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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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A_Somebody said:
Yes my comment isn't 100% accurate, but I was trying (and failing) to succinctly provide a clear example for why "Tee hee we can totally take care of that pesky Neferata with one or two dragons and some mages!" is an adsolutely stupid idea. One that the poster still thinks is somehow anything but complete suicide if their recent posting is any indication.
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I understand where you are coming from and I agree that Neferata is probably beyond us, but I disagree as to why. I don't think she would try and stop us at her fortress, as powerful as the enchantments and guards there are. That would be a straightforward, yet dangerous, fight where her years of manipulation would be less useful.

What would be a problem is the pawns she would send when she discovered that such an expedition was preparing to depart--she's had Lybaras besieged one hundred and thirty six times. Each of those invasions was through her sending an utterly disposable band of vampires out and having them assemble a massive army that would be very costly for us to fight. Having even a fraction of that thrown at something we care about should be avoided.
 
Darth. said:
None of that is argument in good faith.
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OK I obviously don't agree with all this and I'm not going to pour ash on my head, but I can see how it might come off as goal post shifting and appeal to the worst case scenario so let me first apologize for rushing down the rabbit hole of worst case scenarios and then reel back my arguments to their core.

I do not like court politics and I do not think it is a good use of our time. In working for Hedi in her dynastic quality we would naturally become attached to her perspective just like all the other employers we had and we might well end up sacrificing some of our principles on the altar of political expedience. This is bad enough without having to posit any further political pressure on her part

Hopefully this makes things clearer.
 
kingreaper said:
Deathfang and the Fire Dragons would get on like a house on fire: Massive property damage and multiple deaths.

He doesn't like wind-tied dragons one jot.
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Thanks for bringing that up! So, it could go like this:
1) we ask Cython to ask fire dragons to go somewhere else (outside of the Empire and Dwarven holds) - maybe go to the Neferata's mountain? :rofl:
2) if it doesn't work we have an option to ask Deathfang and Asarnil to get us rid of the fire dragons one way or another

I see a nice fat chance there to get another hold powering the dwarven network. And just imagine if fire dragons are convinced to move to Neferata's mountain. :rofl:
 
DragonParadox said:
OK I obviously don't agree with all this and I'm not going to pour ash on my head, but I can see how it might come off as goal post shifting and appeal to the worst case scenario so let me first apologize for rushing down the rabbit hole of worst case scenarios and then reel back my arguments to their core.

I do not like court politics and I do not think it is a good use of our time. In working for Hedi in her dynastic quality we would naturally become attached to her perspective just like all the other employers we had and we might well end up sacrificing some of our principles on the altar of political expedience. This is bad enough without having to posit any further political pressure on her part

Hopefully this makes things clearer.
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I disagree that we'd do this - we've pretty much always erred on the side of doing right by the "greater good" of the polities we serve (embezzlement to pay off a giant debt notwithstanding) - but this is at least a much more coherent argument and position, and not complete lunacy.
 
xpentakill said:
Kinda seems that way though. If you want kill skaven there is a better option right there. Most of the loremaster justification right seems to be "belegar best friendo" :confused:
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I mean, speaking as one of the loudest "belegar best friendo" advocates, I'm also voting for fighting skaven, and I'm also voting for killing vampires for Roswita. If L-a-L wins, I will definitely vote to support "Belegar lending us out to human polities to boost his cred, not just other dwarf polities." I am vast; I contain multitudes.

(It's actually a serious problem. I really need to lose weight. My knees aren't what they used to be.)
 
xpentakill said:
Kinda seems that way though. If you want kill skaven there is a better option right there. Most of the loremaster justification right seems to be "belegar best friendo" :confused:
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Um...No? Most of the argument is that literally no one else in the world can do the job because there is no other Wizard with a dawi-soul who is trusted by dwarven kings and retook not one but two Karaks. The core argument for why Mat should be away from the Empire when the Empire needs her is because no one else can do the other job.

To paraphrase the QM, the dwarven Learning advisor is a Loremaster, an Engeneer, or a Runelord. No Wizards, period. Except Mat.

Mat is literally a unique resource, as far as the Karaz Ankor is concerned.
For her references see:
-The Retaking of Karak Eight Peaks
- Thorek Ironbrow's grumbling approval of her "miracle juice that recharges Anvil Runes"
-20 000 living dwarves pulled from the realm of Slanesh.
-Oh, and let's not forget: Translating the Language of the Skaven! Something no dwarf has been able to do for millennia.

If you have a secret problem that needs a Wizard, after the war of the Beard, we finally have one that's somewhat reliable. So open up those vaults dawi, and let's see what Grudges we can strike out!
 
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DragonParadox said:
I do not like court politics and I do not think it is a good use of our time. In working for Hedi in her dynastic quality we would naturally become attached to her perspective just like all the other employers we had and we might well end up sacrificing some of our principles on the altar of political expedience. This is bad enough without having to posit any further political pressure on her part
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I'd like to say I have zero issue with your opinion on this. It is perfectly 100% valid. It is your other arguments that I mentioned earlier that made zero sense to me. So I called it out. I do not understand people's insistence on Waystones (beyond not wanting to wait to read about it) but that doesn't mean people can't vote for them. I'm sticking around for the quest either way.
 
DragonParadox said:
OK I obviously don't agree with all this and I'm not going to pour ash on my head, but I can see how it might come off as goal post shifting and appeal to the worst case scenario so let me first apologize for rushing down the rabbit hole of worst case scenarios and then reel back my arguments to their core.

I do not like court politics and I do not think it is a good use of our time. In working for Hedi in her dynastic quality we would naturally become attached to her perspective just like all the other employers we had and we might well end up sacrificing some of our principles on the altar of political expedience. This is bad enough without having to posit any further political pressure on her part

Hopefully this makes things clearer.
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Oh also I forgot in my earlier post, but I'd like to apologize for the hurr durr thing. I was frustrated but that was no excuse to be a condescending dick.
 
[X] The Waystone Project
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[X] Spymaster of Wissenland
[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
[X] Research Sabbatical
 
primemountain said:
Um...No? Most of the argument is that literally no one else in the world can do the job because there is no other Wizard with a dawi-soul who is trusted by dwarven kings and retook not one but two Karaks. The core argument for why Mat should be away from the Empire when the Empire needs her is because no one else can do the other job.

To paraphrase the QM, the dwarven Learning advisor is a Loremaster, an Engeneer, or a Runelord. No Wizards, period. Except Mat.

Mat is literally a unique resource, as far as the Karaz Ankor is concerned.
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Ok even if this a argument, when Mathilde stays as loremaster she will be stuck helping dwarf issues rather than help the Empire with the Skaven problem since according to your logic there is stuff only she can do to help the dwarfs out.
 
[X] The Waystone Project
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred

These all seem like they will lead to new and exciting situations. Full on rats or full on vampires both seem a bit much to me, but a light version of both in the form of Bodyguard doesn't sound too bad.

Loremaster-at-Large will lead to us meeting dwarves of other holds who I suspect are much more culturally diverse than you'd expect from looking at dwarves as a whole at first glance.

And Waystones are like, really really cool. This one might take quite a while to do, but well, that makes me even more in favor of it. It's Waystones! Looking at magical marvels of engineering for a living while meeting a new and novel culture sounds like a grand deal to me. Have I mentioned yet that I think that Waystones are really cool?
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I disagree that we'd do this - we've pretty much always erred on the side of doing right by the "greater good" of the polities we serve (embezzlement to pay off a giant debt notwithstanding) - but this is at least a much more coherent argument and position, and not complete lunacy.
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The trouble with that is if we put in the effort to educate Mandred then he would be a pretty good candidate yeah? So obviously getting him on the throne becomes a form of greater good. How do we stack it up against others?


Darth. said:
Oh also I forgot in my earlier post, but I'd like to apologize for the hurr durr thing. I was frustrated but that was no excuse to be a condescending dick.
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No problem. I was being snippy too looking back.
 
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xpentakill said:
Kinda seems that way though. If you want kill skaven there is a better option right there. Most of the loremaster justification right seems to be "belegar best friendo" :confused:
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I don't like Spymaster because I don't want to focus exclusively (well, mostly) on Skaven, and I don't especially want to go back to the Empire long-term. I like Loremaster because it lets us help Dwarfs with issues that they don't know how to fix, and which will often entail us being the best, and sometimes literally the only personal for the job (as they simply don't trust other Wizards except possibly our Gold friends).

Further, it will mean getting Dwarfs more used to the idea of cooperation with Wizards, and humans more generally. And if we keep succeeding, it might turn the Karaz Ankor-wide mood up enough that the Dwarf decline will significantly slow down or even reverse. I am rather fond of Egrimm 's idea of Mathilde Age.

At the same time, I am down to go work with non-Dwarfs if it helps them, or as a side project.
 
[x] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
Got a good thing going on here, and I'd like to further build on it.

[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
But variety is the spice of life, and there's always something refreshing about a new start. Not to mention meeting new allies and facing new challenges.

[X] Spymaster of Wissenland

[x] The Waystone Project​
 
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Rafin said:
If we are killing them as part of dispensing Dwarven justice, what do you want to do with their unhatched children? I guess raising them ourselves is icky and macabre. The most conventionally moral thing to do would be to send the eggs to Ulthuan, with the Imperial Zoo being a self-serving compromise.
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Those sound good, yeah. And to be honest, if we were just doing it as part of our job and stumbled across some I might see Mathilde taking responsibility, but my only reasons for even wanting to deal with the dragons would be making friends and getting an egg, so I don't trust my own motivations in that regard. I would always feel like I was justifying myself.


[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[x] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
 
Whoa just checked tallies and Border Princess is surprisingly unpopular. Same though lessened for Edgelord. While Loremaster is surprisingly popular. I was expecting Edgelord to beat out Loremaster tbh.
 
xpentakill said:
Ok even if this a argument, when Mathilde stays as loremaster she will be stuck helping dwarf issues rather than help the Empire with the Skaven problem since according to your logic there is stuff only she can do to help the dwarfs out.
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That's simply not true. Helping the Empire with Skaven is explicitly an option in the text for Loremaster-at-Large. Remember that there can be multiple reasons for supporting something, and voting for a particular reason doesn't invalidate all of the other reasons.
 
DragonParadox said:
The trouble with that is if we put in the effort to educate Mandred then he would be a pretty good candidate yeah? So obviously getting him on the throne becomes a form of greater good. How do we stack it up against others?
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If Manndred does become a genuinely unambiguously good candidate for being Emperor, one that looks to be preferable to the other candidates, then yes, we do what we can within the bounds of the Articles to make him an Emperor. That's just common sense. If there's a candidate who would do better as an Emperor than Manndred, then I imagine it'll come down to a vote.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not like court politics and I do not think it is a good use of our time.
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I'd like to once again emphasize that "court politics" will mostly be Mathilde going out to help Electors, usually by stabbing something that needs stabbing. I guess we also will need to be polite about the whole thing, and there might be a negotiation or two if we decide to tackle the Nordland/Middenland issue, but those are real problems that need solving and will save lives. Calling it all "court politics" is uncharitable, in my opinion.
 
A_Somebody said:
Uh not really? There's been plenty of contact between the Empire and lizardmen. It's all been universally negative.
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Marco Columbo was Tilean rather than Imperial, but he did manage to get some diplomacy across with the Lizardmen he came across. Even got a fair amount of treasure out of that.

Not that anything in the time since then has been terribly positive comparatively.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
If there's a candidate who would do better as an Emperor than Manndred, then I imagine it'll come down to a vote.
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Make Roswita Empress so we can win over the Reikguard like we won over the Greatswords and subvert them into helping us or at least looking the other way, when we sneak into the palace to prank her.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
If Manndred does become a genuinely unambiguously good candidate for being Emperor, one that looks to be preferable to the other candidates, then yes, we do what we can within the bounds of the Articles to make him an Emperor. That's just common sense. If there's a candidate who would do better as an Emperor than Manndred, then I imagine it'll come down to a vote.
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But what about bending the articles a bit? Say not a military defeat, but engineering a scandal for a rival EC? We are a Grey Magister, naturally inclined to look for and exploit edge cases. I don't really want to exercise that skill in dynastic politics.
 
DragonParadox said:
Say not a military defeat, but engineering a scandal for a rival EC?
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I highly doubt we'll be doing this for the simple reason that's the job of the Imperial Spymaster/Chancellor. We probably won't even know about it and it'll happen in the background when we're copped up in a tower researching or off on some adventure.

Edit: Also if said scandal is exposing the truth, that's not bending the articles at all.
 
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