But unless the conversion carriers are hilariously unpopular, like "more unpopular than having Treasury literally adopt a bunch of pet Visceroids," we can manage. We'll take a hit, probably because people are correctly pointing out that the conversions wouldn't be needed if we'd been building escort carriers back when the Navy first prioritized them after the Governor yards were done. But we can take the hit and keep going.

Something I do wanna note is "Easy to say, hard to do."

Sure, would have been nice if we'd done X instead of Y at time Z. But currently because we did a,b, and c instead they are helping us right now. Just something to bear in mind imo. (that we are trying our best and doing reasonably well)
 
Something I do wanna note is "Easy to say, hard to do."

Sure, would have been nice if we'd done X instead of Y at time Z. But currently because we did a,b, and c instead they are helping us right now. Just something to bear in mind imo. (that we are trying our best and doing reasonably well)
I'm aware that we're trying our best.

But one of the recurring problems we have is that the Navy has been chronically weak and struggling throughout the game. We've done things about that, but not so many that the Navy is in good shape.

We'd have other problems if we did build more naval shipyards, but we do, in point of fact, have that particular problem (lack of ships) in the here and now. We're going to be questioned on it. And the rather unpleasant conversation about why we're so hard up for aircraft carriers that we're forced to resort to this shit will definitely cost us some approval among the legislature.

When I say "we're gonna get in trouble because we didn't do X," I don't mean to say we were fools for not doing X. But we did not do X, and the responsibility for any given problem related to GDI's massive planned economy (especially including war production) ultimately lands in Seo's lap.
 
It only hits me now that, unlike Ground forces vehicles and equipment, warships can't be built fast.
Welcome to naval.
There is a reason why we say procurement strategy is naval strategy.
Also expect your current ships in production to become less effective/ more obsolete in comparison to what could be quickly.
 
Yes, I think we will have to order the temporary hulls, otherwise either Karachi or our shipping is bound to end up as a disaster. And i am very much against breaking our word regarding Karachi. We will just have to see just how expensive politically ordering the hulls will be.
 
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I'm a little concerned the proto-plans don't seem to include Bergen. Hasn't it been laid out as narratively necessary for the next tier of Fusion plants (tech level not phase)?

Remember that we have a option to develop cheaper and probably better Zone Armor. We should take that option before doing Zone Armor factories.

My impression was that it would be developing the light zone armor equivalent, not actually a replacement
 
I'm a little concerned the proto-plans don't seem to include Bergen. Hasn't it been laid out as narratively necessary for the next tier of Fusion plants (tech level not phase)?
I think we're trying to wrap up Reykjavik Phase 4 (desired for the Capital Goods and the medium-term goal of building power armor factories) first.

And the sudden huge hit to our Health indicator is causing people to also want to throw dice at the medical supply factories. Put together, those two things mean we kinda end up putting off Bergen another turn.

Also, Bergen is 30 R/die, and our income tends to increase over time. It's the sort of project that's easier to get momentum on towards the end of a Plan, so a bit of delay isn't necessarily a bad thing.

My impression was that it would be developing the light zone armor equivalent, not actually a replacement
Well, it's probably still worth trying before we get into really serious mass production (i.e. make a sincere effort to complete the entire first wave of Ground Force Zone Armor plants). We might do one of the factories without it, but I'd rather not do all of them, simply because if there's a significant cost reduction to be had from the development project, I'll feel pretty stupid for not doing it before building 1200 points worth of factories. :p
 
Reyjavik also has the help with mechs as well and +2 energy is nothing to sneeze at either. But yeah health being stretched changes things.

As of last turn we had 3 +Health options though more may open this turn

Under LCI:
[ ] Civilian Drone Factories (New)
Civilian drones have a large number of potential uses, ranging from rapid delivery of goods, medicines, and simple recreation. While flying a drone is not the same as flying an actual aircraft, it has often been a popular sport, with drone races (both in stock and custom categories) being a fairly popular sport, especially for children.
(Progress 0/380: 10 resources per die) (+2 Logistics, +1 Health, +4 Consumer Goods) (-2 Energy)

[ ] Medical Supplies Factories (New)
Increasing supplies of medicines and more importantly medical supplies like tubing, masks, blood substitutes, liquid bandages and similar is likely to be quite needed during wartime. While GDI currently has enough, demand is expected to spike rapidly, and more supplies will be needed.
(Progress 0/225: 20 resources per die) (+4 Health) (-1 Energy)

Services:
[ ] Automatic Medical Assistants
GDI's medical system is extensive, however it is also significantly overworked. By supplying a number of automated assistants to conduct routine procedures the valuable manpower can be concentrated working on more important and skill based fields.
(Progress 0/300: 20 resources per die) (+2 Health, +4 Labor, -4 Capital Goods, -2 Energy)


Services we have the dice to push auto med (4 for 67%) though it does depend on what new options open up next turn (if we get more +Health and how move the deployment cost of various projects are)
 
Or such is my impression. @Ithillid , would you care to comment about whether I'm reading the naval room here correctly?
Yeah. The concerns are, in order.
1. We really absolutely do not want to be stuck with these things.
2. Losses are going to be high, because flattops are very high priority targets for the Brotherhood.
3. They are not going to be nearly as effective as proper carriers.
4. We really absolutely do not want to be stuck with these things.

So if you build the conversions, and finish the rest of the yards by the end of the plan, or at least by the end of 2063, they will grudgingly accept that needs must.
 
I think we're trying to wrap up Reykjavik Phase 4 (desired for the Capital Goods and the medium-term goal of building power armor factories) first.

And the sudden huge hit to our Health indicator is causing people to also want to throw dice at the medical supply factories. Put together, those two things mean we kinda end up putting off Bergen another turn.

Also, Bergen is 30 R/die, and our income tends to increase over time. It's the sort of project that's easier to get momentum on towards the end of a Plan, so a bit of delay isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah the cost is definitely off-putting and makes it hard to prioritize, but given our constant need to spam more power I think we do need to seriously consider at least some investment (one or two dice?) in the hopes of getting a better cost:power ratio out of future dice.

Well, it's probably still worth trying before we get into really serious mass production (i.e. make a sincere effort to complete the entire first wave of Ground Force Zone Armor plants). We might do one of the factories without it, but I'd rather not do all of them, simply because if there's a significant cost reduction to be had from the development project, I'll feel pretty stupid for not doing it before building 1200 points worth of factories. :p

Heh yeah good point. I was mostly just wanting to point out it smells more like parallel production lines vs a retrofit to me
 
Q1 2060 Results
Resources:‌ ‌930 + 30 ‌in‌ ‌reserve‌ ‌(15‌ ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌the‌ ‌Forgotten)‌ ‌(35 ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌grants)‌(+25 from Taxes)
[ ] Railgun Harvester Factories (Maputo)
(Progress 138/70: 10 resources per die)(-2 Energy) [99]
@Ithillid I missed this earlier, but Maputo's Railgun Harvester Factory should give us +5 RpT. Meaning we should be at 935 RpT with 30R in reserve, not 930.
 
If there is an option for Carrier Conversions in Q2 I say we take it, because we need the hulls now and even if its quicker than building them from scratch its still going to take time. We will also need to finish a Frigate yard and hopefully finish a Wingman Factory or two as well. SADN also needs to be started, but it is unlikely to finish this turn, and I'd be willing to draw a die from it to bring the other three other the finish line.
 
With Gulati, you can do things to make it less problematic, but you have to figure that out and be proactive. And there is leeway for "being in the middle of a war" but that leeway is more "finished the first three phases" rather than "did not start." Because the options are heavily determined by how much good faith you showed her, and words are cheap, actions are not.
 
Im not sure about carrier conversion- doing so would take dice we need to push other projects through (including rolling out shipyards faster). Unless it is made a free action that does not need even 1 dice to activate

edit- more so since you still need hulls to escort the carriers and for patrol groups, would rather just push out escort carrier and frigate shipyards
 
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With Gulati, you can do things to make it less problematic, but you have to figure that out and be proactive. And there is leeway for "being in the middle of a war" but that leeway is more "finished the first three phases" rather than "did not start." Because the options are heavily determined by how much good faith you showed her, and words are cheap, actions are not.

Does that also apply to the rest of our Plan Goals? For example if we miss the Cap Goods by let's say 5 points, or one less Lunar Mine, Parliment is gonna say good enough?
 
Dumbass idea. But what if we look at it in reverse?

Rather than building Karachi to supply the tibetan blue zone. What if we supply Karachi from the blue zone?

I mean, technically speaking Tibet is still supplied through rail links and hasn't been cut off yet.

Depending on how much fortification we put down in the first burst, and how self-sufficient we can make it/tie it to the Himalayas the better right? Long term we'd still want to roll out the navy and everything else. But short term we burst in, make it as self sufficient as possible, try to make a start on those rails to the himalayas. And for anything else burst out a phase of shuttles to keep them supplied in the short term until we've got destroyers/carriers on the way out.

That's not to say delay the navy at all. Just it's a short coastline, we could get a whole bunch of air support in and the like. It doesn't seem totally crazy to me to be able to burst 2-3 phases in karachi to get it started and then from there rely on self sufficiency, air supply, sub-orbital shuttles and working towards rail to BZ-18 all while doing our best to pump up our escorts.
 
I'm probably wrong but we were going to start the Karachi sprint last turn if the war hadn't started right? Even with the navy we had?

So let's just boost the navy, and everything else, as much as we can then go for it the next time the rainy season stops.

Our air force should be a ton better than it was. We have the orbital troops now. Our ground forces are better than ever.

Let's just cover as much as we can then go for it.

I'm not really a fan of the conversions but we could even do that if people really want too.

We could do shuttle logistics as well to ensure the navy has as little to escort as possible to free up ships.

I'm really confident we can get Karachi done.

...as long as some masterstroke doesn't come out of nowhere and wreck us of course.
 
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I think were honorbound (and reliant on Gulati's +10) enough that we have to go for Karachi in early 2061, maaayyyyybe we can push the landings back to Q2 instead of Q1 if we think 3 months more of prep is really worth 3 months less of good weather but we absolutely can't go any later than Q2 2061. The only hulls the navy can have operational by then are frigates and merchant conversion CVE's, so that's what we need to focus on in terms of shipyard build order. We need a bunch of CVL shipyards to be finished by the end of 2061, especially if we're going to be using the merchant conversion CVE's, but in terms of what we build in Q2 of 2060 it should be a frigate rush to try and maximize how many we can have (even if the paint's still wet) by Karachi.
 
So is NOD gonna have some in fighting as we push NOD warlords out of there territory and into a other NOD warlord territory?
 
We need a bunch of CVL shipyards to be finished by the end of 2061, especially if we're going to be using the merchant conversion CVE's, but in terms of what we build in Q2 of 2060 it should be a frigate rush to try and maximize how many we can have (even if the paint's still wet) by Karachi.

A frigate rush and the merchant to CVE refits. I'd also like to get a factory of Wingmans because of the horrendous attrition we are suffering in the air. If that means cutting back on SADN or on prep for Q3 Fusion Phase 6 that might be the price we have to pay.

Edit:
So is NOD gonna have some in fighting as we push NOD warlords out of there territory and into a other NOD warlord territory?

NOD already has some infighting between the Caravanserai vs the 10 Rings and Mehretu. Plus if Stahl's section of the update is anything to go by, there is no love lost between him and Giddyboy. Plus China is from what I understand still mostly a reenactment of the warring states period.
 
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Yeah the cost is definitely off-putting and makes it hard to prioritize, but given our constant need to spam more power I think we do need to seriously consider at least some investment (one or two dice?) in the hopes of getting a better cost:power ratio out of future dice.
Hey, I'm going to be pushing Bergen once we clear Reykjavik Phase 4 from the docket. That just may take 1-2 more turns.

Im not sure about carrier conversion- doing so would take dice we need to push other projects through (including rolling out shipyards faster). Unless it is made a free action that does not need even 1 dice to activate
I think this just falls under "wartime suboptimality" situation. We need the actual carriers, in some form, somehow.

edit- more so since you still need hulls to escort the carriers and for patrol groups, would rather just push out escort carrier and frigate shipyards
If frigates finish a lot faster than light carriers (I want to stop calling the 50000-ton carriers we got "escort carriers" when they're quite different and have much larger wings than the 30000-ton carriers originally envisioned...)

Anyway, if frigates finish a lot faster than light carriers, then for the next 1-4 years, if we're building both kinds of yards, we're gonna have a lot of "new car smell" frigates with no new carriers to escort... yet. Which is the precise window of opportunity when we want those conversion carriers plugging the gap.

Dumbass idea. But what if we look at it in reverse?

Rather than building Karachi to supply the tibetan blue zone. What if we supply Karachi from the blue zone?
I'm pretty sure the problem then becomes that we can't support a big enough army out of the Xinjiang-Tibetan Blue Zone (BZ-18) to push south through mountains, desert, and desertmountains into OTL Pakistan, reliably push aside the forces of the Indian Nod warlord plus al-Isfahani, and secure the territory we need.

And even if we could, we'd want GDI carrier naval aviation active in the Indian Ocean to run interference by disrupting those particular warlords' power from the sea so they couldn't do as much inland against our advance.

Depending on how much fortification we put down in the first burst, and how self-sufficient we can make it/tie it to the Himalayas the better right? Long term we'd still want to roll out the navy and everything else. But short term we burst in, make it as self sufficient as possible, try to make a start on those rails to the himalayas. And for anything else burst out a phase of shuttles to keep them supplied in the short term until we've got destroyers/carriers on the way out.
Well, we're already gonna do three phases of rail expansions and a shuttle phase or two wouldn't be hard to fit in at some point this year or in 2061Q1, so I don't see why not... But I don't think it lines up with military realities to try to do Karachi entirely from the landward side when much of the point is to create and clear a port and its access both from land and sea.

So is NOD gonna have some in fighting as we push NOD warlords out of there territory and into a other NOD warlord territory?
Probably not so much. There are cases where those warlords already hated each other (e.g. the Caravansarai's current leader, who has a grudge against Mehretu for blowing up his grandson), but most of the major warlords seem to have no trouble agreeing that the real threat is GDI. Plus, many of the big warlords are in "pocketed" Yellow Zone areas on different continents and can't really get at each other.

What's more likely to happen is that any warlord that loses much territory either just declines in importance and becomes a second-rate warlord, or that they lose credibility and followers and cease to be able to command loyalty, at which point local Nod forces just dissolve into a spray of separate relatively minor warlords, the kind who just do their thing but don't individually have the budget to pay for cyborgs and xenotech air superiority fighters and giant-ass Redeemer mega-mecha.

NOD already has some infighting between the Caravanserai vs the 10 Rings and Mehretu. Plus if Stahl's section of the update is anything to go by, there is no love lost between him and Giddyboy.
Yeah, but in none of those cases are we likely to see one warlord pushed into the territory of one of the others.
 
Probably not so much. There are cases where those warlords already hated each other (e.g. the Caravansarai's current leader, who has a grudge against Mehretu for blowing up his grandson), but most of the major warlords seem to have no trouble agreeing that the real threat is GDI. Plus, many of the big warlords are in "pocketed" Yellow Zone areas on different continents and can't really get at each other.

What's more likely to happen is that any warlord that loses much territory either just declines in importance and becomes a second-rate warlord, or that they lose credibility and followers and cease to be able to command loyalty, at which point local Nod forces just dissolve into a spray of separate relatively minor warlords, the kind who just do their thing but don't individually have the budget to pay for cyborgs and xenotech air superiority fighters and giant-ass Redeemer mega-mecha.

Yeah, but in none of those cases are we likely to see one warlord pushed into the territory of one of the others.

On the larger scale, this is true.

On the smaller scale, if one commander loses her territory to the advancing Red Zone but maintains most of her armed forces, she may not listen when the neighboring commander tells her that the price for settling in his territory is vassalage. She may decide to adjust the chain of command so that she maintains her independence and power.

One of the duties of a major warlord is to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen. To distribute territory in a way that satisfies most of their subordinates, and to remind the dissatisfied that they have a great big stick that they will use on anyone who doesn't like their decisions.

If we eliminate a major warlord under circumstances that don't leave a clear successor, their branch of Nod could easily fall into civil war.
 
I feel like we're seeing this now with Gideon losing power in North America.
Not necessarily. Gideon's territory has been cut into pieces, and one of the most likely outcomes is that second and third-tier warlords in some of the pieces simply stop acknowledging his authority, while Gideon himself is too busy getting pounded on by GDI to really contest that by even fighting a civil war.

[Of course, this is assuming that Gideon can't escape and re-establish himself in a new territorial base to prolong the conflict, in which case he probably won't lose the backing of his followers and won't have to fight a civil war anyway]

Remember, Nod's North American territories were only vaguely continguous before Steel Vanguard. Because they run in a big stripe from the Gulf Coast of the former United States, up along roughly the line of the Mississippi, clear up through Canada (passing through VERY deep Yellow/Red zone around the western tip of Lake Superior). Then up into a big blob of northern Canada, heavily interrupted by Red Zone incursions in the Canadian prairie regions that probably cut a lot of the existing transport corridors Nod was relying on. Then back down south along the Rockies, running down the mountain range lengthwise.

It's just a massively unwieldy region to control, even if you can fly/tunnel (but not drive/locomotive) your way across the Red Zone safely, which you kind of can't because of ion storms.

And this is made so much worse by the part where we've just cut that big unwieldy several thousand kilometer ribbon of territory into three pieces by pushing the Green Zone boundary all the way up to the Red Zones around Chicago and the Great Salt Lake.

If Gideon loses his ability to coordinate warlords across those big stripes of territory (which is frankly an impressive achievement on his part!)... Well, there's no real civil war, there's just a general 'fuck off and fall apart' dynamic. Especially with GDI negotiating surrenders these days.

On the larger scale, this is true.

On the smaller scale, if one commander loses her territory to the advancing Red Zone but maintains most of her armed forces, she may not listen when the neighboring commander tells her that the price for settling in his territory is vassalage. She may decide to adjust the chain of command so that she maintains her independence and power.

One of the duties of a major warlord is to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen. To distribute territory in a way that satisfies most of their subordinates, and to remind the dissatisfied that they have a great big stick that they will use on anyone who doesn't like their decisions.

If we eliminate a major warlord under circumstances that don't leave a clear successor, their branch of Nod could easily fall into civil war.
Perhaps. On the other hand, there are complications.

First, Nod is aware that Kane is on some level watching, and is unlikely to actively want this kind of internecine warfare. Note that the only current major Nod-on-Nod conflicts we've been aware of in the past several years were (1) rebellions against Krukov's authority, and (2) the Caravansarai-Mehretu conflict. The former is a clear example of something analogous to the state retaining central authority, and the latter is a confllict Mehretu personally started for reasons unlikely to recur elsewhere. Only the latter fits the bill of "Nod civil war," and quite frankly I suspect there isn't and hasn't been much "Nod civil war" in this past decade. Not compared to previous interwar periods when more of the Earth's surface was habitable and when Kane was not so obviously still active and aware of world affairs. This time, pressure to resolve disputes short of war is stronger, especially since GDI is watching, has just proven its nearly unprecedented ability to strike first, and will obviously take advantage of any civil wars that materialize.

Second, any major retreats by Nod are likely to be into the territory of an existing major warlord. By your own argument, major warlords are the ones with "big sticks." The warlords (major or minor) falling back into that warlord's territory will NOT have big sticks; their sticks will tend to be broken by GDI. That is to say, even if they have the loyalty of their troops, that loyalty will be strained by defeat, and the troops' equipment will be cut off from its support base and access to uncontested tiberium mining grounds.

Third, I'm pretty sure your model here is how nomadic peoples behave, where when a big new rough tough Tribe A comes in and displaces Tribe B, Tribe B tends to try to resettle into the lands of Tribe C, which results in a B-C war that may in turn result in Tribe C being displaced into the lands of Tribe D, repeating the process. The big difference is that in this dynamic, it's 'every tribe for itself." Even given that Nod is ideologically willing to fight internal conflicts, there IS some concept of a "greater good of Nod," and the warlords are presumably able to negotiate and under some pressure to do so.

...

One might analogize to the difference between the classical and medieval Mediterranean.

In classical times, conflict between states was extremely brutal, diplomacy was rudimentary, and wars were often fought to the knife because once one side started winning it had no real incentive to stop until forced to stop, or until it had successfully pillaged the losers of everything they had and sold the survivors into slavery.

In medieval times, the Mediterranean basin was dominated by a few conflicting world religions, and conflicts between the religions could be brutal, but within each religious grouping's sway, there were some enforced norms that were usually in play.

For instance, Christians were not, on the whole, supposed to sell other Christians into slavery, for instance. And if you won a battle against rival Christians but did really brutal things to their women and children, or utterly ravaged their lands and left them with nothing, you could get in a lot of trouble with the Pope. Because religious authorities in Western Europe remained personally neutral in most Christian-Christian disputes and would tend to excommunicate anyone who acted like a complete ogre. Conflict continued to occur among Western Catholic Christians, but was kept within certain boundaries, and was usually resolved well short of the total annihilation of the losing side.

Now, these same Roman Catholics could be horrifyingly brutal to heretics or 'infidels' who did not accept the legitimacy and supremacy of the Roman Catholic cultural framework, and they certainly fought each other quite vigorously at times... but there was at least a norm of conflict resolution short of total war to the knife, and within which framework vassalage and subordination were accepted means of resolving such issues.

So we may see internal Nod conflicts as we put Nod under military pressure... or we may see these disputes being resolved with limited or no wars.

And yes, I just compared Kane to a medieval pope. No offense is intended to any Catholics in the audience, but the social role is similar, what with how he spends most of his time more or less peaced out in Italy and occasionally pops in to excommunicate a disloyal warlord or call for a crusade.
___________________________

*(including the second and third-tier warlords subordinate to a given major warlord)
 
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I think the other thing we need to keep in mind is that warlords are not going to be entirely ignorant of the strategic picture. They can see the trend of GDI recovering faster than NOD in many ways, GDI getting increasing access to the stars NOD can't heavily contest, GDI starting to manipulate the properties of all Tiberium on Earth, etc.

All the warlords are probably egotistical enough to believe they're the best candidate (barring Reynaldo) to be Regent and deliver NOD from GDI, but anyone who's placing their personal ambitions ahead of NOD's is probably exactly what Kane is watching out for after dealing with Marcion's bullshit.
 
[ ] Escort Carrier Shipyards
As GDI has a vast need for escort carriers, there are two tracks. First is simply building a number of supporting elements to build carriers between supporting the battleships. Second is building a number of dedicated shipyards for their production. While both will require substantial infrastructural investments, the former is substantially cheaper than the latter
-[ ] Battleship Yards (Progress 0/120: 20 resources per die) (-3 Energy, -1 Capital Goods)
-[ ] New York (Progress 0/240: 20 resources per die) (-5 Energy, -2 Capital Goods)
-[ ] Dublin (Progress 0/240: 20 resources per die) (-5 Energy, -2 Capital Goods)
-[ ] Nagoya (Progress 0/240: 20 resources per die) (-5 Energy, -2 Capital Goods)

[ ] Merchantman Carrier Conversions
With the Merchantman conversions, switching a substantial number of ships to carry Hammerheads and Orcas instead of cargo, it is a both politically and practically problematic approach. While certainly theoretically possible, and something that GDI has the design specifications to do. It will be a stop gap measure.
-[ ] Low Commitments (Complete all Escort Carrier Shipyards by end of Q4 2063) (Progress 0/200: 20 resources per die) (-15 PS)
-[ ] High Commitments (Complete all Escort Carrier Shipyards by end of Plan) (Progress 0/200: 20 resources per die) (-10 PS)


Bit of a spoiler for the next turn.
 
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