Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
@BoneyM : Seriously, my hat's off to you for making all of the options appealing. Hell, the least appealing of the four is Karak Eight Peaks, which, considering how awesome K8P is and how it's home to a lot of our favorite people (including a Hysh Archmage Emperor Dragon that is something of a scholar and Kragg the Grimm), is saying a LOT.

One question, though: are Carcassone and Kislev going to be part of and contributing to the project themselves? Can we at least extend them the offer? Considering how much each of them stands to benefit and all...oh, and can we invite the Jade College, too? They're the biggest experts on Waystones in the Empire, and I imagine being able to visit the heart of Laurelorn would be way too fascinating and enticing to pass up for them.
 
Darth. said:
Boris is already talking of reactivating existing stones like it's a given and maybe even building new ones.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Was he? He made no mention of it. He did talk a lot about his ideal goals for the project, and that to achieve those goals he and Kislev would be ready to spend ludicrous amounts of resources. Why not time as well?
Darth. said:
You want to help Kislev, a project success will do so. And our best chance to do that is via the Elves and Dwarves - not hags and witches with seemingly widow modified Waystones. I'd rather not have our solution include "a specific human god blessing/modifying our stones" as a requirement given that we want non-widow nations plus non-human nations to be able to use it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm not picking Kislev just to help them, thought that is a bonus, I'm picking them because I like their ambition, because the pitch that Boris gave us is the closest to the world-saving project that Waystones were being marketed as during the job vote.
 
I have been noticing a concern in this thread that various research options should be avoided because the solution generated by such options might have some unique
(to that option), necessary components. I don't think that this is should be a concern since any solution is an improvement to the status quo. Personally I think what we should be concerned with is how each option will make the project easier or harder as well as what the sponsors goal is. E.g. do the Elves want to take all the waystone energy to place their forest in a pocket dimension, (very unlikely and exaggerated to make the point) would Belegar want to disconnect K8P, would Thorgim want to reactivate golden era artifacts? Related to this is how willing would the sponsor be to share the resultant energy to other organizations.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
One question, though: are Carcassone and Kislev going to be part of and contributing to the project themselves? Can we at least extend them the offer? Considering how much each of them stands to benefit and all...oh, and can we invite the Jade College, too? They're the biggest experts on Waystones in the Empire, and I imagine being able to visit the heart of Laurelorn would be way too fascinating and enticing to pass up for them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Once the project begins, bringing in new contributors will be one way to pursue it.
 
Hmm I'm curious, are Grail Knights and Damsels able to have children in quest canon? Not that familiar with bretonnia lore.
 
Resonant said:
Hmm I'm curious, are Grail Knights and Damsels able to have children in quest canon? Not that familiar with bretonnia lore.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Grail Knights can, as every King of Bretonnia must be a Grail Knight and many have had children. I can't find any mention of Damsels having children, but it's an open question whether that's a matter of changed biology, sensible precautions, or being free to withdraw from public life for the course of the pregnancy.
 
Picking Kislev is likely to save us alot of AP because any actions/leg work that can be taken by non-magic people can be assumed to be taken with little to no effort on Mathilde's part.

Want a map of all the known waystones including ones not currently working? DONE.

Want some sort of exotic materials for the project like Dragon Bone or power stones? DONE.

Need to comb though old and fragmented historical documents to find out what happened to this waystone? There is a team on it.
 
Last edited:
Truthfully helping Kislev might sound appeling but Eonir needs our help just as much. Hell she said they are on the brink of extinction herself.

More to point screwing over Sigmarite ambitions over Nordland is even more tempting to me.

Also that library is better than White Tower which thread has spend dozen AP to just on the off chance that Elfcation can get us in.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
I disagree very heavily with the premise of this statement, that Boris would be unique in being disappointed, to say the least, at one or two decades of work with nothing to show for it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm not saying Boris is the only one who's going to be putting pressure on us if we're taking a decade or more to make noticeable progress on the Waystones.

The difference is that if you tell a dwarf longbeard "I know this is taking a long time, but sometimes you have to put in a decade or two to do a proper, careful job of something," they will grumble about you but grudgingly (though not Grudgingly) admit that you have a point. They won't stop pressuring you, but they'll at least accept on a bone-deep level that you probably have relatable reasons for delay.

...

And if you tell an Eonir "I know this is taking a long time, but sometimes you have to put in a decade or two to do something right," they will probably laugh and be all like "I know right" and ramble about how they spent a gap decade just practicing basketweaving or something silly like that after Elf College or whatever. Literally the only reason they're going to be very worried about it is if there's a hair-on-fire existential emergency tearing down on them, or if they're sentimental about you and worried you'll die of old age while still in your adolescence and never finish your first Real Project (so tragic!)

...

If you tell Boris "I know this is taking a long time, but sometimes you have to put in a decade or two to do something right," he may very well intellectually acknowledge the point. He may admit that yes, this is a massive project and limited returns on the vast investments he's made are still returns and that if this were easy everyone would already know how to do it...

But he's also going to be thinking that at this rate, you may well return him nothing proportionate to his investment before he dies of old age, and that Kislev (which will be attacked by Chaos in great force again, and again, and again) might have been better off investing in more normal defenses.
 
Darth. said:
You want to help Kislev, a project success will do so. And our best chance to do that is via the Elves and Dwarves - not hags and witches with seemingly widow modified Waystones. If that's the case, I'd rather not have our solution include "a specific human god blessing/modifying our stones" as a requirement given that we want non-widow nations plus non-human nations to be able to use it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A project success is the best way to help kislev, eventually, if kislev is still around at that point. I'd judge that as more likely than not, but not exactly guaranteed. If we want to help Kislev on a useful timescale, the best way to do that is probably to do it in kislev.

If we want our solution to not include a specific human god blessing/modifying the waystones, we're the ones in charge of the project! The elves are also probably not going to want that and are gonna be supplying a not insignificant amount of the knowledge, even at their least helpful!
 
Last edited:
BoneyM said:
Grail Knights can, as every King of Bretonnia must be a Grail Knight and many have had children. I can't find any mention of Damsels having children, but it's an open question whether that's a matter of changed biology, sensible precautions, or being free to withdraw from public life for the course of the pregnancy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Is Duke Huebald a Grail Knight or just a regular Knight of the Realm?
For that matter, are Dukes expected to become Grail Knights, eventually?
 
I quite like all of our options, but I'm cautiously leaning K8P > Kislev > Laurelorn > College > Carcassonne

K8P is the least exciting option because we know exactly what it involves and offers, which is itself a big win in my book. My biggest concern with Laurelorn is that we have no idea what kind of politics we're walking into (besides the Nordland ones) and we only have the word of an underdressed forest to go on, and her word isn't exactly easy to independently verify.
Kislev is my second choice because they have every reason to want this to succeed, and the situation seems politically ripe for getting shit done with relatively few headaches which can't be stabbed.
 
fictionfan said:
Picking Kislev is likely to save us alot of AP because any actions/leg work that can be taken by non-magic people can be assumed to be taken with little to no effort on Mathilde's part.

Want a map of all the known waystones including ones not currently working? DONE.

Want some sort of exotic materials for the project like Dragon Bone or power stones? DONE.

Need to comb though old and fragmented historical documents to find out what happened to this waystone? There is a team on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actually exotic materials will be easier with Carcassone since they already supply the Fay Enchantress.
 
It feels sort of appropriate that the Eonir who initiated the very idea of the Waystone project would also be the ones who would host it.
 
Resonant said:
Is Duke Huebald a Grail Knight or just a regular Knight of the Realm?
For that matter, are Dukes expected to become Grail Knights, eventually?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Canonically Alberic, duke of Bordeleaux inherited when he was in the middle of his errantry and has never felt like there was an opportunity to take any sort of break from his responsibilities to the duchy.
 
fictionfan said:
Picking Kislev is likely to save us alot of AP because any actions/leg work that can be taken by non-magic people can be assumed to be taken with little to no effort on Mathilde's part.

Want a map of all the known waystones including ones not currently working? DONE.

Want some sort of exotic materials for the project like Dragon Bone or power stones? DONE.

Need to comb though old and fragmented historical documents to find out what happened to this waystone? There is a team on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Grey College and K8P are just as good or even better than Kislev on that count. Carcassone (with the river) is also good to have rare ressources coming.
 
Resonant said:
Is Duke Huebald a Grail Knight or just a regular Knight of the Realm?
For that matter, are Dukes expected to become Grail Knights, eventually?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Knight of the Realm. It's considered sufficient for Dukes, though they are expected to cleave even closer to the ideals of chivalry than lesser Knights are. if a Duke took the Questing Vow and sought to become a Grail Knight, that would require them to surrender their claim on the Duchy.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
I'm not picking Kislev just to help them, thought that is a bonus, I'm picking them because I like their ambition, because the pitch that Boris gave us is the closest to the world-saving project that Waystones were being marketed as during the job vote
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
His "world saving pitch" is the natural result of a project success. There's no "we can push back Chaos if we figure out how to build Waystones but only if we figure it out in Kislev". You're being taken in by the marketing hype of a politician talking about the ideal results of a project we're not even sure is feasible with said ideal results somehow bring possible only if they're done in that politician's district? You want a project success, the writings in the library are our best bet. If we overachieve with that, you think Kislev won't throw resources at whoever is needed to build/repair Waystones for them later?
 
reignonyrparade said:
A project success is the best way to help kislev, eventually, if kislev is still around at that point. I'd judge that as more likely than not, but not exactly guaranteed. If we want to help Kislev on a useful timescale, the best way to do that is probably to do it in kislev.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Frankly the only way Kislev is destroyed is if there's a next great war. At that point, our presence in Laurelorn or Kislev isn't going to make a difference considering everyone shits themselves and runs to Kislev to reinforce them. It'd be to our advantage in such a case to not have the project right in Praag.
 
fictionfan said:
Remember that time our paper on the ratman civil war sucked? In Kislev we could have a legion of paperworkers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In the Grey College too. If we manage to woo other Imperial mages there will be paperworkers everywhere, and in Laurelorn we have The Carrot for that. Also, if Max comes that would do it, no matter the place.
 
HungryHamadryad said:
Kislev is my second choice because they have every reason to want this to succeed, and the situation seems politically ripe for getting shit done with relatively few headaches which can't be stabbed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Addressing you plus people saying the elves are sabotaging the project if we don't put it in laurelorn:

The elves want it to succeed just as much, if not more, they just didn't say it and instead gave us a tangible offer of knowledge/reward for picking them because they thought it self-evident - eventual extinction from chaos if things don't change and/or Nordland keeps cutting down the Waystone trees. There's no such thing as "our backers will throw obstacles in our way because they're not Kislev or because they're elves".

And frankly I want to see what Boney does with elf lore. Iirc the elves have already said they'd give us Waystone related knowledge even if we didn't put the project in Laurelorn but personal access for our own use is restricted unless the project is there. That's reasonable.

Meanwhile Kislev is cynical to the point they're saying "yha this is very very critical project to Kislev but we won't spend any resources on it unless you put it here because we don't think it'd be useful to us otherwise" (according to Boney who said their cynism will stop them from funding/providing lore to it if not in Kislev since they're not convinced it will benefit them if it isn't there). Why does that make Kislev the nice guys and the elves the bad guys? If anything it's not the elves sabotaging the project, it's Kislev saying we won't give you possibly critical lore (something I am skeptical of regardless) unless you come here.

I want nothing to do with that level of cynicism or obstinacy when it comes to a radical, difficult, possibly world changing project.
 
I have slept, and now have thoughts:

1) Some people are massively undervaluing the value of coin.

Laurelorn's waystones are made out of money. They require large amounts of gold and silver to function. We're not going to be able to pay for waystone construction with EIC funds if we're basing it on the Eonir technique - we're going to need huge amounts of wealth. Wealth that Laurelorn most certainly doesn't have any more.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the underground linkages of dwarven waystones - that allow the magic to pass through more easily - may also be made of silver and/or gold. Silver crops up a lot as a tool for channelling power, both divine and arcane.

Kislev provides as much silver as we need, the Dwarves do too. The Grey College and Laurelorn don't. Carcassonne? I'm not sure.

2) We can get Kragg onboard

Kragg is not immune to "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" you just need the right tool to motivate him: Bok. Understanding it is his current driving ambition, and likely requires Elven aid - or at the minimum Mathilde's aid - to get anywhere. Bok's structure may have a lot in common with waystones with its combination of runes and magic so we'll want to study it more for the project anyway.

3) We don't want a success that needs the Eonir to be the first success

There are lots of unique resources, and in several locations it's possible we'll get a result that requires resources only that group can provide. BUT if we come up with a solution that needs Ice Witches? Eonir will keep the project going. If we come up with one that requires Damsels? Eonir will keep it going.

If we come up with one that requires the Eonir? There's a strong chance that that's project over, library closed, back to isolationism apart from whatever payment they owe the dwarves.

Not guaranteed, but I don't want to be stuck relying on elves to be forthcoming and outgoing. It's bad enough that we're nigh certain to end up needing the dwarves.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top