Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
So, these plans went through some workshopping on discord, following four ideas in varying amounts:
1: Orbital cache is higher priority than SADS. Desperate small fries not having missiles to throw is better than blocking them in a pittance of places a few turns from now.
2: CVEs are a waste of time right now because of their lead time, while frigates can be online in time to help in this current war.
3 (even more and MORE): We can shoot for two frigate yards at once and have an 87% chance of completing at least one, and a 40.69% chance of completing both.
4 (MORE): Forts are super important, yo. Important enough to drop plasma warheads though? You decide.
Also, these plans do better on health than some of the leaders as well. Overall, they're a step up and I hope you'll throw some votes their way.
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
So, these plans went through some workshopping on discord, following four ideas in varying amounts:
1: Orbital cache is higher priority than SADS. Desperate small fries not having missiles to throw is better than blocking them in a pittance of places a few turns from now.
2: CVEs are a waste of time right now because of their lead time, while frigates can be online in time to help in this current war.
3 (even more and MORE): We can shoot for two frigate yards at once and have an 87% chance of completing at least one, and a 40.69% chance of completing both.
4 (MORE): Forts are super important, yo. Important enough to drop plasma warheads though? You decide.
Also, these plans do better on health than some of the leaders as well. Overall, they're a step up and I hope you'll throw some votes their way.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Rolling on with added navy funding
Resources: 935 + 30 in reserve (15 allocated to the Forgotten) (35 allocated to grants)(+25 from Taxes)
Infrastructure 6/6 dice 110R
-[X] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 4) 232/250 3 dice 60R 100%
-[X] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 2) 159/300 2 die 30R 84%
-[X] Tick Rapid Digger System Development 0/40 1 die 20R 100%
Heavy Industry 5/5 dice +3 free dice 170R
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 6) 1/300 3 dice 60R
-[X] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 3) 118/600 3 free dice 60R
-[X] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Development 0/80 1 die 10R 70%
-[X] Isolinear Chip Development 0/60 1 die 40R 90%
Light and Chemical Industry 5/5 dice 100R
-[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 4) 378/640 2 dice 40R
-[X] Medical Supplies Factories 0/225 3 dice 60R 60%
Agriculture 4/4 dice 60R
-[X] Blue Zone Aquaponics Bays (Phase 2) 3/140 2 dice 20R 74%
-[X] Freeze Dried Food Plants 73/200 2 dice 40R 80%
Tiberium 7/7 dice 135R
-[X] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 7) 181/300 4 dice 80R 97%
-[X] Intensification of Green Zone Harvesting (Stage 5) 63/200 1 die 15R 99%
-[X] Railgun Harvester Factories (Dandong) 45/70 1 die 10R 99%
-[X] Harvesting Tendril Development 0/40 1 die 30R 99%
Orbital 6/6 dice 110R
-[X] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 4) 456/765 5 dice 100R 96%
-[X] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 9) 41/85 1 dice 10R 98%
Services 1/5 die 30R
-[X] Hallucinogen Development 0/60 2 dice 30R 100%
Military 8/8 dice +4 free dice 245R
-[X] Apollo Wingmen Drones 0/210 3 dice 60R 75%
-[X] Escort Carrier Shipyards (Battleship Yards) 0/120 2 free dice 40R 87%
-[X] Shark Class Frigate Shipyards (Quanset Point) 0/300 4 dice 80R +1 free die 93%
-[X] Neural Interface System Refits (Talons) 83/105 1 die 25R 100%
-[X] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 1) 0/350 1 free dice 20R
Bureaucracy 4/4
-[X] Request Reduction in Plan Commitments (Karachi) DC 120/160/200/240, DC 240 4 dice 24 PS 89%
Used:
960/965R
Hits out carriers for a delayed Karachi, hits out a frigate yard and starts wingman deployment. I've also chosen to slow-roll SADN to get it through while still hitting our other priorities. Also touches on Iso chips, industrial lasers and harvesting tendrils.
Services is a bit bare I know but there's a lot of things that will be useful in the near future or are needed now that cost a lot to start work on so it was mostly sacrificed.
And yes, Karachi is getting delayed because I don't care if one engineer throws a fit over their pet project being pushed back during a war. It's either thousands of personnel dying because the navy won't be ready to support Karachi or less dying because we can actually detach the naval units needed to cover the landings properly. Not to mention that the Karachi landings were only supported by the army and are part of an entire offensive plan we didn't take.
[X] Plan No think, Just do
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
Resources: 935 + 30 in reserve (15 allocated to the Forgotten) (35 allocated to grants)(+25 from Taxes)
Infrastructure 6/6 dice 110R
-[X] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 4) 232/250 3 dice 60R 100%
-[X] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 2) 159/300 2 die 30R 84%
-[X] Tick Rapid Digger System Development 0/40 1 die 20R 100%
Heavy Industry 5/5 dice +3 free dice 170R
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 6) 1/300 3 dice 60R
-[X] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 3) 118/600 3 free dice 60R
-[X] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Development 0/80 1 die 10R 70%
-[X] Isolinear Chip Development 0/60 1 die 40R 90%
Light and Chemical Industry 5/5 dice 100R
-[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 4) 378/640 2 dice 40R
-[X] Medical Supplies Factories 0/225 3 dice 60R 60%
Agriculture 4/4 dice 60R
-[X] Blue Zone Aquaponics Bays (Phase 2) 3/140 2 dice 20R 74%
-[X] Freeze Dried Food Plants 73/200 2 dice 40R 80%
Tiberium 7/7 dice 135R
-[X] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 7) 181/300 4 dice 80R 97%
-[X] Intensification of Green Zone Harvesting (Stage 5) 63/200 1 die 15R 99%
-[X] Railgun Harvester Factories (Dandong) 45/70 1 die 10R 99%
-[X] Harvesting Tendril Development 0/40 1 die 30R 99%
Orbital 6/6 dice 110R
-[X] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 4) 456/765 5 dice 100R 96%
-[X] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 9) 41/85 1 dice 10R 98%
Services 1/5 die 30R
-[X] Hallucinogen Development 0/60 2 dice 30R 100%
Military 8/8 dice +4 free dice 245R
-[X] Apollo Wingmen Drones 0/210 3 dice 60R 75%
-[X] Escort Carrier Shipyards (Battleship Yards) 0/120 2 free dice 40R 87%
-[X] Shark Class Frigate Shipyards (Quanset Point) 0/300 4 dice 80R +1 free die 93%
-[X] Neural Interface System Refits (Talons) 83/105 1 die 25R 100%
-[X] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 1) 0/350 1 free dice 20R
Bureaucracy 4/4
-[X] Request Reduction in Plan Commitments (Karachi) DC 120/160/200/240, DC 240 4 dice 24 PS 89%
Used:
960/965R
Hits out carriers for a delayed Karachi, hits out a frigate yard and starts wingman deployment. I've also chosen to slow-roll SADN to get it through while still hitting our other priorities. Also touches on Iso chips, industrial lasers and harvesting tendrils.
Services is a bit bare I know but there's a lot of things that will be useful in the near future or are needed now that cost a lot to start work on so it was mostly sacrificed.
And yes, Karachi is getting delayed because I don't care if one engineer throws a fit over their pet project being pushed back during a war. It's either thousands of personnel dying because the navy won't be ready to support Karachi or less dying because we can actually detach the naval units needed to cover the landings properly. Not to mention that the Karachi landings were only supported by the army and are part of an entire offensive plan we didn't take.
[X] Plan No think, Just do
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
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- Location
- The Underdark
This is not how the project works. It is a subvote option in the results phase where I list out all your remaining plan commitments and alternatives/compromises.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I know, it's more to highlight it for people reading it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
So, due to weird sleep hours I've missed everything since shortly before the update posted. It looks like all the leading plans have dropped the conversion carrier idea entirely.
Now, I'm aware that there are arguments like "they're more fragile and vulnerable to getting blown up than our proper fifty-kiloton light carrier design" and "the Navy doesn't want them because they're worried they'll get these instead of proper light carriers, so we shoudn't build 'em."
But I'm sincerely curious, has any new information come to light regarding them that's kept everyone away from the idea? Like, new within the past twelve hours?
I'm going to be going back through the thread and looking at things, but it'll take me a while to catch up with everything that's happened.
Now, I'm aware that there are arguments like "they're more fragile and vulnerable to getting blown up than our proper fifty-kiloton light carrier design" and "the Navy doesn't want them because they're worried they'll get these instead of proper light carriers, so we shoudn't build 'em."
But I'm sincerely curious, has any new information come to light regarding them that's kept everyone away from the idea? Like, new within the past twelve hours?
I'm going to be going back through the thread and looking at things, but it'll take me a while to catch up with everything that's happened.
- Location
- USA
[X] Plan One Step Forward
Information about build times - 18 months minimum as opposed to 9 months minimum for frigates. I still think the battleship docks are worth doing now so they're in the water ASAP, but I agree that a near-term focus on frigates makes sense.
- Location
- canada
That 'one engineer' is the person giving +10 to all infrastructure rolls right? If yes, then wouldn't their opinion very much matter here if they only reason they joined was because Karachi was promised to them? Not upholding it when it IS possible to do seems disingenuous.
I don't get this. If the Navy doesn't have the ships to protect as many convoys then the number of non-essential convoys should just drop, and not let civilian lives be risked by doing the same amount of convoys without sufficient protection. The Logistics should take a hit, not the people.
In fact I am confused by all the implications that somehow by supporting Karachi, the amount of lives will be at risk as opposed to just Logistics by having less convoys that would be allowed to run at a time. Why? Is the military seriously going to allow convoys to go on as before with less protection per each convoy, as opposed to cutting down the number of convoys so each one is protected just as much as before? The excess amount of surplus Logistics isn't THAT important.
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- Location
- The Underdark
That is a misreading. The 18 months is for the proper Escort Carrier class. Not the conversions. Conversions are more or less "in time for a 2061 Karachi" bundle.
I'm referring to the option to build escort carriers using existing battleship shipyards rather than new ones.
Edit: They are shipyards and not docks.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but that wasn't what I was referring to, so it didn't really answer my question. I'd already figured on the light carriers (the purpose-built warship ones the Navy likes better) taking 12+ months to build, and 18 months doesn't surprise me at all.
That's what I'd thought.
Okay, in that case, barring any other surprise revelations, I'm gonna forge ahead and put together some kind of a plan that actually does merchantman conversion carriers. The Navy's arguing against them for reasons I understand and respect, but that I think are in this particular case missing the big picture or (perhaps more understandably) distrusting Treasury and expecting us to foist them off with the conversion carriers in the long run, instead of with the light carriers they actually want.
But given the need for a viable navy with, y'know, enough hulls, I think the merchantman conversions are a practical necessity.
I'm... actually in agreement with Marids here. The question is whether military realities permit this.
The biggest X-factor is, what shape will our navy be in by 2061Q2? If the Navy is in bad enough shape, or struggling to defend against Nod naval raids still, at that time... we may have to call the project off. But that's a year in the future. Right now I think we should still be acting in a way that is good-faith intended to accomplish the goal of being ready for Karachi. If we can't get there, if Nod's naval forces are too strong and all that, then we grit our teeth and face the music.
But we should at least try.
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The consensus seems to be that Karachi 2061 is outright impossible or too risky. I don't think it is if we do carrier conversions, I'm just unsure if it's worth the risk and PS hit.
There are currently no plans with merchantman conversions. It might be welcome.
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
[X] Plan One Step Forward
Voting for this for now as it's the plan I'm currently most supportive of because it probably gives us one Frigate shipyard up and running whilst also giving the Air Force the lasers it needs for Firehawks to at least be competitive again even if it's not as good as giving them the drones. Whilst also rolling out drones for the Apollos so less Firehawks are needed for fighter roles whilst maybe getting plasma warheads so SAMs and AAMs are more dangerous.
Though I'm definitely going to be looking at your plan eagerly Simon, because I've not given up on getting Karachi started this plan. Definitely don't think it'll be the 'Phase 5 done in two quarters' plan that was going around, but I'm willing to bite the bullet and get at least Phase 4 done. Both to achieve Plan Goals, and also because we really, really need to get some damn eyes on whatever the hell is going on in India. The longer we delay that, the more likely something horrifying comes out of there and completely surprises us during this war. Let alone after it.
Voting for this for now as it's the plan I'm currently most supportive of because it probably gives us one Frigate shipyard up and running whilst also giving the Air Force the lasers it needs for Firehawks to at least be competitive again even if it's not as good as giving them the drones. Whilst also rolling out drones for the Apollos so less Firehawks are needed for fighter roles whilst maybe getting plasma warheads so SAMs and AAMs are more dangerous.
Though I'm definitely going to be looking at your plan eagerly Simon, because I've not given up on getting Karachi started this plan. Definitely don't think it'll be the 'Phase 5 done in two quarters' plan that was going around, but I'm willing to bite the bullet and get at least Phase 4 done. Both to achieve Plan Goals, and also because we really, really need to get some damn eyes on whatever the hell is going on in India. The longer we delay that, the more likely something horrifying comes out of there and completely surprises us during this war. Let alone after it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think there's been a panic reaction catalyzed by a few outspoken people on the thread who are persistently against the idea.
If we get some new hulls in the water, and if the overall war situation goes well, we may well be in a position to push for a full Karachi Sprint in 2061Q2. That's a year from now. A lot can happen in a year. Or we might at least be able to push for Phase 4 completion (all we really promised) in 2061Q4, since that IS very much something we can do in a single turn of intensive dice investment.
Who knows, maybe we'll roll another Natural 100, or Bintang will roll a Natural 1.
I want to at least be prepared to try.
Furthermore, even if we don't do Karachi, freeing up fleet carriers for offensive naval action will have a lot of benefits. I'm sure there are plenty of Nod coastal facilities the Navy would be happy to hit if they didn't have all their capital ships tied down covering trans-Atlantic convoys.
The beauty of what @uju32 showed us was possible with the "sprint to Karachi Phase 5 in two turns" is that the same plan is also a road map to sprint to Phase 4 in ONE turn. If we really want to.
i know right
- Location
- his hidden lair
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[X] Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
I'm all for accepting the fact that Karachi is a lost cause. Even the absolute worst case scenario where our engineer leaves and Seo has to step down (hardly likely at this point) is something we can survive if that's what it takes. Now is the time to do what we think is in the best interest of the Initiative, and winning this war- not following through on what were ultimately campaign promises so we can secure our position. Yeah, it's not ideal and it sucks- but unless we think Karachi is the best thing we can be working towards right now (and I'm unconvinced by now), then we need to make our peace and pick our battles elsewhere. Gideon is on the ropes, Stahl is getting dangerous amounts of clout, and Krukov's disposition is likely going to lead to some seriously costly fighting there. Do we want to peel off forces that could reinforce these theatres to open up another one? I'm willing to be convinced, but we're not in a position to hedge our bets here. Either we commit to the idea Karachi will happen, or we pivot.
We don't need to launch a deep strike offensive to regain the initiative, we have the initiative, we just need to hold onto it- and nothing will cost us it quicker than overstretched supply lines and bogged down invasion of Karachi. I think we need to shelve it for the future. We failed to make the proper arrangements, and now every effort we put towards Karachi potentially undermines our efforts to bring down the various warlords we're already grappling with.
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[X] Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
I'm all for accepting the fact that Karachi is a lost cause. Even the absolute worst case scenario where our engineer leaves and Seo has to step down (hardly likely at this point) is something we can survive if that's what it takes. Now is the time to do what we think is in the best interest of the Initiative, and winning this war- not following through on what were ultimately campaign promises so we can secure our position. Yeah, it's not ideal and it sucks- but unless we think Karachi is the best thing we can be working towards right now (and I'm unconvinced by now), then we need to make our peace and pick our battles elsewhere. Gideon is on the ropes, Stahl is getting dangerous amounts of clout, and Krukov's disposition is likely going to lead to some seriously costly fighting there. Do we want to peel off forces that could reinforce these theatres to open up another one? I'm willing to be convinced, but we're not in a position to hedge our bets here. Either we commit to the idea Karachi will happen, or we pivot.
We don't need to launch a deep strike offensive to regain the initiative, we have the initiative, we just need to hold onto it- and nothing will cost us it quicker than overstretched supply lines and bogged down invasion of Karachi. I think we need to shelve it for the future. We failed to make the proper arrangements, and now every effort we put towards Karachi potentially undermines our efforts to bring down the various warlords we're already grappling with.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
See, I'm disagreeing with your conclusion because I don't think your arguments lead to it.
Specifically, because given that we won't even consider pushing Karachi until 2061Q1, needn't consider it until 2061Q2, and can accept an abridged version of our Karachi commitment as late as 2061Q4...
The things that we actually need to do now if we want to be ready for Karachi? They boil down to "build bote." Which we really, really need to do anyway, and will be good for the Initiative anyway, because the Initiative weakness explicitly described as "most likely to force Steel Vanguard to a halt" is our overall lack of naval shipping and naval offensive capability.
We can reassess the situation 3-6 turns from now to see whether the Karachi plan looks good or bad at that time. It's grossly premature to cut that out of our options.
...
But basically, unless you're proposing a plan whereby we build a ton of MARV hubs to fuck over Giddyboy or Stahl or Krukov or whoever... I don't see how the preparations we'd need to make now to stay ready for Karachi differ all that much from the preparations we'd need to make anyway to be effective in the general war.
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[x] Plan No think, Just do
X]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[X]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
[X] Plan One Step Forward
[X] Plan Shipyards, Tech and Industry
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan A Broader Step Forwards
[X] Plan Shipyards, Air Force and Tech
X]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[X]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
[X] Plan One Step Forward
[X] Plan Shipyards, Tech and Industry
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan A Broader Step Forwards
[X] Plan Shipyards, Air Force and Tech
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- Location
- USA
I think we can do Karachi.
I'm just not a fan of the conversions.
If we rush the frigates, buff our air force as much as possible, and max out our logistics, I think we can do it without the conversions.
Like, fairly high confidence.
It would be easier with the conversions but that feels like a price we don't need to pay.
I'm just not a fan of the conversions.
If we rush the frigates, buff our air force as much as possible, and max out our logistics, I think we can do it without the conversions.
Like, fairly high confidence.
It would be easier with the conversions but that feels like a price we don't need to pay.
This may be a bit redundant, but I think it's a good idea to have every point in one place.
The Case For Karachi 2061:
- The only thing we 100% need to do to prepare is build more ships to free up Governors and CVNs from convoy escort. We can do this with the frigate yards and, if necessary, Merchantman Carrier Conversions.
- Naval warfare is already the greatest threat to Steel Vanguard due to supply line disruptions. Notably, the completion of the ICS was stated to have positive effects on marine logistics and naval escort. As Simon pointed out, at this stage, continuing Steel Vanguard and preparing for Eastern Paris aren't very different.
- The reason Karachi is a goal in the first place is due to Arya Gulati, a talented engineer who provides a hefty +10 bonus to all Infrastructure dice.
- From a strategic point of view, a chance to disrupt supply of Gana to the other Warlords is very valuable. The Order's raids on research institutes involved Afancs which were noted to have more intelligent behaviour. Ground Forces believes it's important to stop or slow exports, and we don't want something even worse - say, hallucinogen missiles (this is 100% speculation) - coming out of there.
Edit: Added a line break.
The Case For Karachi 2061:
- The only thing we 100% need to do to prepare is build more ships to free up Governors and CVNs from convoy escort. We can do this with the frigate yards and, if necessary, Merchantman Carrier Conversions.
- Naval warfare is already the greatest threat to Steel Vanguard due to supply line disruptions. Notably, the completion of the ICS was stated to have positive effects on marine logistics and naval escort. As Simon pointed out, at this stage, continuing Steel Vanguard and preparing for Eastern Paris aren't very different.
- The reason Karachi is a goal in the first place is due to Arya Gulati, a talented engineer who provides a hefty +10 bonus to all Infrastructure dice.
- From a strategic point of view, a chance to disrupt supply of Gana to the other Warlords is very valuable. The Order's raids on research institutes involved Afancs which were noted to have more intelligent behaviour. Ground Forces believes it's important to stop or slow exports, and we don't want something even worse - say, hallucinogen missiles (this is 100% speculation) - coming out of there.
Edit: Added a line break.
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