It also struck me as unwise, in hindsight, to research a major plant upgrade for tiberium processing while building the plants if we want to avoid gratuitous extra refitting.

The same could be said for the current set of refits. Maybe moving that die and the GZ Intensification die to Vein Mining would be a good idea. It will give a significant chance of completing that phase (54%), and with (depending on if there is a deployment project or not) the Harvesting Claws we should get some significant bonuses to income there.
 
The Improved Hewlett Gardener Process Development?
It sounds like it will improve STU efficiency mostly, which isn't something we specifically need right now.
It even suggests that there will be a bigger revision later as well.
I'd defer it for now. It isn't some expensive project that we won't be able to do later.
Do it after we've done the early Plan big Tib mining rush.
 
The same could be said for the current set of refits...
Given how 'capstoning' tends to work in this quest, I have a worried suspicion that doing the next round of refits is gated behind refitting the plants to the "uses the Hewlett-Gardner process at all" standard. I think it's at least worth trying to finish that phase of the process.

Maybe moving that die and the GZ Intensification die to Vein Mining would be a good idea. It will give a significant chance of completing that phase (54%), and with (depending on if there is a deployment project or not) the Harvesting Claws we should get some significant bonuses to income there.
Problem one, our Capital Goods surplus is none too thick at the moment. +12 isn't bad, and we've got about +14 in extra projects coming down the road, but we've also got anywhere from -3 to -9 Capital Goods of other projects we're likely to want to finish before the end of the current Plan, let alone stuff we'll want to do in the next one which probably includes a big Zone Mining push. I'd rather not expend -1 Capital Goods on a project we won't get to keep the income from for very long. Not right now.

Problem two, I'm trying to avoid doing things with significant costs that are only or primarily about income increase right now, instead focusing on things that are less obviously profitable in RpT terms but still desirable. Vein mining is all about that RpT boost. Green Zone Intensification provides security benefits (even if it's no longer formally listed as "supports Steel Vanguard") alongside the small Resource trickle. If I were going to drop it, I'd probably want to drop it for another project that provides more ulterior benefit, such as the tiberium silos.

The Improved Hewlett Gardener Process Development?
It sounds like it will improve STU efficiency mostly, which isn't something we specifically need right now.
Yes, because we don't actually have any really challenging goals that are must-do at the moment. This is a good time to plan ahead and prioritize things that we'll need eventually and be glad we already have when that time comes.

Also, our STU costs are going to rise really fast if we start implementing things like the xenotech structural alloys and microfusion reactors on a larger scale. I'd rather get out in front of that issue.

It even suggests that there will be a bigger revision later as well.
That's not how research in this game works. If you don't pursue Level 2 of something, Level 3 rarely gets developed, unless you research some other tech that outflanks Level 2 entirely (the way laser developments outflanked our existing research into antimissile defense).

I'd defer it for now. It isn't some expensive project that we won't be able to do later.
Defer it in favor of what, exactly? Nothing else on our agenda is particularly urgent. This is the perfect time, when we have spare Tiberium dice and nothing pressing that needs doing except a single 200-point project to build more processing plants.

Besides which, we'll just need to refit those processing plants if we build them now before researching the better technique anyway.

There's almost no benefit to be had from deferring the research. What else would you have me do?
 
That's not how research in this game works. If you don't pursue Level 2 of something, Level 3 rarely gets developed, unless you research some other tech that outflanks Level 2 entirely (the way laser developments outflanked our existing research into antimissile defense).
Would have been more convincing without the obvious counter-example in the second sentence. XD

Defer it in favor of what, exactly? Nothing else on our agenda is particularly urgent. This is the perfect time, when we have spare Tiberium dice and nothing pressing that needs doing except a single 200-point project to build more processing plants.
Which also makes this the perfect time for all the other projects we have put off.
We've got the Tendrils, which would be great to finish. The Harvesting Claws may need a deployment of some sort. Green Zone Intensification is available. A single die of refits to finish. Two Inhibitors available outside of Blue Zones. Building Tiberium Containment Facilities before we need them would be good.
All of those projects will take about 18 dice (Claws uncounted). So three quarters of projects there.
Nothing may be urgent, but delaying a Plan Goal for optimisation reasons this close to the end point is a pointless risk. Things could roll badly, or suddenly increase in Energy usage, or get bombed.
I'd prefer to finish off what we need with the current tech, before we speculate on the next tech. New tech rollouts are always more expensive than we expect.
 
I agree with Simon that finishing off the existing refits is something we should probably get out of the way now when we have the money and that we should develop the new refining method now-ish as well. I also think that STU reliant projects are likely going to start coming in in increasing numbers. As such we should get ahead of the curve here and have our improved refining technologies deployed ready for us to make use of.

After all, unless we suddenly learn the Visitors refining technologies or fully make use of Nods APK method we are still bound pretty tightly to just how many STUs we can produce. So even having a handful more available will let us budget them more effectively, especially as we may soon be presented with STU consuming projects to combat the Visitors out at Jupiter.

I am also game for grabbing Kane by the ankles and shaking him until the Tacitus and his unhodly STU stockpiles fall out.
 
Would have been more convincing without the obvious counter-example in the second sentence. XD
I'm trying to be truthful, not a persuasive liar. Technological progression in this game so far has always followed one of two paths:

1) Steady improvement on what has already been developed and implemented, or
2) A completely novel technology outflanking the process (1).

If we're going to rely on (1) to improve our refinery tech, we need to research the current version of the Hewlett-Gardner process.

If you think we should rely on (2) instead, then would you mind explaining to me why you think we have an 'outflanking' tech coming along soon?

Now, I'm going to artificially divide your next quote into a numbered list so that I can address it without quote spaghetti...

Which also makes this the perfect time for all the other projects we have put off.
1) We've got the Tendrils, which would be great to finish.
2) The Harvesting Claws may need a deployment of some sort.
3) Green Zone Intensification is available.
4) A single die of refits to finish.
5) Two Inhibitors available outside of Blue Zones.
6) Building Tiberium Containment Facilities before we need them would be good.
1) Plans by me will be deliberately holding off on Phase 2 of Tendrils for now, because I'm taking seriously the claim that we should avoid expanding our Red Zone operations until ZOCOM is ready. If we had access to super-glacier mines and Red Zone border offensives, I wouldn't feel this way, but I do. So as far as I'm concerned, the Q2 plan shouldn't have tendrils, and about 4-5 dice of work on tendrils should happen in Q3 and Q4, to position us for Q1 completion. Again, I've already explained my reasons at greater length, so please read my earlier posts on the subject if you disagree with me here.

2) My policy in writing draft plans is not to include options that haven't been statted out. If claw deployment is an attractive option (i.e. one that isn't mainly an income-enhancer at a time when income-enhancers don't help us much), I'll probably shift dice to it. I like to avoid doing that before I know what the cost per die and other parameters of a project are.

3) Already on the list.
4) Already on the list.
5) Already on the list.
6) Already on the list, seriously, did you read the list? :p

All of those projects will take about 18 dice (Claws uncounted). So three quarters of projects there.
Nothing may be urgent, but delaying a Plan Goal for optimisation reasons this close to the end point is a pointless risk. Things could roll badly, or suddenly increase in Energy usage, or get bombed.
My plan is to do the bulk of the work on the processing plants in Q3. If we roll badly enough, we throw several dice at them in Q4, problem solved.

If we get bombed, that doesn't count against Plan commitments as long as we built enough plants. Plus, Nod on the back foot.

If we "suddenly increase in Energy usage," and I'm not entirely sure I know what that means... Well, we can slam out more Energy in several ways if we really have to. We've got the Phase 8 fusion reactors coming this turn, which covers all the Energy-hungry Plan requirements (Anadyr, the last carrier yard, the Mastodon factories, et cetera). Crystal beam laser rollout is good for +10 Energy, and Bergen Phase 3 is good for +4. One is required for this Plan; the other is something we're seriously working towards. That's enough to compensate for most other things we might do, though if we really want to do Ground Force Zone Armor and the Seattle yard (both desirable), we'll need a ninth phase of fusion rollout just to make everything work.

I'd prefer to finish off what we need with the current tech, before we speculate on the next tech. New tech rollouts are always more expensive than we expect.
Note that refitting the last of the current plants is already on my list. Q3 plus Q4 provides ample time to build the Phase 2 processing plants. Refitting with Improved Hewlett-Gardner, by contrast, is something we can do at our leisure.

I'm not seeing the problem.

I am also game for grabbing Kane by the ankles and shaking him until the Tacitus and his unhodly STU stockpiles fall out.
Kane has very slippery ankles.
 
I'm trying to be truthful, not a persuasive liar.
Was just pointing of that is was funny. Stop taking things like an attack.

Again, I've already explained my reasons at greater length, so please read my earlier posts on the subject if you disagree with me here.
I can read your posts and disagree with them. Is this not something you can understand?

Note that refitting the last of the current plants is already on my list. Q3 plus Q4 provides ample time to build the Phase 2 processing plants. Refitting with Improved Hewlett-Gardner, by contrast, is something we can do at our leisure.
As mentioned, we tend to underestimate the rollout costs of new tech. We can do the Phase 2 Processing Plants now. But feature creep is something that you are intending on doing.
Can we fit in the Phase 2 Improved Hewlett-Gardner Processing Plants? Because we'll have to do them if we push that tech upgrade button. And it might be more Energy intensive. (Which is what the comment was about.) We don't know.
We can do the higher tech refits at our leisure, but not the processing capacity increase.
 
The Improved Hewlett Gardener Process is due to getting 'Basic Tiberium Studies' from the Nod gacha, and is projected to be a very small increase (~5%) in our STUs. The refits are going to be very, very, very cheap compared to the current round of refits (+2 STUs vs +18 STUS).

It really isn't urgent, and IMO can be done at our leisure.
 
@Ithillid , would you care to comment on that? I would think that since the overall size of Ground Force is known, Treasury has at least a rough idea of how big and expensive the factories required to supply it (in Phases 2 and on of the program) will be.

They are likely to be around the same size, or a little bigger. But you are not going to see anything where wave 3+ is doubling the size of the factories or nonsense like that.

The CRP process takes more or less arbitrary biological waste and uses gene-tailored bacteria(?) and enzymes(?) to process it into theoretically edible starches.

Might it be possible to re-engineer the process to create long-chain hydrocarbons as biofuel? GDI still uses hydrocarbon fuels for some purposes, and they're clearly synthetic, so there might be a way to get better fuel synthesis out of this.

CRP Biofuel is something where it is possible with the right bacterial, chemical and enzymatic inputs. Right now, you don't have those strains or enough processors to test potential strains.

Mind you, it might not actually be worth doing, because it might not be more efficient than synthesizing the fuel directly from tiberium or by whatever chemical processes GDI already has. I imagine that it would be gated behind, at least, Tarberry Development and possibly some degree of deployment of both tarberries and CRP.
Mostly just CRP. Won't be nearly as efficient as it is compared to food storage, making ethanol is something that you have kind of mastered, but it is something you can do.
 
1) Plans by me will be deliberately holding off on Phase 2 of Tendrils for now, because I'm taking seriously the claim that we should avoid expanding our Red Zone operations until ZOCOM is ready. If we had access to super-glacier mines and Red Zone border offensives, I wouldn't feel this way, but I do. So as far as I'm concerned, the Q2 plan shouldn't have tendrils, and about 4-5 dice of work on tendrils should happen in Q3 and Q4, to position us for Q1 completion. Again, I've already explained my reasons at greater length, so please read my earlier posts on the subject if you disagree with me here.

I was honestly hoping for 2 dice a quarter that way its a nice steady commitment over a one year period which may help minimize the downside of finishing it after reallocation.

Make it obvious you plan it to take a year and pour in steady effort just after a very successful surge of the initial steps. Its the most reasonable behavior anyone could expect from the Treasury.
 
I'm betting that we could get a nice chunk of PS to finish Harvesting Tendrils through Interdepartmental favors. I'd still prefer to go for a possible (23% CoS) prior/concurrent to that action though.

If it succeeds, great. We've frontloaded all of the resources that we would have gotten for the next year out of that action, increased the efficiency of all future +income options, and secured a lot of funding for the rest of the GDI.

If it fails, then we have a pretty easy way to judge how much +75 resources/turn is to the rest of the GDI. If it's not worth much, we can rest easy in waiting to finish the deployment. If it's worth a lot (and considering that it is more than enough to pay for every single one of our permanent expenses, plus some, it probably is), then we really, really should finish it,

I really like the idea of coming into the negotations with the goodwill of either completing, or attempting to complete the Harvesting Tendrils, to set the tone of the negotiations.
 
I really like the idea of coming into the negotations with the goodwill of either completing, or attempting to complete the Harvesting Tendrils, to set the tone of the negotiations.
Except they will already have the goodwill of us meeting or exceeding our plan goals, most exceptionally in the very functions that the tendrils will benefit.

Its extremely hard for me to believe that will be worth anything AND we have seen narratively that there are negative consequences to such surging. We have reason to stretch out the project to insure proper AND SAFE deployment.

A successful surge that is filled with stories about guys getting maimed due to rushed training on equipment they are now forced to used is not gonna produce PS.
 
So, there are a few things I have been thinking about as major mechanical shifts, primarily for the purposes of reducing the amount of planning thunderdome that happens, and to prevent the updates from ballooning more than they already have.

First is:
Dice Capacity: With any bureaucratic system, there are limits to how effectively big it can be, and how much it can effectively manage at any given time. Right now, you are closing in on hitting that point. When you get above 60 dice (For Seo specifically here, it is something where other department heads might well not be as good at bureaucracy and therefore not as good at managing the systems) you will start getting increasing penalties as things shift. So, at 61 dice you have a -1 penalty for all dice. At 62 you have -2. At 63, you have -4, and so on and so forth.

Second is a shift in how things are planned.

[ ] Long Term Systematic Planning Organization (New)
While GDI has operated for the last decade on an emergency wartime basis, systematically organizing around a longer term planning basis is likely to save significant resources in the long run, as dedicated teams working on projects long term are noticeably more efficient, and are typically putting less strain on the system than various attempts at shock effort.
(-2 Free Dice) (-20 Capital Goods) (Significantly reorganizes project management) (Increases Dice Capacity)


If you take it,

[ ] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 4)
With the initial production shock labored into existence, further development is predicated on massive investment and expansion of the project, laying massive production lines, and setting them in motion towards one of the largest projects ever envisioned by the Global Defense Initiative.
(Progress 143/1200: 20 resources per die) (+32 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -8 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)
(Progress 0/2400: 20 resources per die) (+64 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -16 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)


would become something like

[ ] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 4)
With the initial production shock labored into existence, further development is predicated on massive investment and expansion of the project, laying massive production lines, and setting them in motion towards one of the largest projects ever envisioned by the Global Defense Initiative.
(Progress 143/1200) (+32 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -8 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)
(Progress 0/2400) (+64 Capital Goods, -2 Labor, -16 Energy) (+1 to Infrastructure dice)
-[ ] Assign one die: -15R/turn until completion. (13 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (43 turns expected until phase 5 completion)
-[ ] Assign two dice: -30R/turn until completion. (6 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (22 turns expected until phase 5 completion)
-[ ] Assign three dice: -45R/turn until completion. (4 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (13 turns expected until phase 5 completion)
-[ ] Assign four dice: -60R/turn until completion. (3 turns expected until phase 4 completion) (11 turns expected until phase 5 completion)


Free dice would be still able to be moved around at will, and it would not affect every project, just the big long ones. Now, there are a lot of details to this shift that I am still working out, but I do want to get some feedback and input from the thread over this, because it is a big huge change.
 
Now, there are a lot of details to this shift that I am still working out, but I do want to get some feedback and input from the thread over this, because it is a big huge change.
Change is bad and this is change so it's bad.

It would certainly help a lot with the huge amount of both dice and option bloat that the past dozen turns have had. It kind of reminds me of the Austrian Empire planquest over on SB, actually, which has been going for half a dozen turns, so the system works, at least.
 
First is:
Dice Capacity: With any bureaucratic system, there are limits to how effectively big it can be, and how much it can effectively manage at any given time. Right now, you are closing in on hitting that point. When you get above 60 dice (For Seo specifically here, it is something where other department heads might well not be as good at bureaucracy and therefore not as good at managing the systems) you will start getting increasing penalties as things shift. So, at 61 dice you have a -1 penalty for all dice. At 62 you have -2. At 63, you have -4, and so on and so forth.
how about instead instead of increasing the number of dice past 60 we instead upgrade the quality of existing dice , for example a 1D100 becomes a 1D150 or a 1D200 ?
 
how about instead instead of increasing the number of dice past 60 we instead upgrade the quality of existing dice , for example a 1D100 becomes a 1D150 or a 1D200 ?
Partially because the forum dice rolling software does not support sizes larger than 100. So (and I have talked about it for a while) the likely shift is going to be decreasing dice sizes and rolling more. So you go from 1d100 to 2d50. Increasing the average roll noticeably and normalizing the dice more.
 
The changes look good. We have trouble focusing on long term projects, hi especially when we have power requirements competing with the big ol factories so am option that pushes us to commit without constant debate every turn will help speed things along
 
I would really like this change.
I actually actively dislike the current system allowing us starting one project, abandon it half finished, and then come back to it an year later with little reprecussions.
Each time I tried to see it in real life context I could not help it but feel it would have been an unholy mess.
So "investing" dice in projects sounds better to me.

Can we cancel a project to get dice back in case of an emergency?
 
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Yes, but there would be a penalty applied. I am not yet entirely sure what that penalty would be, I am leaning towards something like D20% progress lost, or +5 resources per die to restart the project.

What about say, we invest two dice at first then reduce to one then increase investment to three. What sort of consequences would that have, as it's not a full work stoppage?
 
I actually actively dislike the current system allowing us starting one project, abandon it half finished, and then come back to it an year later with little reprecussions.
I think I remember a project that we left only partially completed for a few turns, that had a progress decrease penalty appear when resumed. Forgot what it was though, although I think it was a Yellow Zone project since Tiberium eating some of the structures during the lull was mentioned.
 
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