Did we ever come to a consensus about what project to do to fulfill the processing goal? I think there was a discussion about whether to do Chicago Phase 4 or Processing Plants, but I don't remember what the thread's conclusion was?
There's no firm consensus, I think.

However, we have considerable incentive to use our Infrastructure dice for 'boring' projects that increase Housing and Logistics right now. We're burning through Housing at -10 per turn for the refugees and we have no idea when that will stop because we have like 100,000,000 people to house. And our most efficient means of creating Housing, along with one of our favorite means of creating Food, cost Logistics.

We're currently braced for another 30 'units' of Logistics over the course of this year. At current rates, that means we need +30 Housing and +15 Food. Which means five phases of apartments, which means -10 Logistics over the course of the year. And while to some extent we can hope to claw back some Logistics from the war effort winding down and hopefully many of the Nod raiders pulling in their horns... Well, we should do some +Logistics projects.

So there's plenty of reasons to want to use Infrastructure dice for 'normal' things that it excels at (Housing and Logistics) rather than doing a small megaproject at 550 Progress that gives us a surge of Capital Goods (which are nice, but not something we need), Consumer Goods (ditto), and refining cap (which we need, but can easily get with Tiberium dice, which we have plenty of and aren't required to spend on anything that's going to cause immediate problems if we don't get it).

...

Had a thought.

@Ithillid , our actual population is increasing significantly. And it's clear that now that apartment phases cost -2 Logistics, new housing is being constructed on the outskirts of existing Blue Zone cities to house everyone. Back during the First Plan there was a systematic effort to reconstruct urban mass transit. Now that some of these cities are actually growing, will we see a specifically targeted Urban Metros Phase 4 action to expand mass transit links within and around the cities themselves? It seems the obvious thing to do, because it would tend to directly offset the -Logistics costs of the apartment phases by creating new light rail, subway, and bus connections to tie those far-flung apartment complexes back into the urban areas they surround.

In general, my preference is more processing plants. Primarily to reduce our dependence on the two processing cities, especially as we haven't rolled the first phase of SADN out yet and our naval logistics are still poorly secured.
The "single point vulnerability" aspect of Chicago is definitely something we should be concerned about until the SADN rollout covers those areas, yes. While we've largely pushed Gideon's forces out of easy striking range of the city, he could still pop it with a nuclear cruise missile if we wanted to put in the effort.

@Simon_Jester
I like the plan, but i think not putting one die on Bogatyr is a mistake.
We are on a timer with it, and might well need two dice, so getting one die out of the way now to get treasury involved early seems like a very good idea to me.
My priority in this plan draft is to get as many actual Plan goals out of the way as possible, as quickly as possible, in a way that makes it at least plausible to have all Plan goals finished by the end of Q3, barring the ones likely to be the thorniest.

This plan sets us up to be in a better position to have a Bogatyr die in Q3 or Q4. Earlier iterations of my 2061Q2 plan draft had a Bogatyr die, but it was subsequently removed. I have my reasons. If I had to pick a die to sacrifice, it'd be one of the OSRCT dice, one of the Seattle dice (I'd be loath to do that), or the second New York die (which may prove redundant and unnecessary depending on the outcome of the Natural 1, or may not).
 
Yeah I'm heavily favoring another round of distributed processing plants for our processing target rather than Chicago. It's logistically easier in the fluff to build new, smaller plants where we've got bottlenecks rather than shipping raw Tiberium to giant heavily concentrated megacities on the other side of the planet, and a dozen distributed processing plants are harder to kill than one single city. Gideon already tried to destroy Chicago once and only failed because he lost the dice rolls. Ditto with Mehretu and the Jeddah complex. I would like to move away from the planned cities as much as we can, at least until SADN is up and even once SADN is rolled out it's still not impenetrable.

We're going to need the extra processing cap from the Tiberium processing plants anyways, just because our target calls for 280 more doesn't mean that's all the cap we need. We can easily expect hundreds of points of new Tiberium income over the next 18 months between tendrils, claws, and spamming the shit out of Red Zone operations to rebuild our budget in 2062. Having a big processing cap buffer lined up by the end of 2061 is going to be important for making sure the 2062 income sprint can proceed without needing to slow down and build more refineries when we're low on budget.
 
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I'm the person who suggested the tib spikes as a project. Following from the scrin growth accelerator in game that gives them a resource trickle.

And I kind of have to point out. We've built very few/no tib inhibitors. So maybe build more of them first if the goal is better tiberium abatement.

The enhanced tib spikes on the other hand were suggested off the idea of. "These spikes are giving us a slow trickle of money. Is there any way to make that faster without the tib going out of control?"

Yeah and I'm arguing that any method by which we can integrate a Tiberium Growth Accelerator into our Tiberium Spikes to give us more Tiberium is a method we can exaptate into integrating Tiberium Inhibitors into our Tiberium Spikes to give us less Tiberium and Edit: give us some amount of Abatement instead.

I'm thinking a replacement of the current Tiberium Inhibitor action for Blue, and maybe Yellow, Zones.
 
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Yeah I'm heavily favoring another round of distributed processing plants for our processing target rather than Chicago. It's logistically easier in the fluff to build new, smaller plants where we've got bottlenecks rather than shipping raw Tiberium to giant heavily concentrated megacities on the other side of the planet...
To be fair, by convenient coincidence, Chicago is right next to one of the few places on the planet where the Green Zones touch the Red. Which means that pretty soon, we're going to have multiple Red Zone Border Offensives and Super-Glacier Mines funneling insane quantities of tiberium back to refineries in BZ-2... and Chicago is very well placed for that.

Likewise, the Medina-Jeddah refinery complex is processing all the tiberium from several major glacier mine sites, so it's at least not useless for that purpose.

On the other hand, you're not wrong that in general we want to continue to expand generalized global refinery capacity, since we do so much mining that isn't in those particular places. For instance, we're going to have an entire new wave of intense tiberium mining going on in the Australian Outback, and the refinery complexes to support that alone would probably need to be something on the order of 200-300 points of processing at minimum.

And for now at least, there's no planned city to cover that.

I'd prefer Chicago simply because I want to finish Chicago. City capstones are a big deal.
The thing is, finishing Chicago is already a "next Plan" option; we cannot realistically afford to complete Chicago Phase 5 under present conditions, until the refugee wave dies down and we restabilize our Housing and Logistics situation. Phase 4 is at least an option and would help, but it's going to have to get done one way or the other.

Meanwhile, it is very likely that we can/will get "Chicago Planned City Phase 4+5" as a Plan commitment soon.

I'm not saying I'm against it, but the only way I can see it being really viable is if the refugee flow begins to slow down in 'Q3 or 'Q4 and we aren't needing about two apartment phases per turn of new Housing construction just to keep up with rising demand.
 
Just throwing this out there but should we try to finish the Tiberium Processing Refits to get it out of the way?
There are arguments for both 'yes' and 'no.' On the one hand, it's appealing and it gives us a little +STU. On the other hand, we're on the cusp of developing the improved Hewlett-Gardner process, so we're going to want to refit those same refineries all over again in a fairly short time. Arguably, just leaving them to run the old-fashioned way for now is more cost-effective.

The catch is that if we're not going for Chicago Phase 4, there is very little incentive for us to finish the refits except on general principles. Because while Chicago Phase 4 plus refits just scrapes us in barely over the refining cap target... building another phase of actual refineries gets us well over the target whether we do those refits or not.
 
Why are our counter insurgency forces so useless against the Shadow Warriors? Gideon saved himself because we cpuldnt close the lines as his subtle operators helped to neuter Indianopolis' defenses. Like do we have any stealth units or special ops at all. NOD seems to always win these i filtration and sabotage things. And InOps is absolutely useless in funding saboteurs and assasins until after they have acted.

And is there a reason why we arent using Tiberium shard bombs ourselves on NOD bases and population centers in retaliation to Gideon's Tib fuckery?
 
Why are our counter insurgency forces so useless against the Shadow Warriors? Gideon saved himself because we cpuldnt close the lines as his subtle operators helped to neuter Indianopolis' defenses. Like do we have any stealth units or special ops at all. NOD seems to always win these i filtration and sabotage things. And InOps is absolutely useless in funding saboteurs and assasins until after they have acted.

And is there a reason why we arent using Tiberium shard bombs ourselves on NOD bases and population centers in retaliation to Gideon's Tib fuckery?
A large chunk of it is confirmation bias. When counter-insurgency goes to plan, nothing bad happens and the Treasury hears 'Nothing important to report, we're doing fine.' because GDI has gotten good at that due to necessity. There's nothing interesting to write or read about that. When things do go wrong, its usually because something important to the Treasury or GDI at large got blown up, so we do hear about it. When you only hear the bad news and not the good news, that's a skewed view of things.
 
Like Decim said, it's mostly just a sampling bias in what makes it to our desk. But even among on-screen incidents, the Brotherhood doesn't "always win," they don't even mostly win. Just over the course of the past couple years that I can remember off the top of my head:

1) We captured a Shadow Team and shook them upside down until all their tech fell out before the war.
2) A whole string of failed assassinations before the war.
3) The intelligence coup of the century that let us flip the tables on the Brotherhood with Steel Vanguard. This is a real big one.
4) Mehretu and Reynaldo whiffing the majority of their assassination attempts during the war.
5) The Remembrancers getting detected and chased away from the Bogatyr.
6) The Remembrancers getting detected and chased away from the portal facility.
7) Failing half of their recent assassination attempts, yeah they bagged two politicians but they also missed Stavrakas and Crucible.

And that's just what I can recall offhand from recent events without going back and re-reading old updates
 
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If we're discussing NODs ability infiltration and sabotage should we not work towards things like Advanced ECCM Development to counter jamming and Stealth Disruptor Development to impact their stealth abilities?
 
It's also their whole general gimmick. Huge part of NOD's gameplan is sneaking behind and doing sneaky stuff, because GDI's is fighting straight wars

And we won the last 3(4 if you count regency war) wars. Both factions have their own advantages, and saying NOD is cheating bevause they are good at their thing, would be the same as removing GDI's bonuses in battle, making it so we would lose a ton more open fighting

Inops stops a ton of NOD shennaigangs but they will never be able to fully stop NOD, because that's kinda how this universe is made, yea?
 
Also, in regards to tib shard bombs and other WMDs, GDI prides itself on having the moral high ground. Using WMDs, especially on population centers is very much not up for discussion in the Initiative. Additionally the GDI have opinions, to say the least, on tiberium weapons and I can't imagine they'd ever use any even if they had them. Also also Nod can almost certainly make better/more horryfying WMDs than GDI. Any sort of victory for either side would ultimately be hollow if they go all out, but Nod has a (much) lower threshold for limited use than the GDI does.
 
It's also their whole general gimmick. Huge part of NOD's gameplan is sneaking behind and doing sneaky stuff, because GDI's is fighting straight wars

And we won the last 3(4 if you count regency war) wars. Both factions have their own advantages, and saying NOD is cheating bevause they are good at their thing, would be the same as removing GDI's bonuses in battle, making it so we would lose a ton more open fighting

Inops stops a ton of NOD shennaigangs but they will never be able to fully stop NOD, because that's kinda how this universe is made, yea?
Yeah even if we managed to conquer the entire planet, stamp out any organized state-level Brotherhood organization we can find, that doesn't mean they're going to go away. They're gonna have a secret base in Antarctica or at the bottom of the ocean or something, Kane's still holed up in Threshold 19, and the Brotherhood can do "terror cell" just as well as they can do "organized state" (if anything they can do terror cells better). That's their gimmick, they will always have a niche in spooky cloak and dagger shit, and that's fine. We're beating the hell out of them in industrial output and direct firepower, everybody's got their strong suits and on balance ours are working out a lot stronger than theirs.
 
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Count how many turns had the Brotherhood of Nod managing sneaky stuff. Now count how many turns did not. One of those numbers is a lot bigger than the other.
Because a section saying "Nothing happening doodz" is not interesting unless you kicked it off.
 
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful
Seriously whats stopping us from carpet bombing all of South america in a grid pattern with ion cannons from space. We bomb a grid, see if some invisible structure had blocked it, if yes, we keep firing until the shield s are overwhelmed or we move on to another grid.

And we could even throw down nukes from space into the yellow zones, just finishing all the pop centres. Yeah NOD also has nukes but if we seize the initiative and destroy a large part of their nuke launching capabilities, then even if they retaliate with nukes we will only lose a couple of cities in return for decimating NOD forever.
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Also, in regards to tib shard bombs and other WMDs, GDI prides itself on having the moral high ground. Using WMDs, especially on population centers is very much not up for discussion in the Initiative. Additionally the GDI have opinions, to say the least, on tiberium weapons and I can't imagine they'd ever use any even if they had them. Also also Nod can almost certainly make better/more horryfying WMDs than GDI. Any sort of victory for either side would ultimately be hollow if they go all out, but Nod has a (much) lower threshold for limited use than the GDI does.
NOD has already made their horrifying WMDs and they have no compunctions against using them. Meanwhile we are twiddling our thumbs and praying for their mercy and benevolence.
 
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Seriously whats stopping us from carpet bombing all of South america in a grid pattern with ion cannons from space. We bomb a grid, see if some invisible structure had blocked it, if yes, we keep firing until the shield s are overwhelmed or we move on to another grid.

And we could even throw down nukes from space into the yellow zones, just finishing all the pop centres. Yeah NOD also has nukes but if we seize the initiative and destroy a large part of their nuke launching capabilities, then even if they retaliate with nukes we will only lose a couple of cities in return for decimating NOD forever.
Ignoring every other problem with this and just sticking with the purely practical and just off the top of my head: Based on vessels like the Falak, it's entirely possible if not probable that Nod has a small but fully capable fleet of ballistic missile submarines. Suddenly the idea to eliminate all but "a couple" of their launchable nukes seems less achievable, doesn't it?
 
Based on vessels like the Falak, it's entirely possible if not probable that Nod has a small but fully capable fleet of ballistic missile submarines.
More like entirely confirmed. Look at what Bintang bombarded Tokyo with. Remember, she nuked your ships, and conventionally bombarded your cities. There is a reason for that. Namely because it is an open threat that she could have blown every city in the Japanese Blue Zone to cinders if you kept pushing her.
 
Seriously whats stopping us from carpet bombing all of South america in a grid pattern with ion cannons from space. We bomb a grid, see if some invisible structure had blocked it, if yes, we keep firing until the shield s are overwhelmed or we move on to another grid.

And we could even throw down nukes from space into the yellow zones, just finishing all the pop centres. Yeah NOD also has nukes but if we seize the initiative and destroy a large part of their nuke launching capabilities, then even if they retaliate with nukes we will only lose a couple of cities in return for decimating NOD forever.
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NOD has already made their horrifying WMDs and they have no compunctions against using them. Meanwhile we are twiddling our thumbs and praying for their mercy and benevolence.
GDI has principles and morals that it doesn't discard the moment they are put to the test. And that is before we get to all of the impracticalities of actually trying to do what you are suggesting.
 
If..if we suddenly start mass bombing South America, never mind what the rest of GDI is gonna think at this genocidal madman

For one, that seems like a really easy way to commit Kane's tiberium explosion electric bogolo 2.0, due to how sheer range of what we'd be hitting and in rapid succesion.

Secondly...the uh..The rest of NOD isn't blind, they are gonna see GDI suddenly going full mad man mode and realize they are next on the list, and retaliate.

That just seems like a really easy way to kill of humanity, with only Kane and elite NOD surviving due to literally being phased put of reality, and even then that.isn't fully sure
 
More like entirely confirmed. Look at what Bintang bombarded Tokyo with. Remember, she nuked your ships, and conventionally bombarded your cities. There is a reason for that. Namely because it is an open threat that she could have blown every city in the Japanese Blue Zone to cinders if you kept pushing her.
So we will just let her have her free reign because she has nukes and we neither have the ships (and absolutely 0 submarines for some reason) nor the will to stop her from freely raiding us of all the materials she needs to expand and build herself into a massive threat that will actually nuke our cities once she is unstoppable?
 
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