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There is a way to help them, but before that we have to investigate, see if they are beyond help,
@BoneyM
Am I correct in the thought that even if they have enslaved/mindcontrolled/collared Morghur the reaction of the Karaz Ankor and the Empire would still be kill it with fire and those that went so close to Chaos too?
As far as Mathilde believes, of course.
Most likely, yes. The precedent for Dwarves and minor Chaos deities isn't exactly fantastic.
Even in the best case with Cor-Dum enslaved and them not making a pact this is the precedent you intend to argue against.
Hashut and the Dawi-Zharr.

We won't win that argument with the Knight Orders, let alone the Dwarves. Our Diplomacy isn't near good enough for that.
 
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Only beyond that line if he's still chaotic; if not, it's exactly like Apparition/Djinn/etc.

Line between demons and apparitions is mostly there for public consumption and to ward off chaos temptation, it's not a real thing. All's warp entities which people are working with, question's only who's holding the leash, so if Dawi are holding the leash it's apparition and all's well.
It's a legal definition that the gold college made us swear not to have learnt from them.
Because nobody wants to make it public.
We start arguing about daemons and apparitions here, in front of knights and dwarves, instead of magister lords, and it is not going to go well for us.
 
I'll vote for any plan that produces the largest block of text. It's high time we made the voting software have a heart attack.
 
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Or make it worse.
To him, to us, to the expedition.
Time finding answers is time not getting to safety, and right now we are not safe.
And, again, trying to be friendly to Morghur and his allies is unlikely to be good for us.
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Please explain your plan to help them, and also include your plant to convince the two religious knightly orders, the dwarves who take propriety very seriously, and the wizards sworn to uphold the articles of magic, to not kill us for being a traitor.


Its not possible to help without knowing what is going on, which Borek overestimated Mathilde's omniscience, we convince the knightly orders with logic, proof and trust, so far Mathilde has proven herself as a leader. She rescued Karag Vlag, led the expedition through the road, negotiated food, and more. So trust is not a issue as long as Mathilde proves herself uses logic, communicates her plans and reasons for doing things properly.

She is also a war hero, save hundreds of dwarves, plays a crucial role in Karag 8 peaks, and more plus the protector coin is active, so at wore, they assume that she is idealistic.
 
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Looks like the vote is almost settled huh.
Adhoc vote count started by GrimTheMad on Jan 8, 2021 at 12:02 PM, finished with 2163 posts and 233 votes.


There's a pretty big lead, but this thread has been known to swing hard.

(With regards to the Apparition thing- while I agree with the general principle of 'whatever Dum has done doesn't necessarily mean they're evil and must be purged', I will say there's a rather large difference of degree between binding a Wisdom's Asp or whatever and binding literally Morghur, King of the Beastmen- even if you argue that its not a difference of kind.)
 
Alright, new addition to the Theory Vote pool. Something that Mathilde knows that really needs to be communicated

[X] THEORY: Based on Guild and Dwarf secrets we can tell that Karag Dum is slowing the spread of the Chaos Wastes.

Waystones absorb magic, making the world more real and less like the poles. The official line is that they're all elven things that route it into a great vortex for safe disposal. We know that the energy can actually be put to use, and that Dwarves have their own network, but there's no reason to doubt that they increase the firmness of reality and hold back the wastes.

[X] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] Action: Pray for guidance. In this realm reality is more malleable, perhaps our gods will be able to reach us more easily here.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[x] Action: Look for the source of the desert.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] ACTION: Demand the Runesmith in the Morghur Fursuit presents Borek so you can scream at him for not mentioning he was taking you to the Capital of Dwarven Illusion Craft. You would have brought more ink and paper.
[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[x] ACTION: Project a message in the air with magic asking for a Parley.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum converted their Rune of Valaya into a Rune of Valaya's Vengeance, and used it to burn away all of the surrounding Dhar, causing a cataclysmic explosion and presumably wiping out whatever threat they were facing. But having lost their Rune of Valaya, they no longer had a defence against the Winds of Chaos, and they knew it. They could not simply die, for they had a critical duty to protect their hold, for reasons that are secrets of my Guild and Karak Eight Peaks, and so they decided that if they could not survive to defend it as Dwarves they would no longer be Dwarves. They found a way for dwarves to become beastmen, and know that they must defend their Karak as though it were their herdstone. Pity them.
[x] THEORY: Morghur has been linked to Karag Dum's waystone, which is acting as a psudo-herdstone that is burning away Dhar instead of creating it. Morghur is possibly cleansed of Dhar, and sees dwarfs of Karag Dum as family. The waystone may have been the cause of the weird geography via Geomancy, and might be weaponized. Based on Boreks last words, this was a longstanding contingency plan held by the dwarfs of Karag Dum. He is ashamed because it's a desecration of one of the greatest relics of the Ancestor Gods, as well as binding the fate of Karag Dum to a Beastmen Demi-God.
 
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It's a legal definition that the gold college made us swear not to have learnt from them.
Because nobody wants to make it public.
We start arguing about daemons and apparitions here, in front of knights and dwarves, instead of magister lords, and it is not going to go well for us.
Yeah, but civvies are a different thing, we are Lady Magister, we can bullshit them well enough. Tell them it's not actually a demon, whatever whatever.

They won't make friendsies and hug each other, but as long as they treat it as, say, Wood Elf treants or Arabyan Djinns - which are Totally Not Warp Entities I Swear (they are but they are useful so everyone pretends it's different lol) - it's good enough for me, and , I suspect by lack of crusades of assassinations on Araby, good enough for Grey Order to not be sticks in the mud about it.
 
I think we are voting to turn back.
But honestly i can't be sure, we might be voting to build a moonrocket for all i know.
 
We have Reputation: Yes with basically everyone. It's unlikely trying to figure out this mess will get us in trouble, because it's so surreal that any possibility we put forth will be acceptable.

If people are worried about our reputation, consider how the Grey College would react if we told them we passed up the chance to do basic forward info-recon while we were here.

Edit: 37 vote lead of Gain Info over Turn Back.
 
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Even if we're not planning to foster any sort of positive relationship with Karag Dum, we still need to make some effort to know if this is gonna be a problem that's gonna come barreling down south in the foreseeable future.
 
Yeah, but civvies are a different thing, we are Lady Magister, we can bullshit them well enough. Tell them it's not actually a demon, whatever whatever.

They won't make friendsies and hug each other, but as long as they treat it as, say, Wood Elf treants or Arabyan Djinns - which are Totally Not Warp Entities I Swear (they are but they are useful so everyone pretends it's different lol) - it's good enough for me, and , I suspect by lack of crusades of assassinations on Araby, good enough for Grey Order to not be sticks in the mud about it.
Morghul, totes not a daemon.
I am doubtful of our powers of persuasion, also, they will talk once we leave, to their superriors, to their masters, to their priests, we start arguind that binding Morghul, or even a fake Morghul, is fine, and it is not going to go well.
 
I think we are voting to turn back.
But honestly i can't be sure, we might be voting to build a moonrocket for all i know.
Nope, we'll offer both turning back and investigating more as options.
Next update is the one we get to argue civilly whether to turn back or try to investigate (and how much we want to risk doing so).
 
I think we are voting to turn back.
But honestly i can't be sure, we might be voting to build a moonrocket for all i know.
We're voting to present Turn Back as one of the options. We're only presenting options at this point for both theory and action: the next update will probably have the real vote for "what do we do next, based on the reactions of various council members to various things on the table."
 
Even in the best case with Cor-Dum enslaved and them not making a pact this is the precedent you intend to argue against.
Hashut and the Dawi-Zharr.

We won't win that argument with the Knight Orders, let alone the Dwarves. Our Diplomacy isn't near good enough for that.
That's not the best case though, that's the worst case that makes any sense, and it doesn't explain the headpat or the uncorrupted ground. There's also the Runelord in a fursuit idea, and the purification idea
 
Staying in the Chaos Wastes risks lives, fundamentally. Leaving aside the passive dhar taint that everybody besides us is accumulating, some people want to contact the Kurgan, who have at least a 1 on a 1d6 of turning hostile immediately, and a 5 or 6 (looking for alliances) would undoubtedly result in hostilities either against the Beastmen or when we don't attack the beastmen. The knights also stopped scouting because of the passive environmental dangers, and looking around to find clues sounds an awfully lot like scouting.
We're looking at spending at least another week in the chaos wastes regardless. If we back off a bit and take a look around with a telescope and poke at some bones that's a pretty marginal risk to potentially cut down the possibilities quite a lot. Higher risks can also be taken if they're worth it.

It'd be pretty tragic for example if we assume Karag Dum is completely corrupted and fail to receive a message because we immediately left instead of spending a few hours investigating. We don't even need to stay in the same place, we can start making distance away from Karag Dum immediately while we have people gather information and be close enough to receive messages.
Or make it worse.
To him, to us, to the expedition.
Time finding answers is time not getting to safety, and right now we are not safe.
And, again, trying to be friendly to Morghur and his allies is unlikely to be good for us.
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It's pretty hard to get worse than the impression I'm getting of has fully joined Chaos and is now getting headpats from captain mutation. Finding out for example that it's not really Morghur would likely heavily alleviate the perceived level of grudge that needs to be leveled against Borek.
 
That's not the best case though, that's the worst case that makes any sense, and it doesn't explain the headpat or the uncorrupted ground. There's also the Runelord in a fursuit idea, and the purification idea
Of course it does.
Headpat is explained by the binding working via the vector of adjusting his perceptions so he sees Borek as part of his Beast Heard.
Like his perceptions are already altered to see the Karak as his Herdstone, which it definitely isn't.

Lack of corruption is explained by Rune of Valaya. We got one on our Belt.
 
That's not the best case though, that's the worst case that makes any sense, and it doesn't explain the headpat or the uncorrupted ground. There's also the Runelord in a fursuit idea, and the purification idea
Most people would react to the idea that we saw something that might be Morghur but we think it is actually a disguised Runelord with suspicion.
 
So your saying its ok to abandon them just because they are far away to be allies or enemies, withouth verifying their status, just because its more convenient to run away.

What about the survivors that might be expecting help to arrive. not checking on them is doing a subpar job in reporting to Belegar, plus if they need help then we need the whole story to tell to Belegar and other high ranking dwarfs
Borek is checking on them and telling them that they can finally confirm what they already knew for who knows how long. Namely that they sacrificed everything, including allegiance, membership and support of the Karaz Ankor when they enacted this scheme, regardless of their motives. I mean seriously, these are Dwarves. If what they did saved their race there's a bigger chance of mass Slayer Oaths than of an organized rescue and support mission.

Honestly, if Borek thought there was a chance of acceptance and eventual rescue through subterfuge then he'd have killed himself rather than cuddling with an apparent Chaos creature.
 
But the only precedent that exists for this is the Dawi-Zharr and Hashut.
And that's what everyone will think about first when we tell them.
That's a steep hill to die on.
Maybe that's what most people will think of, but Belegar won't. He trusts Mathilde, if she says that Karag Dum found a non-Chaos way to get the assistance of Morghur, he will believe her.

Meanwhile, Thorek might personally believe that this is a Dawi-Zharr like situation, but it is very much in his best interest to play ball here. Not only is he still trying to mend his reputation with Belegar after the Die Well "accident", he also just had one of his kin rescued singlehandedly by Mathilde herself. And, though Mathilde doesn't know this yet, just had her officially declared a Dawi soul in a human body and decreed that they ought to seek vengeance for her sake. Publicly going against Belegar and Mathilde on such a matter would be counteractive to everything he cares for very limited gain. Especially since the Waystone connection that was just restored proves that for whatever chaos'y stuff Dum is supposedly doing, it hasn't reached their Waystone.

And if the Empire think that Karag Dum has fallen to Chaos, what are they gonna do about it? If they openly move against Mathilde's claim, they'll be accusing the dwarves of Karaz Ankor to be harbouring/protecting Chaos worshippers. While they need Dawi protection to break the Marienburg blocade. And if they pull something against Mathilde directly, they better have some very solid evidence considering that she's essentially Belegar's right hand woman at this point. From a geopolitical point of view it would be ridiculous.

Individual factions will absolutely grumble at this, but the big players won't and the smaller pieces tend to follow their lead. Like, the only thing I can see go wrong is Ulthuan using this as a reason to restart the War of Vengeance, and I only think of that because I way back when came up with a baseless theory that an Elgi was ultimately behind the Okral bombing.
 
Lack of corruption is explained by Rune of Valaya. We got one on our Belt.
A Supercharged Rune of Valaya would explain Borek not getting corrupted. The Karag-scale Rune of Valaya explains Karag Dum not getting corrupted. It doesn't explain the ground beneath Morghur's feet not getting corrupted. It'd have to be expanded to explain that.

Admittedly that's not impossible, but it is a significant set of extra steps required.
 
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Borek is checking on them and telling them that they can finally confirm what they already knew for who knows how long. Namely that they sacrificed everything, including allegiance, membership and support of the Karaz Ankor when they enacted this scheme, regardless of their motives. I mean seriously, these are Dwarves. If what they did saved their race there's a bigger chance of mass Slayer Oaths than of an organized rescue and support mission.

Honestly, if Borek thought there was a chance of acceptance and eventual rescue through subterfuge then he'd have killed himself rather than cuddling with an apparent Chaos creature.


Too bad Borek thinks Mathilde, is omniscient and knows what he is talking about in the first place, and knows what he wanted her to tell everyone.
 
A Supercharged Rune of Valaya would explain Borek not getting corrupted. The Karag-scale Rune of Valaya explains Karag Dum not getting corrupted. It doesn't explain the ground beneath Morghur's feet not getting corrupted. It'd have to be expanded to explain that.

Admittedly that's not impossible, but it is a significant set of extra steps required.
It is the Karak of the kickflip Runemasters.
 
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