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Heck, anyone looking at the balance of power of the Empire from outside would be confused as to why the colleges do not get 1- or even 2- votes at the Elector's Meet, considering the power they de facto hold in practice.
It's because that would have too much votes to the Emperor and/or Reikland. I think it also limits the amount of politicking they can do, and the risk they take sides. To paraphrase WH40K speaking of the Space Marines, « they serve the Empire, they do not rule it ».
 
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It's because that would have too much votes to the Emperor and/or Reikland. But yeah, they really should get one.
While they're at it, they should give at least a vote each to the other Cults of the Empire, unless they turn down the offer (Shallyans might, as they generally refuse to play politics for fear of it getting in the way of helping people).
 
While they're at it, they should give at least a vote each to the other Cults of the Empire, unless they turn down the offer (Shallyans might, as they generally refuse to play politics for fear of it getting in the way of helping people).
I'm pretty sure the Cult of Taal was offered one by Magnus, but they refused.

(They have a similar stance against politics in the modern era)
 
I'm pretty sure the Cult of Taal was offered one by Magnus, but they refused.

(They have a similar stance against politics in the modern era)
Actually, thinking on this more- Taal said no, the Cult of Rhya is generally joined at the hip and similarly strives to stay out of politics, no one would ever give one to Ranald, Shallyans would probably refuse, Myrmidia has limited presence in the Empire as of yet...

I think that basically just leaves Manaan and Morr, and there's segments of the Cult of Morr that don't want anything to do with the affairs of living, along with not having a formal head and being almost completely decentralized, and the head of the Cult of Manaan is based in Marienburg, so that's right out.

So there actually isn't anyone left, I don't think.
 
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I'm just glad someone agrees that it did happen and I didn't hallucinate it!

And yeah very likely in flux lore wise, but the kinda thing I think a good emperor and one interested in social reform might try.
Not sure if it's where you found it, but i do belive that the Enemey Within premade campaign for the warhammer rpg system, makes mention of Karl Franz issuing a dirictive legalzing mutants, though i'm not sure how cannonical that is.
 
Not sure if it's where you found it, but i do belive that the Enemey Within premade campaign for the warhammer rpg system, makes mention of Karl Franz issuing a dirictive legalzing mutants, though i'm not sure how cannonical that is.
1st edition RP, so for quest purposes, assume it's not canon.
 
Not sure if it's where you found it, but i do belive that the Enemey Within premade campaign for the warhammer rpg system, makes mention of Karl Franz issuing a dirictive legalzing mutants, though i'm not sure how cannonical that is.
Considering I'm pretty sure both he and Boris Todbringer die in that campaign, 's probably fairly safe to say it isn't at all.
 
Heck, anyone looking at the balance of power of the Empire from outside would be confused as to why the colleges do not get 1- or even 2- votes at the Elector's Meet, considering the power they de facto hold in practice.
As has been alluded to by others - they tried to get one in canon under Karl Franz, but the other Electors voted against it because they assumed (probably correctly) that the Colleges' Elector would almost always vote with the Emperor, which would have centralized power more than they were comfortable with since the Emperor already had something of a voting bloc behind him. And of course all 3 Sigmarite Electors were dead-set against.

More generally, regarding the "the Colleges are too powerful to plausibly be excised" take, I'd be wary of extrapolating too far from the aftermath of Dieter's clusterfuckery. Most notably, the rest of the Empire never actually really tried to get rid of the Colleges then. The Witch Hunters had a go (and those who went after the Colleges' main campuses got exactly what they had coming), but the Colleges never actually had to contend against the full power of even one province, much less the Empire as a whole. If the Colleges got busted violating the Articles, that could potentially change, as at that point it looks less like "the Grand Theogonist has a bee in his bonnet" and more like the Colleges could actually be an active threat. It should be noted that while the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels was a consummate shitshow, it didn't actually involve breaches of the Articles per se AFAIK.
 
It should be noted that while the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels was a consummate shitshow, it didn't actually involve breaches of the Articles per se AFAIK.
Well, I'd say almost destroying Altdorf definitely violated the bits saying "obey the laws of the Empire".

And there's Article 6.
6. No Magister may cast a spell or enchantment outside of the theatre of war and in public view without first being requested to by the Emperor, the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire, or another legitimate employer as defined by the Articles of this document. All spells and enchantments cast without these permission may only be done so with and for demonstrably good reason.
 
Ah, so one of the valleys in Karak Eight Peaks is the legendary Spiders Gorge?

EDIT: Okay, I see @Valarauko rated this post Insightful and I feel I must clarify -- not that one. Or that one. Or that one. :V
DOUBLE EDIT: ...basically, what I'm saying is that the statistic that every fantasy setting has a Spiders Gorge is misleading. Tolkein's Legendarium, which is filled with Spiders Gorges, is an outlier and should not be counted.

Are we... are we becoming Sauron? We may actually be getting closer and closer to being Sauron as time goes on, actually.
 
Well, I'd say almost destroying Altdorf definitely violated the bits saying "obey the laws of the Empire".
Assuming the other Electors would approve an Imperial law making it illegal to wreck another province's capital, smh. :V

You're right, though, speaking more seriously. I shouldn't have said "didn't involve breaching the Articles" when what I was actually thinking of was "didn't breach the Articles against using Dhar etc. that carry built-in clauses featuring phrases like 'fire and the sword.'" There does seem to be something of a gradation of importance between the Articles though, since "casting a spell in public without authorization of a legitimate employer" isn't something that carries an instant death sentence like deliberately touching Dhar does.
 
Now, i am not saying that we should forge magic rings to hand out to elector counts, that are connected to another magic ring we keep for ourselves.
But i am hinting at it quite heavily. :V
 
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Now, i am not saying that we should forge magic rings to hand our to elector counts, that are connected to another magic ring we keep for ourselves.
But i am hinting at it quite heavily. :V
Dunno about magic rings, but I was thinking that we could maybe cash in some dwarf favour to get the imperial family a child-sized runic item, like a small belt, that wards against magic/chaos, toxins/disease, and more physical threats. Maybe with some sort of alarm rune as well if the dwarves know how to build a panic button. It being small would be a feature instead of a bug in that it is specifically intended to keep the young heirs safe. Don't know what the process is for gifting such things and actually having them used is though.

Feel like the dwarves would also understand the motivation of "gotta keep the children safe" very well.
 
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Dunno about magic rings, but I was thinking that we could maybe cash in some dwarf favour to get the imperial family a child-sized runic item, like a small belt, that wards against magic/chaos, toxins/disease, and more physical threats. Maybe with some sort of alarm rune as well if the dwarves know how to build a panic button. It being small would be a feature instead of a bug in that it is specifically intended to keep the young heirs safe. Don't know what the process is for gifting such things and actually having them used is though.

Feel like the dwarves would also understand the motivation of "gotta keep the children safe" very well.
I'm not sure how this would help us become Sauron.
Also i'm sure the empire is quite capable of getting runic items for the emperors heir if it so chooses.
 
Assuming the other Electors would approve an Imperial law making it illegal to wreck another province's capital, smh. :V

You're right, though, speaking more seriously. I shouldn't have said "didn't involve breaching the Articles" when what I was actually thinking of was "didn't breach the Articles against using Dhar etc. that carry built-in clauses featuring phrases like 'fire and the sword.'" There does seem to be something of a gradation of importance between the Articles though, since "casting a spell in public without authorization of a legitimate employer" isn't something that carries an instant death sentence like deliberately touching Dhar does.

Treason and murder are generally illegal and that is how the other electors would have seen it. The issue is who the hell is going to send their armies to fight a camus full of wizards for the sake of an Emperor who was loathed by all?
 
Treason and murder are generally illegal and that is how the other electors would have seen it. The issue is who the hell is going to send their armies to fight a camus full of wizards for the sake of an Emperor who was loathed by all?
Those who see something to gain by doing so.

Either political. Maybe a bid for the throne themselves. Or ideological. Which was why the templars attacked them.
 
As has been alluded to by others - they tried to get one in canon under Karl Franz, but the other Electors voted against it because they assumed (probably correctly) that the Colleges' Elector would almost always vote with the Emperor, which would have centralized power more than they were comfortable with since the Emperor already had something of a voting bloc behind him. And of course all 3 Sigmarite Electors were dead-set against.

More generally, regarding the "the Colleges are too powerful to plausibly be excised" take, I'd be wary of extrapolating too far from the aftermath of Dieter's clusterfuckery. Most notably, the rest of the Empire never actually really tried to get rid of the Colleges then. The Witch Hunters had a go (and those who went after the Colleges' main campuses got exactly what they had coming), but the Colleges never actually had to contend against the full power of even one province, much less the Empire as a whole. If the Colleges got busted violating the Articles, that could potentially change, as at that point it looks less like "the Grand Theogonist has a bee in his bonnet" and more like the Colleges could actually be an active threat. It should be noted that while the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels was a consummate shitshow, it didn't actually involve breaches of the Articles per se AFAIK.

I never said the wizards would win. I said they would not lose. Big difference.

The wizards have a huge tradition of not losing, seeing as they had been hiding and even exercising influence before Teclis even organised them. The Hedgefolk still keep to those traditions. And the wizards were weaker magically and politically back then, plus much less united. They can now hide better, and punch back better, as has been shown.

Also, while I agree that the wizards would lose if they have to fight a war of attrition or a war of firepower with the Empire, I find that info to be completely immaterial. Yes, it is likely true, even if the Empire would have to expend a ton of resources. Heck, it is possible that, as you say, a province would be enough, (most) wizards are squishy even if they can artillerate, a huge army would be a problem. But that is not how it works, its never how this works, I am not talking about a "who would win" in a flat battlefield here, I am discussing realpolitik.

The wizards won't fight the Empire on an open field, it won't be merely a subject of the Empire spending enough resources, the wizards will be hiding, assasinating, spending political favour, crashing economies, calling favours, sabotaging, using guerilla warfare etc. Or they'd be doing nothing but hiding until another Emperor comes in, and good luck uncovering them, half the colleges can just phase out. And the Empire, or even a province, won't be able to just bring the (war)hammer down on their heads. Even assuming the wizards lack political connections completely and are fully insular, (which is not how it works), the Empire is always besieged by a hundred threats, plus bickering with itself. Nothing sort of a chaos invasion will bring its full armies to march, sometimes not even that. Even EC cannot bring their armies to bear, what with beastmen, vampires, orcs and... other ECs waiting for a moment of weakness. Nobody will want to expend too much resources going after the wizards, and some would hate to lose wizard support. To be a power pole nobody but a complete idiot would think of getting rid of (or someone dumber than a complete idiot, such as Dieter IV) you do not have to be the kind of entity that would win, you'd just have to be the kind of entity that it'd really, really hurt to lose as an ally/ gain as an enemy.

To state it in a different way, most of your arguments would arguably apply to any single Elector Count province. Let's assume an ideal scenario when the other ECs would not feel threatened by such a thing and support the obliteration and conquest of the province, for some reason. The Empire as a whole would steamroll the countship if it used all its power to and, if we are talking about a weaker one, a single of the strongest provinces could beat them. But that is not the subject at hand, is it? The subject at hand is, they can fortify and draw things out, the Empire would be losing a big part of their powerbase, politics would happen, human carrion smelling weakness would gather around those spending the most and chaos and orcs would be left to their own devices.

The full army can't be gathered, the full political might cannot be exerted, and the Empire consists of many conflicting power blocs, of which wizards are but one. A scenario of Empire vs wizards is as unlikely as a scenario of Empire vs Stirland. And yes, it can happen, Stirland could be conquered by vampires, and a second Dieter IV could come to power. But it could be very painful , and unless the threat was existential, it would more likely than not result in a long stalemate and another enemy to the pile the Empire has to contend with.

Edit: which is not to say that they are impervious, losing legitimacy by being considered a corrupting influence would still mean that people would prefer amputation and risk of death to certain death by gangrene, just that the realpolitik does most of the heavy lifting for keeping them hard to assault.
 
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I think to say that if you dug the wizards out of Aldorf at the very least the city would not be livable due to the fallout from the last defenders.
The issue would be more in attrition- the Empire not supporting the colleges means that children that show the potential for magic are always burned again, and recruitment to the colleges would become rather difficult.

The Hedgefolk still keep to those traditions. And the wizards were weaker magically and olitically back then, plus much less united. They can now hide better, and punch back better, as has been shown.
I'd contest the point on "hide better". Maybe the Grey College, sure, but the Hedgefolk's whole society is based around staying in secret, while any College Magister that goes deep into their Wind becomes incredibly obvious that they're a wizard.


You know, it's funny- before looking up the sources right now, I never realized that the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels didn't exist until 8th edition, and it resulting in the Colleges getting outlawed wasn't until 4th edition RP, far as I can tell.
 
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The issue would be more in attrition- the Empire not supporting the colleges means that children that show the potential for magic are always burned again, and recruitment to the colleges would become rather difficult.


I'd contest the point on "hide better". Maybe the Grey College, sure, but the Hedgefolk's whole society is based around staying in secret, while any College Magister that goes deep into their wind becomes incredibly obvious that they're a wizard.


You know, it's funny- before looking up the sources right now, I never realized that the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels didn't exist until 8th edition, and it resulting in the Colleges getting outlawed wasn't until 4th edition RP, far as I can tell.

Recruitment attrition may weaken them, but it would take centuries to root them out, and that assumes the wizards do not have strong networks.

I am claiming they can hide better because they managed to hide in the Dieter years despite the fact that the witch hunters, who were explicitly taught to hunt wizards, could not really root out or find the wizards even outside Altdorf.
 
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