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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Phrux said:
So why are we not going all-in on the underground mines? That seems like both free money and something that should be investigated. Also, the anti-stealth, particularly because they have new anti-stealth airplanes.
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Ithillid said:
[ ] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 2)
With the concept proven, vein mines are a fairly expensive, but functional way of attacking underground Tiberium, and providing for a long term abatement strategy, while also not stressing military deployments. While they do have their problems, these are of limited import compared to their advantages.
(Progress 5/195: 20 resources per die) (Additional Income Trickle [20-30]) (+1 Yellow Zone Abatement) (-1 Capital Goods)
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They take Cap good. We currently have narrative hints saying we need more. The GM themself has hinted that our cap goods are a weak point that NOD wants to hit. We have several project, a lot of which are military, that also need cap goods.
 
bigking321 said:
Depending on how bad the bio-monsters end up being, rail gun ammo types and the flamethrower stuff might be really useful.
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Railgun Munitions are on the list of second-tier projects, but they're behind Wingman Drones, Botes, and a few other things like the projects Advanced Lasers will open up.
Inferno gel is a third-tier project in terms of importance, because it just is not likely to be that effective. (in my opinion)
 
I don't know, it's probably a lot faster and cheaper to get some high temperature flamethrowers out in the field then plasma and laser guns. Those are probably a more solid long term option, but if we need something now, we know how to use napalm.
 
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It depends on the war.

If our biggest problem is monsters everywhere beyond what we ever imagined, that has a different response than stealth stuff everywhere. And so on.
 
Nottheunmaker said:
I don't know, it's probably a lot faster and cheaper to get some high temperature flamethrowers out in the field then plasma and laser guns. Those are probably more a more solid long term option, but if we need something now, we know how to use napalm.
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I don't think we're likely to use flamethrowers much, since they're a somewhat signature NOD weapon, and we already have heavy weapons that can kill the Gana pretty easily. (T-5 man-portable rockets.)
If the Gana prove to be a significant threat such that our infantry need help, the best projects are likely Zone Armor or the GD-3 upgrade.
 
Phrux said:
So why are we not going all-in on the underground mines? That seems like both free money and something that should be investigated.
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Because:

1) We had cheap, low Logistics-cost glacier mining options at the beginning of the Plan thanks to our completion of the Medina refinery complex. Glacier mining is very much competitive with vein mining in terms of dice rolled and Resources invested, and if you have enough ZOCOM reserve capacity to cover the mines you can expand it fast. So we did.

2) Vein Mines cost Capital Goods. Quite a bit of them if you want large-scale vein mining.

3) Until now, we didn't have a significant Capital Goods surplus, because longstanding projects such as the war factory refits we've been putting off since mid-2058 have been eating those Capital Goods up as fast as we could produce them.

Expect to see more vein mining in this Plan and the next Plan.

Also, the anti-stealth, particularly because they have new anti-stealth airplanes.
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The anti-stealth is likely to see development and rollout. We've already recently finished one rollout of anti-stealth tech (the Long Range Sensor Systems) project. The stealth disruptor and ECCM projects are definitely on everyone's checklist, but the military has some urgent needs that we need to address at the same time, plus we have prior Plan commitments to do a bunch of very specific military projects. So rollout of other systems, even highly desirable ones, gets delayed. There is always, ALWAYS far more to do in the Military category than we could conceivably do in any reasonable amount of time; we are always having to prioritize.

Lightwhispers said:
Railgun Munitions are on the list of second-tier projects, but they're behind Wingman Drones, Botes, and a few other things like the projects Advanced Lasers will open up.
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I personally think we should consider railgun munitions to be on par with at least some of the advanced laser options (say, laser rifles for infantry).

Among the reasons:

-Railgun munitions enhance firepower without requiring STUs; advanced lasers may or may not do so depending on how things play out.

-Railgun munitions are ammo which can and probably will be designed to be compatible with existing railguns. This means we don't need to redesign entire combat platforms to accommodate them, whereas advanced lasers will necessitate extensive redesign and refits on many platforms. For instance, redesigning an Apollo fighter with a laser cannon instead of an autocannon, without sticking the laser in an external gun pod that slows down the plane significantly, is going to be a bigger deal than reloading a Predator's ammo rack to include some antipersonnel flechette rounds.

Lightwhispers said:
I don't think we're likely to use flamethrowers much, since they're a somewhat signature NOD weapon, and we already have heavy weapons that can kill the Gana pretty easily. (T-5 man-portable rockets.)
If the Gana prove to be a significant threat such that our infantry need help, the best projects are likely Zone Armor or the GD-3 upgrade.
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We've been repeatedly told that the GD-3 program won't have much impact on the infantry's anti-biomonster effectiveness, or such is my impression, but we've also been told the opposite. I don't even know anymore.
 
GD3 may or may not enhance our standard infantry ability to fight Gana. However we know the surefire way to fight the Gana and unequivocally win is Zone troopers.
 
The most recent version of the Wolverine seems like an effective anti-Gana weapons platform, considering it uses rapid-fire Zone Trooper railguns. Plus, it was the first Talons rollout we completed. However, it would make sense that it hasn't been deployed, considering how small the Talons are in comparison to the main ground forces.
 
I'm fairly sure our railguns were mentioned as having limited effectiveness on various targets, including gana I believe, because they just punched through and made a small hole which left things functional till we managed to hit something vital.

Hence railgun munitions which could make different ammo types for different targets.
 
Calvin said:
The most recent version of the Wolverine seems like an effective anti-Gana weapons platform, considering it uses rapid-fire Zone Trooper railguns. Plus, it was the first Talons rollout we completed. However, it would make sense that it hasn't been deployed, considering how small the Talons are in comparison to the main ground forces.
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I think Ground Forces is reluctant to bring back mechs in a frontline combat role on a large scale again unless they bring something really new to the table. For all the usual reasons- high target profile, high maintenance, et cetera.

The Juggernaut's a legacy platform at this point and isn't normally a frontline platform, so these issues are less relevant. Given that they're walking 203mm artillery platforms, Juggernauts are gonna spend most of their time close to the battalion/regimental level repair infrastructure, and if the enemy is getting direct fire shots at them at viable combat ranges something has gone wrong.

But for something with a role as relatively mundane as "light support armor for countering heavy combatants below the level of a main battle tank," like the Wolverine?

Ground Forces would flinch at the idea, I bet.

...

Even so... yeah, it actually wouldn't surprise me if there were at least proposals to bring back the Ground Force Wolverine.

@Ithillid , care to comment?

bigking321 said:
I'm fairly sure our railguns were mentioned as having limited effectiveness on various targets, including gana I believe, because they just punched through and made a small hole which left things functional till we managed to hit something vital.

Hence railgun munitions which could make different ammo types for different targets.
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Given that the biomonsters are supposed to be in large part still made out of meat, that they're really big, and that hydrostatic shock is A Thing, I figure that there has to be at least some effect...

But I take your meaning.

On the other hand, that's what rapid fire railguns are for; they put enough individual rounds downrange with good enough penetration characteristics that you're bound to hit something vital with a sustained burst.
 
To be fair, I'm not sure if Zone Troopers' effectiveness against Gana is due to their armaments or the armour itself, but the railgun is, at least in the game itself, primarily an anti-vehicle weapon. I don't think there's any information on the effectiveness of railguns against Afancs.
 
You're not wrong.

With that said... the division between anti-vehicle and anti-infantry weapons isn't quite as artificially huge in this version of the setting as it is in the actual real-time strategy games; individual infantrymen cannot survive repeated shots from the main gun of a tank.
 
Lightwhispers said:
I don't think we're likely to use flamethrowers much, since they're a somewhat signature NOD weapon, and we already have heavy weapons that can kill the Gana pretty easily. (T-5 man-portable rockets.)
If the Gana prove to be a significant threat such that our infantry need help, the best projects are likely Zone Armor or the GD-3 upgrade.
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Your missing my point. I would argee, Zone Armor would be better. I already said I think energy weapons would be more effective, and they'll definitely be more versatile and powerful. Slap lasers and plasma on Zone Armor for 1-800-Call-Me levels of abomination destroying fun.

But all that's going to be expensive. Maybe not super expensive, but expensive. And potentially time consuming. If we need something now, the build up costs could be massive pain, and we still might only get it later. I believe Inferno Gel can get made quickly and put into the field quickly, and we know organic material isn't happy to be bathed in fire. It not the perfect solution, but it fits 'good enough' better then infantry scale DEWs we're never made before.

My own conjecture mind, I'll be happy to be proved wrong and have a development/deployment something like a Plasma Caster to burn through the horrors. That'd be even faster.
 
Nottheunmaker said:
My own conjecture mind, I'll be happy to be proved wrong and have a development/deployment something like a Plasma Caster to burn through the horrors. That'd be even faster.
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The Talons believe their mechs (the Havoc and Mastodon specifically) can support conventional infantry against Gana, and the latter might have plasma cannons. We should definitely develop it this turn.
 
Given that the Mastodon is supposed to be at the low end of superheavy breakthrough armor, something built to at least the same general scale of the Mammoth tank if not larger as I understand it...

I don't think it's the right choice unless we start running into more Godzilla-esque biomonsters.

With the current biomonster threat, if the laser crocodiles or whatever want to stay at long range and trade slams with our troops it's not a problem; they're effectively just being a more exotic form of enemy light armored vehicle at that point.

The unique problem presented by Nod biomonsters is when they try to close, or are delivered into our rear areas by subterranean vehicles or some such. At which point the challenge is getting enough heavy weapons fire on target fast enough to put the things down before they can get in among our troops, who can only harm them with heavy weapons that are mostly impractical to use in close quarters.

For that, we need a light, mobile class of armored vehicle. Something that's probably not got as much raw firepower as a tank (an actual tank gun is overkill against biomonsters unless they're really big). Something that can get into position fast, can reposition or adapt to a crisis fast, and that has enough firepower to take down something that is itself probably not as well protected as a tank.

The Wolverine and Havoc are both well adapted to that role. The Mastodon, as I understand it, is not.

...

Now, if we start seeing giant cyborg kaiju, the threat parameters change. Then we're effectively countering a new Nod class of superheavy, something more comparable to the Avatar mech or the even larger and scarier Redeemer. Then we need very hard-hitting weaponry, tank-caliber or higher, and we're dealing with much larger individual enemy units that aren't going to be able to easily avoid detection or close with our forces (we hope).

That is the kind of thing you counter with your own superheavies.
 
Railgun Munitions, in all likelihood, is the path to making a genuinely effective anti-Gana railgun weapon. We have AP already, we just need to work out the best principles for integrating stuff like HE/incendiary,
 
Simon_Jester said:
The Wolverine and Havoc are both well adapted to that role. The Mastodon, as I understand it, is not.
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You raise a fair point. The Mastodon is comparable to the Mammoth MK II. Its apparent armament is "anti aircraft missile launchers and rapid fire chin mounted artillery". It may not be directly useful against Gana. I still think it has merit as a siege/support unit for Karachi, and deploying it is a plan goal.
 
I'm going to be for the Mastodon, yes. It's a plan goal and it's part of why the Steel Talons are at low confidence. Plus I love me a big stompy robot, and we don't know what's gated behind it either.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm for the Mastodon, I just don't think it's a very good solution to our biomonster problems specifically unless we start seeing kaiju-sized biomonsters.
 
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