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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
[x] The Waystone Project
[x] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks

Anything but Edgelord train i guess.
 
Ericwinter said:
For those mentioning that Sylvania is likely to eat up all our free time, I'd like to point out that most of the rulers we've dealt with do, definitely, have extra actions. Abelhelm was trying to turn Stirland into a functional state and still managed to find time to root out the Lahmian conspiracy. Roswita is still dedicating some time to ruling Stirland alongside Sylvania, and so obviously has more energy than just one would take.
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That's not actually true.
BoneyM said:
It occurs to you that you've never heard anyone in the Council reporting to Van Hal re: Stirland's resident Witch Hunters. He may be controlling them personally.
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BoneyM said:
Van Hal didn't just throw Stirland's army at Sylvania, he built up and prepared first, and while doing so the Templars were performing their own investigations.
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He was controlling the Witch Hunters and having them root out the Lahmians, not doing so personally. And Roswita said she's doing basically nothing with Stirland:
BoneyM said:
"Settling the matter of Sylvania is why I took the title of Grand Countess, but the oath I swore when I became it was to Stirland, not Sylvania, and I'm neglecting that oath with every season spent here. One way to resolve that is..."
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Jyn Ryvia said:
The Markgarf is the Intrige/Martal adiver for Rose.

we are to stamp out vampires and vampire cults. that's the job.

We will have a Stwerd, so we can focus in on Martial (army building) and intrigue (Shadow war with the cultests)

that is without saying.

edit: framing it as the steward job is grossly misrepresenting the core of what its about.
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It's not an adviser, whether that be martial, intrigue, or stewardship. We're not on her council at all, and I don't understand why you are framing it in that way. It's an independent posting. She is giving us free rein in Sylvania because she trusts us, so she can focus her time (read: AP) on Stirland. It's the rough equivalent of letting the Hochlander manage the EIC intel network and getting the AP back.
 
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SeptimusMagisto said:
Exactly. That's why I'm voting for Makgraf.

I came to this quest for court intrigue, not freelance adventuring.
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Hmm so Dwarven/Elven court intrigue is no good because we will come across people from either side would be unhappy about what we're doing?
If you want human intrigue we can still get that when some in local cults or legal groups would oppose handing out any Waystones information to outsiders since her rank of Lady Magister is not known to every little groups that could care less of what's going on in the Colleges.
Would be amusing if we interact with Pan's family in the Jade Order as they would be checking out if Mathy is good for their loved one.
 
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HavocKeeper said:
Not really, but I don't like the pessimistic idea of "we're doomed to be fighting vampires forever".

I'm just trying to say that we shouldn't make too many assumptions of what it's going to be like before we're even there.
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for me anyway its less not being able to think that it will be made enjoyable in some respect but us passing up world changing or pivotal positions to play cleanup in Sylavania when other Wizards could easily do this job and call us in if needed. I mean i fully expect if its chosen in a dozen turns to hear about some important Karak falling or the Royal family being assassinated while we what? Clean up a dumpster fire of a province which we would be still doing in another dozen turns for the end product of a regular province of the empire being added to the Tax registry?
 
picklepikkl said:
That's not actually true.


He was controlling the Witch Hunters and having them root out the Lahmians, not doing so personally. And Roswita said she's doing basically nothing with Stirland:


It's not an adviser, whether that be martial, intrigue, or stewardship. We're not on her council at all, and I don't understand why you are framing it in that way. It's an independent posting. She is giving us free rein in Sylvania because she trusts us, so she can focus her time (read: AP) on Stirland. It's the rough equivalent of letting the Hochlander manage the EIC intel network.
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I admit hyperbole.

but my point is that the focus, by word of Rose, is not nation-building or management, she is fine us dumping that part on someone else. (e.g a stwerd )

want is expected of the job is to head the Martial and Intage part of the project.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Ugh. It's super disheartening to see Markgraf keep going up and up and up. At this point I've basically resigned myself to it winning and am trying to see the bright sides of it, but it's hard - if we take on a project like this, I fully expect to see Mathilde put 110% effort into it like she does with everything else, and that ends with her being in the position for another 50 years while having basically no free time for anything, because Sylvania is just that much of a dumpster fire and getting it up to shape is the work of decades.
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I disagree. Whatever wins, our first conversation will be a discussion of the role's details, or what it looks like. If we go in there and aet the expectation that we're going to slash and burn the vamps down to a managable size rather than personally exterminate them down to the last Lahmian, Roswita smiles and thanks us for taking the job.

I am confident that we will set a reasonable mission statement from the get-go. Oh we'll overachieve at it - as you say, Mathilde can be a workaholic - but we won't be tied into the role unless we choose to be from the beginning, I think.
 
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I will say that for Markgraf I do not see us sitting on it until there is no undead left in Sylvania but doing what we did as the Loremaster. That is doing the job for now as the conquest is precarious using our unique skills and information to stabilize the situation. And then when it is at least reasonably secure and not threatening to collapse at any moment we can sit back and move on. I doubt Boney is going to lock us into any action for anywhere near 50 turns let alone 50 years.
 
To be honest I'm still conflicted by the choice between Markgraf and Waystones.
But I just fine a certain ammount of the arguments against Markgraf kind disingenuous.

I feel like the fact that people are attacking it so hard is simply pushing me more into supporting it.
Unfortunately I have realized over the years I do have a kind of spiteful streak at times.

Honestly if people started talking up the Waystone option instead of tearing down the other one I favour I might not feel this way.
 
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inbred martian said:
for me anyway its less not being able to think that it will be made enjoyable in some respect but us passing up world changing or pivotal positions to play cleanup in Sylavania when other Wizards could easily do this job and call us in if needed. I mean i fully expect if its chosen in a dozen turns to hear about some important Karak falling or the Royal family being assassinated while we what? Clean up a dumpster fire of a province which we would be still doing in another dozen turns for the end product of a regular province of the empire being added to the Tax registry?
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If Karaks are falling things have well and truly gone off the rails in a way that can best be describe as 'full mobilization.' Mathilde jsut got back from an expedition focused on finding out waht happened to the last ones that did, during the literal apocalypses. Dial down your expectations a bit.

Also, though I haven't voted for it, and am not as intimately familiar with the lore as others, pacifying Sylvania is absolutely as monumental as learning some new tricks to play with Waystones; the area has been the prime breeding ground for vampires and necromancers for centuries and periodically requires the Empire to band together to squash it down into compliance, sapping away generations of people and resources in the process. This is not a nothing job.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Mathilde has spoken to Roswita like 5 times total on-screen. It's touching that Roswita trusts us, but we are absolutely not the only one Roswita can trust, and arguably not even the best candidate for Markgraf given it's primarily a Stewardship/Diplomacy position, not a Magic/Learning/Intrigue one.
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I don't think this is true either? Roswita officially doesn't care about the state of Sylvania so long as it's no longer producing vampires and necromancers. There'll be a bit of realm management, but only insofar as it is supplementary to that goal.
 
picklepikkl said:
He was controlling the Witch Hunters and having them root out the Lahmians, not doing so personally
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...Huh? The quotes you just gave outright say he was spending time outside of the council meetings and general rulership on personal projects. Sure, those projects were "fuck with Sylvania more" but it generally goes to show that he has more time on his hands than just for ruling.
picklepikkl said:
And Roswita said she's doing basically nothing with Stirland:
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On the other hand, I admittedly might have read that differently than you. It seemed more like she complaining about having to split her attention than just not being able to focus on Stirland at all.
 
NavySeel said:
To be honest I'm still conflicted by the choice between Markgraf and Waystones.
But I just fine a certain ammount of the arguments against Markgraf kind disingenuous.

I feel like the fact that people are attacking it so hard is simply pushing me more into supporting it.
Unfortunately I have realized over the years I do have a kind of spiteful streak at times.

Honestly if people started talking up the Waystone option instead of tearing down the other one I favour I might not feel this way.
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i guess that the reason im getting so salty over this is that im seeing so many people say that there only choosing or voting for one of the top 3 because they dont want another option to win so it might be bleeding over a bit. I mean i personaly want Bodyguard to win so we can do a bit of everything while protecting the Royal family and Ranalds plan
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
but my point is that the focus, by word of Rose, is not nation-building or management, she is fine us dumping that part on someone else. (e.g a stwerd )

want is expected of the job is to head the Martial and Intage part of the project.
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Sure, but if we are employing a Steward for Sylvania, that's a half-AP. If we're employing a holy order, that's another half-AP. If we keep managing the EIC intel network for the sake of spies, that's another half-AP. We don't get things for free.
BoneyM said:
it costs one action to manage two organizations, to a maximum of six; the ultimate conclusion of this is having six subordinate branches of your demesne and three personal actions, or to put it another way, your default CK2 quest.
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Mathilde isn't going to personally manage the finances of Sylvania, that would be nuts. But she still needs to make sure that work gets done, and managing that costs AP. We don't get the AP back unless we permanently give up control.
 
Beyond my lack of enthusiasm for Yet Another Nation-building Quest, I think my strong dislike of the Markgraf option is rooted in two things: It's fundamentally not a Wizard Job and Mathilde's xenoaffinity.

It's a military governor position. Nothing about it couldn't be done by a capable general. Nothing about it demand our magical talent. Nothing about it lends itself to wizardly solutions. The answers here will always be diplomacy, infrastructure, and military action. We're wasted in this position. Mathilde is a wizard. She takes pride in being a wizard. She's only incidentally a general. Waystones, Loremaster, and Bodyguard all lend themselves to wizardly solutions; applying our unique talents and magical acumen to solve problems other people can't . Markgraf does not. It's fundamentally a military and political role. We're at our best as an agent. Personally, I feel that's when we shine. This just seems like a bizarre sideways career move and to some extent a downgrade. Our history and our arc is one of applying our eldritch skills and absurd luck to pulling miracles out of our hat on behalf of someone else. Not in sitting in a fortress and coordinating a prolonged, grinding reconquest or overseeing infrastructure projects. It just seems very out of theme for us to go from wandering troubleshooter to a desk job.

Then there's the xenoaffinity. Mathilde's whole life with us been one of alienation and separation from her fellow man. She's a wizard and grew up in that milieu, rarefied and distinct from general Imperial culture. She was placed in Stirland not by her own choice but by the conspiracy, and ever since she left, she's completely immersed herself in foreign cultures. She threw herself entirely into Belegar's expedition and never left. Vala-Azril-Ungol broadened her horizons. Halflings, spiders, dragons, and of course dwarves. We make jokes about the dwarf infection for a reason. Because Mathilde has assimilated into their culture and society in Eight Peaks. Her traits reflect this. Her interests reflect this. It's easier for her to understand and interact with dwarves or other cultures who respect her accomplishments even if they are cautious of her powers. That's okay, she too has a healthy respect for how it can go wrong. But Imperials by and large distrust wizards; look at her childhood and how it's affected her lack of affinity and commonality with the average citizen. Viewed from the outside, she's the Lady Magister (culture: wizard) who went native among the dwarves. The whole Mathilde Age thing and the Conclave announcement all thematically point towards a Lady Magister operating almost entirely outside the Empire because she feels somewhat alienated from it.

I really like the idea of Mathilde a foreigner in her own nominal country. So much opportunity for divided loyalties and great worldbuilding outside it and all sorts of things. I want to continue to operate among the dwarves because that arc is ascendant. It's thematically and tonally dissonant to take a job in the Empire for the Empire in that way. Markgraf or similar is just a bizarre dissonant leap sideways that doesn't sit right with me when considering this as a work of fiction as a whole, nor as something true to Mathilde's character and the worldly woman she has become as I see it.

All the recent pressure has been for Mathilde to be ever-deeper entwined into dwarven plot arcs, culture, and affairs, and the thread suddenly wants to drop that completely?
 
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inbred martian said:
for me anyway its less not being able to think that it will be made enjoyable in some respect but us passing up world changing or pivotal positions to play cleanup in Sylavania when other Wizards could easily do this job and call us in if needed. I mean i fully expect if its chosen in a dozen turns to hear about some important Karak falling or the Royal family being assassinated while we what? Clean up a dumpster fire of a province which we would be still doing in another dozen turns for the end product of a regular province of the empire being added to the Tax registry?
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This isn't something just any wizard can do. Roswita approached us, specifically, because she knows she can trust us with the power that comes with it and that we'll do the best we can.

And this type of argument is bugging me. If you're voting based on where you think Mathilde is most needed, vote for Spymaster of Wissenland. She was asked for specifically because she's the empire's foremost expert on Skaven. Nuln is where most of the empire's war machines are made and is second only to Altdorf in importance. If the usually brash and obstinate Elector Count is asking for help, it's probably a major issue.
 
I'm actually getting more into Markgraf as I consider it further. We'll be able to put those anti-necromancy bonuses from reading the liber mortis to good use! I was kind of resigned to those being a cool thing we never did anything with.

Mathilde's probably the premier anti-necromancy specialist available, and we'll be able to show off our chops here! No one else knows it's because we cheated, so they'll just be really impressed! It's a great fit for likes-to-show-off Mathilde.

Valarauko said:
It's thematically and tonally dissonant to take a job in the Empire for the Empire in that way. Markgraf or similar is just a bizarre dissonant leap sideways that doesn't sit right with me when considering this as a work of fiction as a whole, nor as something true to Mathilde's character and the worldly woman she has become as I see it.
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I disagreed with every part of your post, but especially this part. It is not at all "tonally dissonant" for Mathilde to take this job, and you are reading heavily into that single trait and ignoring, oh, the entire Liber Mortis reading that ties back into this, among other things.
 
Honestly, Markgraf has a lot of potential for turning the EIC back into a more stewardship focused interest for us instead of just being a spy network. We want somebody to manage the economy? Well guess who already has experience in doing that?
 
picklepikkl said:
Sure, but if we are employing a Steward for Sylvania, that's a half-AP. If we're employing a holy order, that's another half-AP. If we keep managing the EIC intel network for the sake of spies, that's another half-AP. We don't get things for free.

Mathilde isn't going to personally manage the finances of Sylvania, that would be nuts. But she still needs to make sure that work gets done, and managing that costs AP. We don't get the AP back unless we permanently give up control.
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But that argument can be said for the other jobs.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I dont see managing the waystone 'groups' as 'free' : they are very likely to be treated as 'subordinates/originations just like max and the EIC.

so: Half-AP for Elf mages, half-AP runesmiths, Half-AP for Imperial etc etc

if there is one thing that can be said to be written in stone: Boeny don't give free AP lunches.
 
So, points for Waystones:

We are the only person able to work on this as an intermediary with connections to various groups, and as a person with solid knowledge of the things.

Waystones also are able to power massive scale enchantments. This isn't only a "drain magic out of the world" thing, though that's another benefit. We know with the Empire's limited current understanding, Pan was able to use a Waystone to provide a solid power boost to her project. Currently the forces of chaos and dark magic users are the only ones really benefiting from this by using them as Dhar batteries. Turning them to our uses could let us and our allies erect lots of fun magical superweapons.

This also could be where some adventuring and politicing come in. Some waystones may need to be secured from various gribblies. Getting the various factions to work together on sharing knowledge, and possibly on how to use the knowledge brings in the politics.

We also would get to flex our own research outside of the waystones proper. Having a broad knowledge base of enchantment and spell crafting could be very useful in getting the maximum utility out of the stones.

Also, past an early point it is indeed possible to pass on the waystone project. Progress would be slowed if the project hit irreconcilable differences, but once the big hurdle of sharing information is past, then everyone would be able to move forward independently at a much higher rate than if the project never started.
 
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I don't want to nation build, and I'll be gone for a while.

[x] The Waystone Project
[x] Ranaldian High Priest of Kislev
[x] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
[x] Spymaster of Wissenland
 
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