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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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lostAncilla said:
It's really super weird that I'm both dismayed and a little glad this happened.

There's a reason we prepared so much for this and having "rocks fall, people die" occur highlights the absurd risk of this journey. The utter BS of the rolls during the last major fight set the stage for something really random occurring and having that happen now instead of later is weirdly relieving - even if it really doesn't affect the chances of bad things happening later as well.
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I hate to be that guy but the dice have no memory. We are just as likely to roll straight 1s and we are just as likely to roll straight 6s and everything in between.

ninjafish said:
Eh on the other hand... remember we are a dwarf now.

So basically we are living breathing irrefutable proof that the conservatives are wrong.

We aren't just radical, we're so radical that we journeyed deep into the Conservative wastes to kill all the conservative daemons, then we returned, having become incarnate of the Kickflip Wind to initiate the RADICALTIDE!!!
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We are living breathing proof did the conservatives were wrong about magic, arguably that they were wrong about not trusting outsiders. We are not proof that conservative engineers were wrong about the steam wagons or the folly of making yourself clanless etc...
 
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DragonParadox said:
It's actually worse than that. He died on the steam wagon he made, he died when it failed. To the dwarfs it's not going to look like a hero's death, though most aren't going to say it. Goreck's death is going to look like just another radical engineer dying doing radical things, a cautionary tale, one footnote among thousands, one more confirmation that the conservatives were right.
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The mothership was a newer variant that came about as a result of improvisation due to suddenly having a dragon along and a differing logistics trail to deal with. If the 5 regular steam-wagons come back successful and the one modified one doesn't then it's pretty suggestive of where the line between a newfangled but necessary tool and a radical innovation doomed to failure will end up being drawn.

Gotrek might get blamed for going too far with the idea too fast, but he'd absolutely get his fair share of the credit for the successful bits - especially if there's members of the expedition being lauded for success who might take umbrage at their fallen comrade being shrifted.
 
DragonParadox said:
The landslide was part of the train, the danger was at least in theory predictable. More importantly there's no reason to give Gortek the benefit of the doubt, no clan or guild to argue for him and it suits the narrative of elder engineers to have him fail to his own hubris. Success needs no excuses but failure is going to get picked apart like a carcass by vultures.
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... But that depends heavily on whether the expedition itself is a success or a failure, doesn't it?

If the expedition rescues one completely lost Karak and scouts out (or rescues or something) a second Karak then that's a huge, huge success.

They would be at risk of mocking a Dwarf who died in the middle of seeing accomplishing an incredible deed.

Any downplaying and mockery of "His hubris got him killed" is going to be coming against people going "Screw you guys, his contribution saw one Karak rescued out of the Aethyr, and one scouted and aided!"

Tutting at failure is one thing. Tutting and downplaying success is a risk, however.

And they'd be taking the risk of all the people who are pleased with what the expedition accomplished being upset with them for their reactions to it.

... Plus. Gotrek's steam-wagons did do what the Longbeard's 4-wheeled designs couldn't; climb a freaking slope.

The Longbeards wouldn't even have been able to get any of their designs as far as Gotrek did his steam-wagon designs.
 
DragonParadox said:
I hate to be that guy but the dice have no memory. We are just as likely to roll straight 1s and we are just as likely to roll straight 6s and everything in between.
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And it just so happens that you didn't need to be that guy:
lostAncilla said:
even if it really doesn't affect the chances of bad things happening later as well.
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He knows.

The gambler's fallacy doesn't stop feeling right just because you know it's bullshit, you know?
 
The argument seems to be entirely focused on, if pressing on or going back is the best course of action, but that isn't our desicion to make, Borek is in command of the expedition. We just determine the position Mathilde will advocate for. If I am not completely mistaken about Borek's personality he won't be deterred by the loss of one of the wagons, so the expedition will press on regardless what we might vote for (unless we roll a nat100 on a persuation roll). The only thing we can influence is, if we press on united or cause a potentially catastrophic rift within the expedition, when we are about to enter the final and most dangerous part of our journey.
 
Ouf I'm not sure what's best here. As noted, the food situation isn't great even if we turn back, turning back would mean 2 weeks worth of food over 3 weeks worth of journey when we've cleared out the primary trading hub really recently. Ahead is risk, but also possible Dolgan supplies along with giving the Chaos Dwarf town time to restock. Of course heading back might mean it'd be easier for the mounted troops to peal off and go hunting, but isnt most of the way back pure dessert?
 
Andres110 said:
Even if the offer didn't apply, we could just ask the dude to extend the offer. Sometimes simply asking for something gets you what you want. Don't need to play rules lawyer or do a favour or lie.
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Will this start a precedent of Belegar offering clanless people or family of clanless people a place and a seat? The offer is made to Gotrek due to the dude's skill and knowledge of secret sause engineering. Without it, its just another family amongs many who got their dad killed.

Not being cruel here, but the reason we shed so much sad to Gotrek is because of 'future that could have been'.
The same future where Belegar's expedition is nearly wiped out and Kazrik nailed to a throne.
 
DXCS said:
The argument seems to be entirely focused on, if pressing on or going back is the best course of action, but that isn't our desicion to make, Borek is in command of the expedition. We just determine the position Mathilde will advocate for. If I am not completely mistaken about Borek's personality he won't be deterred by the loss of one of the wagons, so the expedition will press on regardless what we might vote for (unless we roll a nat100 on a persuation roll). The only thing we can influence is, if we press on united or cause a potentially catastrophic rift within the expedition, when we are about to enter the final and most dangerous part of our journey.
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We have enough clout that we could probably just force maters in spite of Borek:
  1. The knights are more likely to listen to us than him because of worries for their beasts
  2. The wizards are ours
  3. We are the only one the local dragon rider considers a person rather than just a source of revenue
  4. Snori is happy we got Vlacg back
 
Ok, Gotrek is dead, and making it the full round trip looks a lot more dicey now.
What if there is another way to fulfill the mission of the expedition to check on Karak Dum?

What if Matilde goes forward at full speed to check and see if Karak Dum is savable? Can she bring a passenger on her shadowsteed? (I think the Expedition leader will likely become a slayer and walk the rest of the way if he does not verify Karak Dum's state with his own eyes)

Is Matilde traveling through the Chaos wastes by herself too much danger?

It would be extremely convenient to have a better idea of what we might find when we get to Karak Dum.
 
HanChenYou said:
Ok, Gotrek is dead, and making it the full round trip looks a lot more dicey now.
What if there is another way to fulfill the mission of the expedition to check on Karak Dum?

What if Matilde goes forward at full speed to check and see if Karak Dum is savable? Can she bring a passenger on her shadowsteed? (I think the Expedition leader will likely become a slayer and walk the rest of the way if he does not verify Karak Dum's state with his own eyes)

Is Matilde traveling through the Chaos wastes by herself too much danger?

It would be extremely convenient to have a better idea of what we might find when we get to Karak Dum.
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That's dangerously close to hubris IMO.
 
If the goal is only to see and observe, a soup up gyrocopter making multiple trip to make a secret supply base, then refuel from there, while carying us and two ranger is enough.
In fact with chaos dwarf and mercs , the supply problem might be overlooked.


But the goal is to also to either rescue or reinforce Dum.
If we manage to get there with or without further losses, i think the focus on the quest will be on us helping to stabilize Karak Dum before returning.
 
DragonParadox said:
We have enough clout that we could probably just force mattress in spite of Borek:
  1. The knights are more likely to listen to us than him because of worries for their beasts
  2. The wizards are ours
  3. We are the only one the local dragon rider considers a person rather than just a source of revenue
  4. Snori is happy we got Vlacg back
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This is exactly what I mean with causing a cathastrophic rift, even if Snorri want's to go back Borek's postion isn't entriely unreasonable and he is in charge. We are on a military expedition, if Snorri disobeys his superior he will be executed on his return, unless dwarfs are unusually lenient with mutineers. While we could threaten to go back with the knights (massive supply issues here), the wizard's would need a wagon (not everyone has a shadowsteed) and they are under the authority of Borek. Unless we commit an act of unspeakable betrayal and force the matter by violence, we aren't in a good position to pressure Borek. Especially because while we are nominally in charge of Asarnil, his contract is with the dwarfs (and Asarnil is unlikely be break a contract). This is not a democracy where we debate and the one with the best argument wins, when we volunteered for this mission we accepted that we would be under Borek's command.
 
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[x] Press on

Fulfilling the dreams of dead campaign leaders seems like it might start to become a horrid routine. Good thing Belegar is still alive eh?
 
DXCS said:
This is exactly what I mean with causing a cathastrophic rift, even if Snorri want's to go back Borek's postion isn't entriely unreasonable and he is in charge. We are on a military expedition, if Snorri disobeys his superior he will be executed on his return, unless dwarfs are unusually lenient with mutineers. While we could threaten to go back with the knights (massive supply issues here), the wizard's would need a wagon (not everyone has a shadowsteed) and they are under the authority of Borek. Unless we commit an act of unspeakable betrayal and force the matter by violence, we aren't in a good position to pressure Borek. Especially because while we are nominally in charge of Asarnil his contract is with the dwarfs.
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This is not a military expedition is the sense you are imagining, Snori is not representing the army of Karaz Ankor because no such thing exists, he is representing Clan Redmane which would be vanishingly unlikely to execute him.
 
Whenyouseeyou said:
As a whole
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Giving you a summary in the spoilers below.
We've helped with the Stirland/Sylvania situation enough that it looks like Sylvania will cease to be Vampire central, we've invented some new spells, figured out the secret to counter spelling greenskin magic and taught it to the colleges, a ton of extra research papers, and learned the Skaven language and wrote a guide on how to read and speak that language. Also, a radical Dawi engineer gave a ton of hints on how to make guns to someone we know, leading to the invention of a real awesome rifle in Stirland.

The Emperor's wife died preventing Karl Franz from being born. The Emperor's new wife is a Ranaldite that we inadvertently helped reach her position, and we personally gave the kid the Ranaldian version of a baptism. We accidentally spurred the Dawi to create a massive canal that we would enable the Empire to bypass Marienburg as a trading port, which will make the Empire and the Dawi a ton of money.

Reclaimed Karak Eight Peaks, did a ton of damage to the Skaven, helped Karak Azul reconnect with the Karaz Ankor, and rescued Karak Vlag from Chaos. This stuff has helped make the Empire and the Karaz Ankor a ton of money.

Also, additional stuff, definitely. We definitely did more than this.
 
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