Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[x] Approach the Kul camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[x] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[x] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
[x] Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak
[x] Attempt to intercept a Kurgan war-party en route to attack the Karag and the Beastmen
 
Because those hundreds of elite knights and battle-hardened dwarf rangers in their land-monitors are helpless without us, barely fit to hold Mathilde's big dick as she swaggers through
They're far from helpless, but it does constrain their options. Going back via alternate routes (e.g. the pack-ice) becomes much more difficult without Substance of Shadow (iirc), and the land-monitors are terribly risky to take along our previous path (given the previous dice rolls of each having a 1/3 chance of either falling or making it more difficult, with us having 5 monitors), even though they can probably forage along that path.
 
The reason leave isn't winning because a bunch of people are full of absurd levels of hubris and overconfidence and think sitting here in the fucking chaos wastes for another day or two trying to pointlessly figure this out is a good idea.

They are wrong.

The majority opinion is not always the correct choice.

The smart move would be to leave trying to sate this curiousity could very well get people killed, leaving minimizes the chance of further death.

The smart move would have been never having come to the expedition.

For the dwarves to never wasted any money or lives in a expedition that was most certainly doomed.

Yet here we are. And even if we write Dum off this expedition has been worth it.

And since we are here and we are never coming back. I would prefer leaving once we are sure we tried to do everything in our power to never regret what we do here.

So there you have it.
We can't claim that leaving is the smart thing. When the actual smart thing was never setting a foot in the chaos wastes in the first place.

Now that we are here might as well make it worth it.
 
So there you have it.
We can't claim that leaving is the smart thing. When the actual smart thing was never setting a foot in the chaos wastes in the first place.

Now that we are here might as well make it worth it.

Sure we can. It's the smart thing to do right now. There is no time machine salesman present to let us undo the past, though this being the Chaos Wastes I would not rule out a Lord of Change showing up with the offer shortly. :V
 
The smart move would have been never having come to the expedition.

For the dwarves to never wasted any money or lives in a expedition that was most certainly doomed.

Yet here we are. And even if we write Dum off this expedition has been worth it.

And since we are here and we are never coming back. I would prefer leaving once we are sure we tried to do everything in our power to never regret what we do here.

So there you have it.
We can't claim that leaving is the smart thing. When the actual smart thing was never setting a foot in the chaos wastes in the first place.

Now that we are here might as well make it worth it.

We already have done everything in our power.

doing anything else has to much fucking risk to it.

Give it up.
 
They're far from helpless, but it does constrain their options. Going back via alternate routes (e.g. the pack-ice) becomes much more difficult without Substance of Shadow (iirc), and the land-monitors are terribly risky to take along our previous path (given the previous dice rolls of each having a 1/3 chance of either falling or making it more difficult, with us having 5 monitors), even though they can probably forage along that path.
?

How does Substance of Shadow help navigate pack ice? It only works in the dark.
 
whose painting pictures? Between this update and the previous one Mathilde has seen both transformative magic and a cuddly beastman with her own eyes. Are you willing to condemn an arbitrarily large number of dwarves to those fates? because that is what is likely to happen if the dwarves of Dum get wrongly grudged based on appearances because we were too scared to do the thing we went into the chaos wastes to do.
I mean... what fate? Part of the problem of the Expedition is that we (or the Empire, or the Karaz Ankor) have no way to practically affect anything about the state of Karag Dum over the long term. The difficulties involved in getting here, being this deep in the Wastes, etc, means that even something like a grudge on them has... exactly 0 practical impact on them (and morale-wise, they already believe that the rest of the Karaz Ankor wouldn't accept them [taking Borek's reaction as a representative sample]).
Edit to avoid clogging the thread:
?

How does Substance of Shadow help navigate pack ice? It only works in the dark.
I meant for preserving the cows (for longevity of food stores). Seems to work in any cast shadow.
 
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I will admit, much as I think we need to know what's going on in there I really don't like the "Send in a volunteer first" options.

"Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make" is not exactly a heroic character statement. If we think something needs to be done (and I do), then we need to be willing to gamble our own chips, not those of our allies.

Are you impling a 25 stars general isn't heroic?

 
[X] Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak
[X] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak with magic
[X] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[X] Ask for a volunteer to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with


This seems like the best shot at getting any real answers in the short time frame they have, and Mathilde has the skills and the experience to get something out of this no matter how it plays out.
 
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Sure we can. It's the smart thing to do right now. There is no time machine salesman present to let us undo the past, though this being the Chaos Wastes I would not rule out a Lord of Change showing up with the offer shortly. :V

What prove do you have that this is the smart option an not just the easy one?

If this is a ticking time bomb defusing it now and not letting it blow later is the smart thing.

Unless you are secretly a Time traveler or the QM you don't have proof. Only opinions
We already have done everything in our power.

doing anything else has to much fucking risk to it.

Give it up.
I sure as hell know Mathilde hasn't tried all she can.
 
I will admit, much as I think we need to know what's going on in there I really don't like the "Send in a volunteer first" options.

"Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make" is not exactly a heroic character statement. If we think something needs to be done (and I do), then we need to be willing to gamble our own chips, not those of our allies.

Mathilde has done a lot of not-exactly-heroic things in her time. Like torture, or assassination (some of them at least - talking "Lahmian pawns," not "Orc Shamans"). She's a grey wizard & worked as a Spymaster. She's no stranger to doing unpleasant things for what she views as the greater good.
We already have done everything in our power.

doing anything else has to much fucking risk to it.

Give it up.

Please maybe chill?
 
Yeah, ugh no. Anything else we may do risks Mathilde and transitively everyone else.

[X] Leave

We're gonna ventilate Kragg for some secrets.
 
[x] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
Seems like a good option. Someone might come up to us to talk, we can observe any battles that occur, we can perform our final experiments and Mathilde can become more familiar with the divine energy being used so that she can recognize it later.

Since we don't seem to be in danger here this seems to be an option that's worth the risk. The primary likely danger being the nature of the Chaos Wastes rather than active enemy interference from what we've observed so far. This becomes even safer if we're ready to leave at a moment's notice and/or make some distance from Karag Dum.

I definitely want to see if the disintegrating effect has any effect on magic (maybe back off a bit put a minor enchantment on something and drop it in). Also toss some random stuff into the area of effect and so what occurs. Basically we should definitely stick around long enough to become more familiar with the divine energy and perform some tests but anything else seems like it's probably too risky for the possible reward.


Other thoughts:

My guess is Karag Dum is draining magic and using it to spread their radius of fuck you Chaos while using beastmen as a meat-shield buffer to really drive the screws in since they're using Chaos resources to screw over Chaos.

If we do talk to any of the tribes we should buy some animals to perform some testing with.

Sneaking around and spying on the other tribes may be preferable to risking talking to them. If nothing else it would likely be good practice for our later plan to steal an artifact. But that's only worth it if we know it's safe to cast magic since otherwise it would be hard to sneak around.


Edit:
[X] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them

After some thought approaching the Kvellige camp probably isn't as dangerous as one would think on first thought. Admittedly we don't want to use magic in case there's an anti-magic field of some sort around but it's not like we have to just walk straight into their camp with nothing like a fool.

I'd expect we'll probably grab some demigryph knights as an escort (and a ride) and simply stand around nearby expressing a willingness for diplomacy and hope they send someone willing to talk. If they move to attack then we simply retreat.
 
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Okay, so, so the "They're trying to turn it into a Herdstone" theory has probably been brought up before. But I'ma bring it up again anyway. Because maybe Morghur is just taking decades to a century plus, to try to corrupt the biggest Waystone ever. One bigger than anything found in the Empire's forests. In which case, we would probably need to take action, to prevent a Beastmen demigod from corrupting the biggest damn waystone ever. (On the other hand, Borek probably would have reacted differently if things were really bad. He also would have told us to tell the Karaz Ankor to, like, cut off the waystone power... oh yeah, the Waystone power. It was still pure when going to Vlag. Huh.)
"You know what Herdstones are?" Lord Magister Luuk says after you enter the tower, not looking up from the battered kettle he was patiently watching.

"Gathering points for the Beastmen," you say. They'd come up a time or two in Regimand's travels.

"They're also the complete opposite of Waystones, which scares the shit out of anyone with sense." He scratches at his shoulder, where the angry red of a new scar is visible under his leathers. "If you can interrupt them while they're setting one up, and drag the thing away before they summon reinforcements, you've got a menhir attuned to Ghur but not yet tainted by their rituals. It was a stroke of luck to find one just as you asked for this."
Doesn't quite fit, because Morghur was dancing around like that was his herdstone already, as if the thing was already sacred to him. While the mountain looked totally normal, rather than a corrupted mess but... I dunno. Maybe the reason that Morghur isn't mutating things left, right, and center... is because his aura is being focused on the waystone at Karag Dum? Same for the way Dhar isn't pooling everywhere and is a bit lacking actually; it's because it's being concentrated on the mountain-sized waystone?

... No, no that doesn't quite make sense... First of all, it feels like if the Dhar were being used to corrupt the mountain waystone, we'd probably have noticed and noted it, right? Even from the distance away.

Secondly though...
With a tiny fizzle of Divine energy, a tiny piece of rock disappears from the lip of the crater, replaced by a few grains of sand that tumble down to join the rest of the desert.
... BoneyM said that this wasn't Chaos God energy. It was some divine energy. So... yeah. I don't think this is right.

I guess, despite bringing the "turning it into a Herdstone?" possibility up, I have to conclude that I think it's wrong.

EDIT: Also, the Vlag waystone power was pure. So... If anything, even if this nightmare theory were true, it would be more likely to be the case that the Beastmen are futilely doing this; that Karag Dum is converting the Winds channeled their way into energy, and burning away any Dhar. Nevermind then, I guess.

============

I kinda wish we could talk to the Kurgans safely though. It would let us know if Morghur still transforms people into Chaos Spawn, if casting magic near him is still dangerous. And so on. The thing is, maybe if we camp and watch for a day or two, we can see if any war-parties attack the mountain and what happens to them?

[ ] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[ ] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day

Wondering over voting for both of these. For now, will just keep with the "fortify for a day" vote.

We can just wait a day first. And then, next we make contact with the Kurgans -- the Kvellige probably.

Hopefully the day-long wait will reveal something to us though. Or, heck, maybe the Kurgans will send a messenger to us.

I'm going to go back to sleep now.
 
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So while I dislike the 'Leave' option, at least that's decisive. What are people expecting to accomplish with the 'Stay and fortify' option?
 
As far as I can see the notion that we have to keep trying things seems to me made to some extent of the sunk cost fallacy (we are here therefore we must get some answers that are worth everything we have already sacrificed) as well as a sort of protagonist syndrome (We are the hero therefore we must do hero things and get a climax).

I'm not accusing anyone of arguing in bad faith I get the urge to obtain answers I just don't think they are worth the horrific risks not just to Mathilde but everyone with her.
 
We already have done everything in our power.

doing anything else has to much fucking risk to it.

Give it up.
really? I see a whole lot of options that aren't sitting on our hands, and last time I checked Mathilde was at least capable of speech, unless you are positing that we turned into a chaos spawn several updates ago and are simply too insane to have realized it yet. BTW, BOLD ALL CAPS and italics do not make your argument more compelling

I mean... what fate? Part of the problem of the Expedition is that we (or the Empire, or the Karaz Ankor) have no way to practically affect anything about the state of Karag Dum over the long term. The difficulties involved in getting here, being this deep in the Wastes, etc, means that even something like a grudge on them has... exactly 0 practical impact on them (and morale-wise, they already believe that the rest of the Karaz Ankor wouldn't accept them [taking Borek's reaction as a representative sample]).
Edit to avoid clogging the thread:

I meant for preserving the cows (for longevity of food stores). Seems to work in any cast shadow.
The fate I was referring to was moulder pit or chaos dwarf sacrifice, as noted in the post I quoted.
practically, no. But dwarves are not very practical about their grudges. If Dum has a grudge declared upon them, then the only way the dwarves will stop pursuing vengence is actually marching a massive army up here for decades to siege it or there being no more dwarves. Being able to clear up matter might avoid them having a grudge declared on them, which is why I advocate doing literally anything except running away or sitting on our hands for a day and then running away.
Yeah, ugh no. Anything else we may do risks Mathilde and transitively everyone else.

[X] Leave

We're gonna ventilate Kragg for some secrets.
Kragg is not going to tell us any secrets, and there's no way he or anyone else down south knows what is going on here anyway. If we want to know what is going on, and inform the Karaz ankor of what is going on, then we need to find out what's going on.
 
If they filled their larders and gorged their animals at the edge of Kurgan lands, they'd have two weeks of food plus full bellies to go three weeks of distance. 2/3 rations or going the last week without food would be a really bad time, but it's not an automatic death sentence.
Something I've been thinking about. Does meat really go bad that quickly, especially this far north? Meaning, if worst came to worst and Mathilde's spellcasting abilities were unavailable for any reason, would it be possible for the Expedition to replace Mockery of Death with regular actual death for the cows and just stack their bodies on the steam tanks that way? I mean, I doubt the humans or even the famously hardy dwarves would be all that stoked to eat week-old meat or whatever, but AFAIK obligate carnivores like wolves tend to have fairly strong stomachs for this kind of thing - they're not necessarily above eating some carrion in the wild. And the carnivorous mounts are a huge percentage of the expedition's food requirements IIRC. I did some quick google-fu and this page from the International Wolf Center, which is apparently a thing, says:
Gray wolves prey primarily on [things made of meat], and they will consume carrion if no fresh meat is available. [...] If prey is abundant, wolves may not consume an entire carcass, or they may leave entire carcasses without eating. This is called "surplus killing" and seems inconsistent with the wolves' habit of killing because they are hungry. Surplus killing seems to occur when prey are vulnerable and easy to catch – in winter, for instance, when there is deep snow. Since wolves are programmed to kill when possible, they may simply be taking advantage of unusual situations when wild prey are relatively easy to catch. They may return later to feed on an unconsumed carcass, or they may leave it to a host of scavengers. Additionally, they may cache food and dig it up at a later time. [...] Wolves often rely on food they have cached after a successful hunt in order to see them through lean times.
Taken mostly from the material under "What do wolves eat?" and the end snippet is from "How much do wolves eat?". Unfortunately, it seems there is no International Demigryph Center, or I'd include some material from them as well.

Related, have we tried to estimate the feasibility of Ljiljana producing ice for purposes of janky field refridgeration in concert with carrying dead cows on the steam wagons? Can we, if not?
 
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