Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

HousePet · Jul 7, 2022

Ithillid said:
Second is a shift in how things are planned.

[ ] Long Term Systematic Planning Organization (New)
While GDI has operated for the last decade on an emergency wartime basis, systematically organizing around a longer term planning basis is likely to save significant resources in the long run, as dedicated teams working on projects long term are noticeably more efficient, and are typically putting less strain on the system than various attempts at shock effort.
(-2 Free Dice) (-20 Capital Goods) (Significantly reorganizes project management) (Increases Dice Capacity)

If you take it,

[ ] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 4)
With the initial production shock labored into existence, further development is predicated on massive investment and expansion of the project, laying massive production lines, and setting them in motion towards one of the largest projects ever envisioned by the Global Defense Initiative.
(Progress 143/1200: 20 resources per die) (+32 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -8 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)
(Progress 0/2400: 20 resources per die) (+64 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -16 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)

would become something like

[ ] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 4)
With the initial production shock labored into existence, further development is predicated on massive investment and expansion of the project, laying massive production lines, and setting them in motion towards one of the largest projects ever envisioned by the Global Defense Initiative.
(Progress 143/1200) (+32 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -8 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)
(Progress 0/2400) (+64 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -16 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)
-[ ] Assign one die: -15R/turn until completion. (13 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (43 turns expected until phase 5 completion)
-[ ] Assign two dice: -30R/turn until completion. (6 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (22 turns expected until phase 5 completion)
-[ ] Assign three dice: -45R/turn until completion. (4 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (13 turns expected until phase 5 completion)
-[ ] Assign four dice: -60R/turn until completion. (3 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (11 turns expected until phase 5 completion)

Free dice would be still able to be moved around at will, and it would not affect every project, just the big long ones. Now, there are a lot of details to this shift that I am still working out, but I do want to get some feedback and input from the thread over this, because it is a big huge change.

Okay, I've had some time to think it over.
What is bothering me about this is that it boils down to throwing large amounts of dice at the project over multiple turns. We do that already. This just locks in our dice for a discount. Very inflexible.

Narratively, what we need is a oversight/steering committee as a temporary bureau to manage each big project we attempt. The purpose of this committee is to reduce the overhead, smooth out the construction timeline, and stop sudden spikes from disrupting the rest of the economy.
So what I propose is:
Some sort of initial Bureaucracy project that costs Capitol Goods to create an office/protocol for the bureau. Does not need to eat dice.
Then we can use one Bureaucracy, one Free, and one division die to activate this bureau upon a project. This locks those dice away until the project completes, or we push the 'abort' button.
While active, this bureau uses up one lot of the normal per die cost of the project to produce 100 progress points each turn. While also ensuring that this project will not in any way impact the wider economy (outside of things like a sudden shortfall on an indicator).
This also reduces the cost per die of investment in the project by 5 points. However, we now cannot spend more than 4 dice on the project per turn. (Which is the price for not having this disrupt things. No rushing it.)
So for the Nuuk example. By simply creating the temporary bureau, it will take 13 turns to complete phase 4, and cost a bit less than it normally would.
But if we assign an extra 4 dice per turn, at 15R per die, it will complete in 3 turns (rolls average), which is a bit slower than we would normally get for 5 dice invested per turn. But as far as R costs go, it comes in at 240R (3x (20 + 4x15)) instead of an expected 280R.
Nuuk 4 isn't quite big enough to show much difference. Will try for Boston 5.
15R per turn for the bureau. 40R for the 4 extra dice invested maximum. 340 mean progress per turn. Completes in 7.05 turns, so we'll just say 7... Total dice invested = 35, plus the Bureaucracy die. Would normal take about 31 dice. Total R spent = 385. Would normally cost 465R. Took 7 turns at minimum with the bureau oversight, but could have been rushed in 3 turns.

So we would be trading away the ability to rush the project, for cheaper and slower completion. But we can still divert a majority of the spending elsewhere, if needed.

Probably needs the numbers considered more, as the baseline feels off. But I like the concept of locking a Bureau die into the oversight of the project, rather than just locking in dice that we'd normally be using for the project.
As far as the 4 dice per turn cap goes. There could be a Bureaucracy project to increase that at the cost of Logistics.

Simon_Jester · Jul 7, 2022

If utilizing this function requires us to lock a Bureaucracy die along with the dice that are locked for the project itself, it dramatically increases the effective cost of the action. We use those dice.

I'm not seeing why your suggested modification makes more narrative sense than the original idea. It's considerably more complicated (in that it's more likely to confuse someone who's trying to draw up a plan for the first time), more expensive, and not obviously narratively better.

FaxModem1 · Jul 7, 2022

Dmol8 said:
I don't recognize this reference and I can't seem to find it online. Please elaborate.

The opening scene of the musical 1776 is John Adams finding out that the Continental Congress is wasting time debating matters over things such as Rhode Island's militia wearing uniforms or not instead of voting yes or no on independence.

View: https://youtu.be/BPq2E2nraCc

Unlike Kane, John Adams is considered more of a rude blowhard in the musical who everyone else wants to shut up.

sunrise · Jul 7, 2022

[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October
[x] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October with more Bogatyr and all dice activated

HousePet · Jul 7, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
If utilizing this function requires us to lock a Bureaucracy die along with the dice that are locked for the project itself, it dramatically increases the effective cost of the action. We use those dice.

I'm not seeing why your suggested modification makes more narrative sense than the original idea. It's considerably more complicated (in that it's more likely to confuse someone who's trying to draw up a plan for the first time), more expensive, and not obviously narratively better.

Yeah, the numbers were all out. I was trying to think it through on the bus, where I can't test out numbers.
But it was cheaper as far as resources goes. We can't just have it flat out cheaper on resources and dice. (Or can we? Hrm... Possibly not a good thing, as it would have to take much longer as a balance lever. )
It was just supposed to be similar to the proposal, but we'd be putting in a Bureaucracy effort to smooth over the process, as the intention is more of an administrative thing instead of applying more technical expertise (which is what we do when we just throw dice at a big project).
I'll think through it some more.

bigking321 · Jul 7, 2022

HousePet said:
We can't just have it flat out cheaper on resources and dice.

I think the entire point of the original idea WAS to make it cheaper on resources and dice. But at the cost of flexibility.

You get the mega project done faster with less resources but those 1-4 dice are GONE till it completes or we pay whatever penalty to switch the dice back to normal.

DinoHank · Jul 7, 2022

[X] Plan Roses Too
[X] Plan Steak and Tendrils

HousePet · Jul 7, 2022

bigking321 said:
I think the entire point of the original idea WAS to make it cheaper on resources and dice. But at the cost of flexibility.

The flexibility loss was a bit too great though. We either aimed high, and would be at risk of not being able to complete alternative projects that might come up. Or we aim too low, and the project drags on for far too long with no way to speed it up.
Some flexibility loss is certainly desirable though, since that is the whole point of it. Steady progress that doesn't disrupt things.

bigking321 · Jul 7, 2022

HousePet said:
The flexibility loss was a bit too great though. We either aimed high, and would be at risk of not being able to complete alternative projects that might come up. Or we aim too low, and the project drags on for far too long with no way to speed it up.

I don't see it that way at all. I think it's a great idea.

We could get mega projects done at 75% of the time and cost. That's a incredible deal. Mega projects usually have very significant payouts, capstones, and knock-on effects.

So the price of that great deal needs to be significant as well otherwise balance is completely wreaked. Losing the dice till completion meets that criteria and massively increases the value of free dice.

Say we do Reykjavik with four dice. Fantastic. We'll have it done in 3 turns and save on resources. Perfect for the beginning of a plan. We have zone armor factories to build so the sooner the better.

But now we only have 1 dice left in that category. Now we have to figure out what to put it on. Get some consumer goods? Start slow walking another big project? Put it on the shiny new thing? Is whatever it is a big enough deal to spend free dice on to rush it?

I really want to try this system out. We have a bunch of mega projects and cities just... sitting there and this is a big incentive to start knocking them out.

BOTcommander · Jul 7, 2022

[X] Plan Steak and Tendrils

MagnificentMind · Jul 7, 2022

[X] Plan Roses Too

Sa'kage · Jul 7, 2022

Hazard said:
A flawed way to see this.

We do not mine tiberium for our sake. It is not our money.

It is GDI's money. It is for GDI's sake we mine that tiberium.

We do not lose that money. Other components of GDI can make excellent use of that money.

What we do is ensure that we and they have more money next Plan to use for everything. And they desperately need it, given our population basically just grew by 20% or so.

As treasury, our job to the people and GDI, is to build their homes, ensure everyone has access to hospitals, make food that people can enjoy, make spaceships so humanity isn't stuck on a dying planet and ensure there is enough military hardware to protect everyone.

While doing this, is to some degree not playing good faith to GDI, we'd be doing the same if we didn't. We would cripple our ability to serve GDI citizen by the same margin due to not getting enough money.

The hospitals all the soldiers need, the bacon and cheese people crave, all of that would be delayed and might not even be done. This isn't a situation where the only amount of Goodwill is the money we give everyone.

Because, what is the alternative here.

A) We do vein mining instead, but that would very much be slow. It would undermine our ability to both fufill the plan goals, undermining the goodwill parliament and the people have in us to actually do their job.

In this, we would be breaking people's trust in us, their trust in GDI to actually provide for them.

B) In need to actual fund, we go ahead with red zone mining because what are the alternatives? At which point we will utterly break The military and people's faith in that Treasure isn't just some numbers go up, but an instrument that works to help and provide for the people.

We would be sending people to their death, because ZOCOM have told us they don't have enough people for this. We would directly send get people killed for our desire for more cash.

And yes, there is alwaya danger in doing this stuff, and that is part of being in the military, but that is different from us deliberately sending people into a situation where they are at an disadvantage.

You speak as if the only good will is what we provide in cash for other part of GDI, but by doing that we would be ruining the Good will, people have in the treasury to actually do it's job.

We are entering ever increasing demands for better lives from the populace, an need for military spending due to the aliens that almost killed humanity hanging over us, a desperate desire to get onto other planet so humanity won't die on an planet that's on verge of exploding.

Beside, we have not only meet the income goal, we've exceeded it. The absolute worst case scenario i can think of this, is that Parliament will add this to our income goal, or will tell us that 2 year into the plan they will take away like 70RP, in order to refund amongst other part.

What, i expect is that we might get told to not do this a habit or overdoing it.

Our job is the treasury, to build GDI's future. We can't do that if we don't have cash for it. The people will suffer as a result from what you are saying we should do. I think in terms of good will, that is the far worse option.

HousePet · Jul 7, 2022

bigking321 said:
I don't see it that way at all. I think it's a great idea.

We could get mega projects done at 75% of the time and cost. That's a incredible deal. Mega projects usually have very significant payouts, capstones, and knock-on effects.

So the price of that great deal needs to be significant as well otherwise balance is completely wreaked. Losing the dice till completion meets that criteria and massively increases the value of free dice.

Say we do Reykjavik with four dice. Fantastic. We'll have it done in 3 turns and save on resources. Perfect for the beginning of a plan. We have zone armor factories to build so the sooner the better.

But now we only have 1 dice left in that category. Now we have to figure out what to put it on. Get some consumer goods? Start slow walking another big project? Put it on the shiny new thing? Is whatever it is a big enough deal to spend free dice on to rush it?

I really want to try this system out. We have a bunch of mega projects and cities just... sitting there and this is a big incentive to start knocking them out.

I guess, but what about for actual big projects, cos Reykjavik isn't really a big project. We can do that one in 2 turns if we wanted to.
How do you feel about locking down 4 HI dice for 6 turns to get Boston 5?
We'd have to rely on Free dice for all power plants needed in that time. If something new comes up, Free dice again.
Alternatively, we lock down only half our HI dice for 3 years to get Boston 5.
But we can complete Boston 5 in 3 turns if we use our Free dice.
The proposal given uses our dice more efficiently, but it doesn't complete projects quicker at all.

bigking321 · Jul 7, 2022

HousePet said:
I guess, but what about for actual big projects, cos Reykjavik isn't really a big project. We can do that one in 2 turns if we wanted to.
How do you feel about locking down 4 HI dice for 6 turns to get Boston 5?
We'd have to rely on Free dice for all power plants needed in that time. If something new comes up, Free dice again.
Alternatively, we lock down only half our HI dice for 3 years to get Boston 5.
But we can complete Boston 5 in 3 turns if we use our Free dice.
The proposal given uses our dice more efficiently, but it doesn't complete projects quicker at all.

I think you are severely misunderstanding what would happen with this new system.

It effectively turns any dice assigned to it into a result of 100. So minus the 29 point bonus it basically turns those 4 dice into rolls of 71 every time that are cheaper than normal dice. Thats fantastic.

And yes it would take 6 turns with just those dice. Which is great for a 2400 point project.

But you're missing something very important.

Ithillid said:
Basically, this is entirely for the projects that are above the 600-800 point range. Beyond that, you do have significant ability to press the "Get done now" button even with the modification, because free dice don't lock. So if you want to get a project done quickly, you put big numbers of dice into it, and then on top of that pile on 5 free dice, and Erewhon.

So... what's the downside? Besides losing flexibility for several turns.

Bharatavarsha · Jul 7, 2022

[X] Plan Roses Too
[X] Plan Steak and Tendrils

Question. Is gdi capable of making lab cultured meat as an alternative to the ranching domes.

Hazard · Jul 7, 2022

Sa'kage said:
As treasury, our job to the people and GDI, is to build their homes, ensure everyone has access to hospitals, make food that people can enjoy, make spaceships so humanity isn't stuck on a dying planet and ensure there is enough military hardware to protect everyone.

Actually it isn't.

Our job, as Treasury, is to ensure GDI is collecting the taxes and paying the bills.

Homes, medical access, food supplies, space operations, military equipment? Those are all things the Treasury ended up in charge of during a time of extreme crisis to ensure a most optimal distribution of resources and to permit an effective answer to GDI's then deathspiraling economy.

We have remained in charge of expanding such things as a result of the conceit of the game, but without that, by now we'd have shifted enough resources and capabilities to the other sections of GDI to ensure they can fulfill their duties and expand their own capabilities as needed, with potentially occasional extra infusions of money for particularly large projects, or to provide oversight. Quite possibly the only exception could be the tiberium department, on account of tiberium being GDI's biggest money maker.

Oshha · Jul 7, 2022

[X] Plan Roses Too
[X] Plan Steak and Tendrils

Dmol8 · Jul 7, 2022

Alright here is my plan:

Resources:‌ ‌1130 + 0 in‌ ‌reserve‌ ‌(-15‌ ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌the‌ ‌Forgotten)‌ ‌(-35 ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌grants)‌(+25 from Taxes) (-5 from Resettlement) (-30 from Reconstruction commissions)

Political‌ ‌Support:‌ 64
SCIENCE Meter: 4/4
Free‌ ‌Dice:‌ ‌7 ‌
Erewhon Dice: 1
Dice Capacity 57/60

Tiberium Spread
22.22 Blue Zone
0.01 Cyan Zone
1.69 Green Zone
22.46 Yellow Zone (98 points of mitigation)
53.62 Red Zone (70 points of mitigation)

Current Economic Issues:
Housing: +44 (23 population in low quality housing) (-10 per turn from refugees)
Energy: +5 (+4 in reserve)
Logistics: +24 (-6 from raiding) (-5 from military activity)
Food: +26 (+12 in reserve)
Health: +10 (-7 from Wartime Demand) (-10 from Refugees)
Capital Goods: +12 (+114 in reserve)
STUs: +11
Consumer Goods: +40 (-18 from demand spike) (+3 from Private Industry) (-4 from increased population)
Labor: +46 (+4 per turn from medical care) (+2 per turn from Immigrant qualifications) (-1 per turn from private industry) (-1 per turn from other government) (Net +4)
Tiberium‌ ‌Processing‌ ‌Capacity‌ ‌(2015/2470)‌ ‌
Taxation Per Turn: +30
Space Mining Per Turn: +95
Green Zone Water: +6

[X] Plan Running on Glass v2.3:
-[X] Infrastructure 6/6 95 Resources:
--[X] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 6) 220/300 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
--[X] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 6) (Updated) 0/160? 10 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 30 Resources
--[X] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 1) 156/200 30 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 30 Resources
--[X] Bureau of Arcologies (Updated) -1 Infrastructure Die, -2 to Infrastructure Dice, -15 RpT
-[X] Heavy Industry 5/5 Dice + 3 Free Die + 1 Administrative Die 210 Resources:
--[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) (Updated) 243/300 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die + 1 Administrative Die = 40 Resources
--[X] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Deployment (New?) 92/600 20 Resources per Die, 6 Dice = 120 Resources
--[X] Isolinear Chip Foundry Anadyr 258/320 50 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 50 Resources
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry 5/5 70 Resources:
--[X] Chemical Fertilizer Plants (Phase 2) 276/300 15 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 15 Resources
--[X] Civilian Drone Factories 104/380 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
--[X] Artificial Wood Development (Tech) 0/60 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
--[X] Department of Consumer Industrial Development (New) -1 Light and Chemical Die, -15 RpT
--[X] Department of Distributed Manufactures (New) -1 Light and Chemical Die, -20 RpT
-[X] Agriculture 4/4 Dice + 2 Free Dice 80 Resources:
--[X] Blue Zone Aquaponics Bays (Phase 4) 75/140 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
--[X] Ranching Domes 0/250 20 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 60 Resources
--[X] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 3) 85/175 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
--[X] Freeze Dried Food Plants 181/200 Autocompletes
--[X] Extra Large Food Stockpiles 1 Die
-[X] Tiberium 7/7 Dice 210 Resources:
--[X] Harvesting Tendril Deployment (Phase 2) 74/750 30 Resources per Die, 7 Dice = 210 Resources
-[X] Orbital Industry 6/6 Dice + Erewhon Die 140 Resources:
--[X] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 5) 348/1535 20 Resources per Die, 5 Dice + Erewhon Die = 120 Resources
--[X] Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting (Phase 2) 11/125? 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
-[X] Services 5/5 Dice 125 Resources:
--[X] Regional Hospital Expansions (Phase 1) (New) 0/300 25 Resources per Die, 5 Dice = 125 Resources
-[X] Military 8/8 Dice 150 Resources:
--[X] Escort Carrier Shipyards (High Priority) Newark 0/240 20 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 60 Resources
--[X] Shark Class Frigate Shipyards Seattle (High Priority) 0/300 20 Resources per Die, 4 Dice = 80 Resources
--[X] Mastodon Heavy Assault Walker Deployment (High Priority) 113/225 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Bureaucracy 4/4 Dice:
--[X] Administrative Assistance Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) 2 Die
--[X] Interdepartmental Favors 1 Die
--[X] Long Term Systematic Planning Organization (New) 1 Die -2 Free Die

95+210+70+80+210+140+125+150 = 1080/1130

My plan still doesn't do the Improved Hewlett Gardener Process Development because we haven't done the NOD Gacha yet which might get us some sort of better Tiberium Processing and also I'm aiming for all Plan Goals to be done in Heavy Industry now because I expect to do more Dice eating actions in Q3:

- 1 Die on Yellow Zone Fortress Towns for a 68% chance and a DC of 33 to complete Phase 6.
- 3 Dice on Blue Zone Apartment Complexes for a 99% chance and an Average DC of 15 to complete Phase 6 and 16% chance and an Average DC of 66 to complete Phase 7. Probably. We did just complete all the Phases whose progress we could see.
- 1 Die on Suborbital Shuttle Service for a 100% chance and a DC of 1 to complete Phase 1 and get the Himmalayan Blue Zone some logistical support.
- 1 Die on Bureau of Arcologies so we are always building at least a small amount of High Quality Housing so that we don't have to do Housing actions every turn and that -50 to Arcology action is a nice bonus

- 1 Die + 1 Administrative Die on Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants for a 99% chance and an Average DC of 7 to complete Phase 8 so we have enough Energy.
- 6 Dice on Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Deployment for a 41% chance and an Average DC of 56 to complete this plan goal.
- 1 Die on Anadyr for a 83% chance and a DC of 18 to complete this plan goal.

- 1 Die on Chemical Fertilizer Plants for a 100% chance and a DC of 1 to complete it and get the Food from it.
- 1 Die on Civilian Drone Factories to keep building that up.
- 1 Die on Artificial Wood for an 85% chance and a DC of 21.
- 1 Die on Department of Consumer Industrial Development for more Consumer Goods and better employment of people.
- 1 Die on Department of Distributed Manufactures so we start rebuilding our old-school Capital Goods manufacturing.

- 1 Die on Blue Zone Aquaponics Bays for a 75% chance and a DC of 26 to complete Phase 4.
- 3 Dice on Ranching Domes for a 42% chance and an Average DC of 55 to complete.
- 1 Die on Strategic Food Stockpile Construction for a 50% chance and an Average DC of 51 to complete Phase 3.
- Freeze Dried Food Plants are finally done.
- 1 Die on Extra Large Food Stockpiles to get that over with on time for Reallocation.

- 7 Dice on Harvesting Tendril Deployment Phase 2 for a 33% chance and an Average DC of 56 to complete. My argument remains the same: The more Tib income we build up before reallocation, the less we will have to catch up after it.

- 6 Dice, one of them Erewhon, on Enterprise to continue working towards that Plan Goal.
- 1 Die on Lunar Rare Metals Harvesting to slow roll that goal.

- 5 Dice on Regional Hospital Expansions for a 94% chance and an Average DC of 33 to complete. We need to get this done people because our new population needs their own hospitals with the way we are building up new towns.

- 3 Dice on Escort Carrier Shipyards Newark for a 54% chance and an Average DC of 49 to complete this plan goal.
- 4 Dice on Shark Class Frigate Shipyards Seattle for a 64% chance and an Average DC of 46 to complete the Shark Frigate Deployment
- 1 Die on Mastadon deployment for a 30% chance and a DC of 71 to get Steel Talons a new set of bases. I don't like having this low a chance for new Steel Talons bases.

- 2 Die on Administrative Assistance on Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants to get that up to 99% chance.
- 1 Die on Interdepartmental Favors because this is the time to strike according to multiple pages of discussion we've had before this turn.
- 1 Die on Long Term Systematic Planning Organization because we have almost reached our Dice capacity and because this is an option that will have narrative consequences as well so the sooner it is done the better.

Edit: Welp I guess I'm only voting for my plan today. Seriously what is up with the plans this turn?

Edit 2: Welp I guess I'm approval voting for [X] Plan Steak and Tendrils because it's the only plan that I can support. I hate it, but it is the least evil. If we get reports of refugees having to be airlifted/transported/travel to other cities for hospital visits in this turn's results I will say I told you so.

Simon_Jester · Jul 7, 2022

Hazard said:
Actually it isn't.

Our job, as Treasury, is to ensure GDI is collecting the taxes and paying the bills.

Homes, medical access, food supplies, space operations, military equipment? Those are all things the Treasury ended up in charge of during a time of extreme crisis to ensure a most optimal distribution of resources and to permit an effective answer to GDI's then deathspiraling economy.

We have remained in charge of expanding such things as a result of the conceit of the game, but without that, by now we'd have shifted enough resources and capabilities to the other sections of GDI to ensure they can fulfill their duties and expand their own capabilities as needed, with potentially occasional extra infusions of money for particularly large projects, or to provide oversight. Quite possibly the only exception could be the tiberium department, on account of tiberium being GDI's biggest money maker.

Yes, but two thirds of Parliament currently approves of Treasury's handling of things.

Which strongly suggests that despite a desire to somewhat decentralize the economy... They're not actually planning on having us truly dissolve the planned economy that makes Treasury responsible for so much.

Like, you can present "Treasury as the department that runs a planned economy" as some kind of aberration, but at this point it's been in place for ten years and the legislature shows every sign of intending that it run for another four more, even if they want to tweak the balance of who is responsible for what a bit. We've been explicitly told that the overall budget is back up to "almost pre-TWIII levels" based on the descriptions from the 2057Q4 reapportionment vote... and yet, there doesn't seem to be a groundswell of support for reducing Treasury all the way back to its pre-TWIII "just the tiberium mining" functionality.

I think you're taking a perspective on Treasury that is much too... self-abnegating. It's not in line with the actual role that the Four Year Plans are placing us in, because we can't step back that far and go "no, we are but humble ____s" without failing the ambitious targets Parliament tells us to fulfill.

We're being given goals that only a robust, functional, adequately funded organization can fulfill, and we need to be able to set aside funds to do this. Parliament has to know this, because they're the ones who keep setting the targets! They're the ones who would have been disappointed and angry if the military had buckled during Steel Vanguard, or if the ambitious goals for Capital and Consumer Goods weren't getting met, or if the housing crisis were spilling over and putting refugees under canvas.

Khop · Jul 7, 2022

[X] Plan Steak and Tendrils
This fits my desires well.

HousePet · Jul 7, 2022

bigking321 said:
But you're missing something very important.

I can confirm I did miss that bit. Thanks.

Hrm...
For the Boston 5 example, for a 6 turn completion it saves us 1 die each turn for 6 turns, and reduces the R cost from 450 to 240. Now that is pretty decent discount. Except that a cost discount for long projects isn't what I'm looking for. I want to get the project done quickly, without the downside from a surge effort.
If we pay the extra dice to get it done in 5 turns, which is two Free dice per turn, the cost becomes 280R.
Down to 4 turns, 3 Free dice extra per turn. 340R.
For 3 turn completion we'd need to spend 5 Free dice per turn on it. 345R. That seems fine, but I'm not sure we are preventing surge issues anymore, and the dice saving is now only 3 dice across the whole project. We can already do this project in 3 turns without this system.
(Most of this cost saving in this example is because Boston is only 15R per die. The cost saving is much reduced in higher per die cost projects.)

bigking321 said:
So... what's the downside? Besides losing flexibility for several turns.

We are paying 20 Capitol Goods and 2 Free Dice to unlock this system. I feel like it has insufficient whelm. Or rather, is underwhelming where I want it to deliver, but rather good in something I'm not super excited about.
It does more cost saving than speed, and it also makes things more complicated if we do want to hurry a big project along. And getting more resources to spend is something we can do relatively easy. Whereas, getting speed improvements is harder.
Paying Free dice for a system that is slow doesn't add up to me.

Sa'kage · Jul 7, 2022

Hazard said:
Actually it isn't.

Our job, as Treasury, is to ensure GDI is collecting the taxes and paying the bills.

Homes, medical access, food supplies, space operations, military equipment? Those are all things the Treasury ended up in charge of during a time of extreme crisis to ensure a most optimal distribution of resources and to permit an effective answer to GDI's then deathspiraling economy.

We have remained in charge of expanding such things as a result of the conceit of the game, but without that, by now we'd have shifted enough resources and capabilities to the other sections of GDI to ensure they can fulfill their duties and expand their own capabilities as needed, with potentially occasional extra infusions of money for particularly large projects, or to provide oversight. Quite possibly the only exception could be the tiberium department, on account of tiberium being GDI's biggest money maker.

blinks

Now, i may be horrible misunderstanding your argument here, but you are saying we shouldn't do this, because our job as Treasury is to just collect taxes.

You essentially believe that come may next plan, we give up all our dice's because building stuff isn't really suppose to be the treasury job.

Agricultural dice, because the department of Agricultural should build farms, not us. Service because deparment of service should decide what to do with it and so forth.

It's the idea that we should only have buracraric dice and maybe tiberium dice. Anything else should be everyone elses jobs.

Ignoring the fact that Treasury become so powerfull for a reason, and that people ate generally happy with how it is now. Looking aside from all that

From just pure gameplay perspective that is kinda just resigning this quest to more or less do nothing. The playerbase would basically be doing nothing, because in your view that is what the treasure is suppose to do.

Spend a dice on collecting taxes, maybe a dice on some more tiberium mining if the military happen to have used their dice for that.

And if that's what your goal is then, i can't really argue with that, but i feel like at that point you should be looking for a different quest because that isn't how this one is driven.

And if you mean, that this is just a result of the game, then we should be treating the treasury as what it currently is in the story. And keep the income so we can do what is currently our job.

Not as the, only does taxes and check ledger treasury you want.

I don't know, maybe i'm fundamental misunderstanding your argument here. But you seem to be arguing for the fact that we should treat the treasury, as an orginization with only burricratic dice. And well, for me that sounds like an utterly different quest at that point

Gnarker · Jul 7, 2022

Ithillid said:
Mostly capital goods. Not currently a whole ton of civilian recreational uses for a suit of what is essentially power armor minus the armor.

Someone remind me please, have we explored the health benefits of exoskeletons yet? Both as a replacement for wheelchairs, and to ensure that anyone hauling heavy stuff for a living doesn't throw out their back.

Simon_Jester said:
The Strait of Hormuz is two hundred meters deep at its deepest point. I would not be confident of a MARV's ability to cross the Strait unless someone figures out how to equip a MARV with water wings. Or unless we build a very seaworthy Hover MARV.

Or some seriously heavy-duty barges, possibly.

bigking321 said:
I think you are severely misunderstanding what would happen with this new system.

It effectively turns any dice assigned to it into a result of 100. So minus the 29 point bonus it basically turns those 4 dice into rolls of 71 every time that are cheaper than normal dice. Thats fantastic.

Seriously, where are people getting this from? I don't recall reading anything like this, and to me at least the implication is that if we commit dice, then those dice will still be rolled.
Or are you simply referring to the reduction in progress needed?

bigking321 · Jul 7, 2022

Gnarker said:
Seriously, where are people getting this from?

Hmm...

I think I found the problem.

I was looking at the examples and the 4 dice assigned completion in 3 turns part and I think I just did the math to see what that would require and arrived at 100 points of progress per die.

But on second look through I think that might be a estimated time of completion rather than a set time of completion like I was assuming.

If so that implies dice rolling remains in effect and, while still good, that's not nearly as good as I was assuming.

Hazard · Jul 7, 2022

Sa'kage said:
I don't know, maybe i'm fundamental misunderstanding your argument here. But you seem to be arguing for the fact that we should treat the treasury, as an orginization with only burricratic dice. And well, for me that sounds like an utterly different quest at that point

I am saying that declaring that we are doing all the things and the rest of GDI is doing fuck all is wrong, that the rest of GDI absolutely also needs all the money we can give them, and that we should not be so desperate to hoard all the money we can get away with hoarding.

Yes, we do a ton of stuff on top of gathering the taxes and paying the bills, but if it weren't for the fact that we are playing a game, the Treasury would've been forced to shed most of its control on discretionary spending by 2058 because the emergency is over. However, at the same time, we are still responsible for ensuring the rest of GDI also has money to shove around, and I want us to have the biggest revenue stream we can get by end of Q4 2061, so that all the other components of GDI can do things as well, rather than being so constantly starved of funding they have to keep asking the Treasury for everything.

Hell, one of the key issues during the Regency War is that InOps has been effectively underfunded for the entire Plan because despite the Treasury losing something like 50% of its funding, some 300 RpT, GDI honestly needs shittons more money, and even shifting 500 RpT won't get even close to the amount of money GDI in general needs to do all the things that need doing. So I want to shift the largest quantity of money into the rest of GDI possible, and the easiest way to do that is by growing our income stream substantially prior to Reallocation.

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

To Live is to Suffer

The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web