Any idea how to tackle Tib refinement goal?

I see 2 ways - 2nd stage of processing facilities or Chicago 4+Processing refits.

Both are -4 Energy, so which poison do we pick?
 
Any idea how to tackle Tib refinement goal?

I see 2 ways - 2nd stage of processing facilities or Chicago 4+Processing refits.

Both are -4 Energy, so which poison do we pick?

I'd go Chicago.

We can only have two planned cities at a time so we need to finish it at some point if we want to make more. Plus the cities are supposed to have interesting capstone bonuses. Like our Mecca one causing the local nod group to declare independence in all but name.
 
I respect that, but I'm just saying, where are we gonna get Political Support from?
Given the power situation, we might not need to pay the political costs. Nothing to bet on, but it's a possibility.
Any idea how to tackle Tib refinement goal?

I see 2 ways - 2nd stage of processing facilities or Chicago 4+Processing refits.

Both are -4 Energy, so which poison do we pick?
Chicago, it support Steel Vanguard and the head of the Initiative wants it complete for her political agenda.
 
With
I would go with Medical Supplies Factories 129/225 1 die 20R 44% and two dice on the Macrospinner as overflow on the Macrospinner will go to phase 5 but any overflow on Medical Supplies has less impact on the treasury.
As with Neural Interfaced Operating Theaters 122/160 (1 Die, 20 R) (100% chance) we can risk a 44% of completion to get a better odds on getting energy and capital goods from the Macrospinner
See, if we were just trying to make Number Go Up with maximal efficiency you'd be absolutely right.

But we have an actual crisis situation on the health care front what with the war and the flood of refugees coming into our territory and needing medical care. Over the course of 2060Q1, our Health indicator dropped from +11 to +2, and none of the reasons it went to +2 are likely to get any better in 2060Q2. They may even get worse and tip us into the negatives.

So we have an actual strategic reason to rush these projects into completion, even at the cost of suboptimal dice efficiency. Furthermore, the extra dice being spent are in Light Industry and Services, two areas where we have no mandatory Plan commitments. Except under weird circumstances, it doesn't actually hurt us if Reykjavik doesn't complete for another quarter, and we could really use Bergen if it does anything good for our fusion plants because we're hard up for Energy.

I'm hoping more stuff shows up that would be acceptable during wartime. That or completing plan goals or finishing long term projects.

Not really a lot there at the moment.
I hope so, but my point is that we don't actually have a plan for this right now, so we need to at least consider the options we know we have. The three big +PS projects still on offer that can be completed in a reasonable span of time, without hurting ourselves by fucking up our Orbital commitments somehow, are:

1) Ranching Domes (uses scarce Agriculture dice and potentially precious Food)
2) Domestic Sports (-1 Health, questionable during wartime)
3) Wadmalaw Kudzu Phase 3 (already baked into my plan)

I think it was mentioned the only materials being sent from earth now were rare minerals. Maybe a phase of mining that for material independence of earth?
First, there are so many different rare materials that no reasonable amount of moon mining gets all of them.

Second, independence of Earth is a chimerical goal for our space program at the moment because we have neither food production nor permanent habitation in space. Talk to me about it after we do Shala and Columbia.

Third, Rare Metals Mines produce limited +RpT income per die invested and are thus less efficient. I'm hoping to save them for the end of the Plan, whereas right now I'm hoping to actually enrich Treasury and be able to reinvest the profits from our own efforts to fulfill our commitments.

That said, I'm not 100% opposed to doing rare metals as opposed to regollith or heavy metals. I just don't think it's a top priority.

Given the power situation, we might not need to pay the political costs. Nothing to bet on, but it's a possibility.
No.

Real talk, we're not going to get a phase of tiberium power without at least a -5 PS hit. Us needing the power is, to the politicians in question and to the public, just proof that we failed to plan ahead by building enough fusion reactors to not need hazardous and deeply questionable tiberium power. They're still going to be pissed, and we're still going to look stupid.

And remember, we don't lose Political Support because we did bad things. We lose it when we do something that makes us look wasteful, reckless, or stupid.

Chicago, it support Steel Vanguard and the head of the Initiative wants it complete for her political agenda.
This is why I put a few dice on Chicago in my last plan. But I can't easily fit it into this plan without giving up the overall Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting target, which I would prefer not to give up as a whole.

Though I'm persuadable. It would help if I had a better sense for how much impact Chicago would have on the North American part of Steel Vanguard, as opposed to how much impact the general harvesting push is having locally, but that may be too much to ask...
 
Then, When do we start Chicago?

We can probably finish Chicago 4 in 7-10 dices. We can throw 4-5 dices at it in Q2 and finish it in Q3.

Slow walking or delaying it is possible, but, personally, I want it done ASAP, especially since overall plan for 2061 is somewhat undecided.
 
Second, independence of Earth is a chimerical goal for our space program at the moment because we have neither food production nor permanent habitation in space. Talk to me about it after we do Shala and Columbia.

Sorry, I may have phrased that poorly.

I didn't mean actual independence. Just that the rare stuff from earth was the only thing keeping enterprise from manufacturing anything it wants independent of earth material supplies.

Definitely still need food and such.
 
Then, When do we start Chicago?

We can probably finish Chicago 4 in 7-10 dices. We can throw 4-5 dices at it in Q2 and finish it in Q3.

Slow walking or delaying it is possible, but, personally, I want it done ASAP, especially since overall plan for 2061 is somewhat undecided.
"I want it done ASAP" is counterproductive right now.

When it comes to stuff that actually needs Tiberium dice, we have very light Plan commitments left to worry about. Our priorities should be:

1) Supporting Steel Vanguard and recovering territory from Nod.
2) Increasing tiberium mitigation on general principles.
3) Making sure we don't forget and somehow fail to hit our Plan targets, unlikely though that may be.

Rushing Chicago isn't necessarily a good way to achieve that combination of goals, as compared to continuing Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting.

Remember that there is little or no reward for hitting our targets early. What matters right now is that we do whatever is best for GDI in general, whether or not it alligns with the Plan targets. So unless Chicago Phase 4 is clearly better for the Plan than continued yellow zone harvesting expansions... Chicago can, in principle, wait.

Sorry, I may have phrased that poorly.

I didn't mean actual independence. Just that the rare stuff from earth was the only thing keeping enterprise from manufacturing anything it wants independent of earth material supplies.

Definitely still need food and such.
1) What is the real value of making this happen, if Enterprise is still reliant on shipments of food and other supporting things from the surface anyway? We don't really have shortages of those metals on Earth, thanks to tiberium, and they're not needed in large enough amounts to tie up much of our space launch capability. Is this about actual economic benefit? Or is this about being able to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves we have done it?

2) Again, doing rare metals mining on the moon doesn't mean we get every chemical element Enterprise could need. There is no guarantee that mines supplying everything on the periodic table will be available. Therefore, even if there is a reason to fulfill the goal you cite, we may not be able to do it in the manner that you cite.

We'll realistically be doing the rare metals mining soon enough, but it's not a good idea to do it for its own sake, for the sake of being able to congratulate ourselves over a "landmark achievement" that is relevant only in our own imagination.

Space industry and population won't be a self-sustaining community for a long time. We're nowhere near the stage where it's doing anyone (including the space industry people) a favor to shift our focus to "autonomy from Earth" rather than "maximum overall development."
 
Or is this about being able to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves we have done it?

That pretty much. One of the updates mentioned it and we have the option to mine for rare stuff on the moon so...

It's not a big deal and not really something I care about besides mentioning it.

I suppose there might be some hidden bonus that triggers for enterprise when it doesn't need earth to manufacture goods but I don't know what it would be.
 
That pretty much. One of the updates mentioned it and we have the option to mine for rare stuff on the moon so...

It's not a big deal and not really something I care about besides mentioning it.

I suppose there might be some hidden bonus that triggers for enterprise when it doesn't need earth to manufacture goods but I don't know what it would be.
It's possible, but right now our situation in Orbital is a bit tight for us to be doing things for the sake of being able to say that we have done them. And we could use some more RpT in the budget, though the situation is pretty good.
 
If next turn the Reduction in plan commitments still cost around 25 Political support for the 4 bureau dices we shouldn't shy away from starting Shala and Columbia before we're done with Enterprise. Even if it isn't the perfect planning that we had for our orbital station building we have already done a lot to optimize it. It's still points toward our plan goals too so we don't even need to find extra dices to put there.
 
Then, When do we start Chicago?
I would totally do it at the same time as Karachi, but I'm evil...

-[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 4) 514/640 (1 Die, 20 R) (14% chance)
-[] Medical Supplies Factories 129/225 (2 Dice, 40 R) (95% chance)
-[] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 1) 0/95 (2 Dice, 60 R) (95% chance)
We get more Energy for completing Reykjavik 4 than we do for Bergen 1, so why?

-[] Escort Carrier Shipyards (Battleship Yards) 0/120 (2 Dice, 40 R) (87% chance)
I don't really see the point of this. Expecting any reasonable production of Carriers when these Yards would be doing repairs due to the increased fighting seems unreasonable.
Any Carriers built still need an suitable drydock for maintenance, and reusing other docks is just going to cause even bigger problems later.
 
Unless stuff goes really really wrong for us at some point I'm completely confident in our ability to build Karachi.
It's not just doing it, it's doing it in a way that doesn't have our navy or naval supply lines getting gutted in the process. We could probably go and do Karachi in the next turn or two if we really wanted to. It's just that the negative repercussions of doing that right now vastly outweigh the positives.
 
Unless stuff goes really really wrong for us at some point I'm completely confident in our ability to build Karachi.
I'm not. I think the navy is likely to be screaming at us us if we try in 2061.

I quite like Simon's preemptive plans from a first look, i'd ideally prefer us to negotiate karachi now rather than later and i'd prefer an extra dice in frigates if possible but it's definitely a plan i could vote for
 
No.

Real talk, we're not going to get a phase of tiberium power without at least a -5 PS hit. Us needing the power is, to the politicians in question and to the public, just proof that we failed to plan ahead by building enough fusion reactors to not need hazardous and deeply questionable tiberium power. They're still going to be pissed, and we're still going to look stupid.

And remember, we don't lose Political Support because we did bad things. We lose it when we do something that makes us look wasteful, reckless, or stupid.
I hate that you're right, but you are right.

Maybe there's hope if we can do well with the food situation. Get far enough ahead of that and Kudzu becomes possible, which has some serious benefits. Political Support and extra dice to throw around, gotta love it.
 
If next turn the Reduction in plan commitments still cost around 25 Political support for the 4 bureau dices we shouldn't shy away from starting Shala and Columbia before we're done with Enterprise. Even if it isn't the perfect planning that we had for our orbital station building we have already done a lot to optimize it. It's still points toward our plan goals too so we don't even need to find extra dices to put there.
No, actually, we do. The big bottleneck for our Orbital plans is that we committed to finishing Enterprise along with the moon mining. The "must build 6000 points of stations" is already fulfilled by finishing Enterprise, so work done on another, entirely different station isn't actually contributing to our promises.

Now, I'm not saying you're wrong about the conclusion, but our ability to complete the Orbital goals is still very tight, and any effort to work on Shala or Columbia would have to be supported by Free dice.

Why are we reducing commitments?

Looks like we can still hit everything.
Karachi may be impossible due to the military situation, including but not limited to the bad naval situation caused by our failure to build warships well in advance.

The Consumer Goods target may be hard to hit depending on exactly how things play out, because our expectation of hitting the target was always contingent on the private sector not collapsing into burning rubble. I haven't run an analysis on that. @doruma1920 has, here, and thinks we're okay, but I'm not sure I fully understand their assumptions, so I'm not sure what to make of things.

The Capital Goods target should be hit (and we need the Capital Goods!), but may be tricky given the need to shovel a LOT of dice into fusion power to keep all our war factories humming along and build new ones.

And the Stored Food target... well that one's just a massive monkey wrench in the works, from the point of view of us trying to feed the refugee wave.

See, when that requirement was imposed, it was the legislature asking us to prepare GDI to refight the previous Tiberium Wars, where Nod went on the rampage, fucked up agriculture, and left us all eating fungus bars. The idea this time was to stash enough canned beans and vegetarian spam and whatever that we wouldn't be forced to resort to fungus bars. And what we would have had to do to fulfill that dream of never eating a fungus bar again was to grow a huge amount of surplus Food (+40, maybe +30 with the freeze-drying plants in place?), and build giant repositories to store a jillion tons of canned beans and whatnot, then store the surplus Food in those repositories.

Which we could have done, and in theory could still do...

But there's a problem. Or rather, good news that complicates the plan.

...

See, instead of the Fourth Tiberium War starting with Nod rampaging all over GDI's territory, like GDI planned, GDI had the brainwave idea to Uno reverse card that arrangement. How about we go on the rampage all over their territory, instead? And so far, it's mostly mostly working, unless of course you are Stahl.

Which means two things:

1) The plan to stockpile a jillion tons of canned beans is now probably redundant.
Nod is on the back foot in the wider world as a whole, they are not forcing us to dig into stockpiles of canned beans. By the time this war is over, Nod will be all tuckered out and unlikely to be able to force us to dig into giant food stockpiles, at least in the immediate future. While stashing all that food away still wouldn't be a bad thing as such, the grim reality of war experience that motivated the legislature to tell us to do it... has changed. War. War has changed. Vegetarian spam repositories may not be required.

2) Refugees hunger for beans.
We have an unknown but potentially huge number of Yellow Zoners who are about to become Green and/or Blue Zoners. Like, we don't even know how many. Could conceivably be fifty or a hundred million. Partly, that's the people whose homes we straight-up conquer back from Nod. Partly, that's the people who come to us now that the front lines have advanced and are all like "please let us crash on your couch where there is Internet access and no loose tiberium under the sofa cushions." But all those refugees need Housing and Food, which means our numbers go down, which means to make our numbers go back up we need to keep our Housing and Food surpluses strong. Now, Housing is kind of its own problem, but with Food? Food for refugees competes very specifically with Food to be shoveled into the stockpile. Remember that +30 or +40 Food surplus we'd need to gobble up to turn into Stored Food at a 2:1 (maybe 3:2 with freeze drying plants?) ratio? Yeah, that would feed a lot of refugees. Dunno how many.

...

So when all is said and done, we could be a lot more confident in our ability to feed the refugees (and also in our ability to do Cool Shit like build the third phase of Wadmalaw Kudzu Plantations for universal +1 to all dice, or invent the poulticeplant), if we didn't have that Stored Food requirement hanging over us.
 
We get more Energy for completing Reykjavik 4 than we do for Bergen 1, so why?
Because starting Bergen and getting it up to Phase 2 may, may enable us to research more efficient fusion reactors, and because Bergen has much better ramp-up potential. Reykjavik Phase 4 doesn't really do anything for us that we need, only things we want, so I'm willing to slow-walk it while starting the next important project. On the other hand, I wouldn't actually downvote a plan that puts off Bergen for one more turn in order to concentrate on finishing the current phase of Reykjavik, as long as the plan was otherwise likeable.

I don't really see the point of this. Expecting any reasonable production of Carriers when these Yards would be doing repairs due to the increased fighting seems unreasonable.
The Navy expects it to work; I believe them. The Navy doesn't have as many battleships as it used to (I don't think we've actually built any since Tib War III unless I'm misremembering). The Navy isn't planning to build more. And with the laser point defense refits and availability of Governors to back up the battleships with tighter air defense, I figure that battleships aren't getting damaged as often.

If the Navy thinks it's worthwhile to refit battleship construction docks into light carrier construction docks because they need that light carrier in two years more than they need a battleship repair berth open for two years, I believe 'em.

Also, it's a cheap enough project that I can plausibly squeeze it in while still doing most of the work on a second frigate yard, without too badly stinting the Air Force. That's a tricky balancing act. Right now, I want the second frigate yard more than I want a light carrier yard, but I really want a light carrier yard, so being able to allocate dice to both projects matters to me.

Any Carriers built still need an suitable drydock for maintenance, and reusing other docks is just going to cause even bigger problems later.
By the time those light carriers (they're bigger than the originally planned escort carriers, about 50% larger) are in need of repairs, there will be actual dedicated light carrier shipyards for them to go into.

The Navy knows how many battleship docks it has left. If they didn't want us to do this, really didn't, then we wouldn't have the option, or the Navy would be busting our gonads about it enough to give it a Political Support cost. I'm pretty sure this was their idea in the first place, so I'm going for it.

Unless stuff goes really really wrong for us at some point I'm completely confident in our ability to build Karachi.
I'm not.

If the naval situation is unfavorable- and we have no reason to expect it to be good- then it's going to be very hard to implement Operation Eastern Paris and build Karachi. If the war goes well and if, in particular, Bintang is knocked back and we don't take heavy fleet losses and Nod commerce raiding elsewhere in the world is softened up, then we can reasonably hope to do Karachi.

Otherwise, we have the engineering capacity to build Karachi- the necessary dice and resource budget- but we don't have the military means to occupy and defend the construction site while we're doing the work.

This is further complicated by the monsoon season, which makes Q3 a bad time to build anything in or around Karachi.

I quite like Simon's preemptive plans from a first look, i'd ideally prefer us to negotiate karachi now rather than later and i'd prefer an extra dice in frigates if possible but it's definitely a plan i could vote for
The big problem there is that to shake loose another die for frigates, I have to:

1) Short the Firehawk wingman drones, which I really want to be confident of finishing next turn, or
2) Give up on converting the battleship yards for light carriers this turn.
3) Take free dice away from Heavy Industry, which is a bad choice and we already did that in Q2 and now we're paying for it.

I don't like any of those options...

I hate that you're right, but you are right.

Maybe there's hope if we can do well with the food situation. Get far enough ahead of that and Kudzu becomes possible, which has some serious benefits. Political Support and extra dice to throw around, gotta love it.
We know how much PS there is from going back to the kudzu well. Ten points. At this point I'm already assuming we can get it... but we've got up to 34 PS to spend in the near future, we're only at 72 right now, so even with that, we're up to 48 PS. Not terrible, but not good.
 
Also, given the combined PS costs of the merchant conversions and the probable Plan renegotiation, we don't have a lot of leeway left in Political Support. Like, I hate to do Domestic Sports Teams in wartime, but we may honestly need the +PS once we get the next round of +Health infrastructure online. The only other good target is Ranching Domes and Agriculture dice are scarce and we need the actual Food.

I respect that, but I'm just saying, where are we gonna get Political Support from?

Blue Zone MARV hubs.

It supports Autumn Archer and gets us a bunch of political support.
 
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