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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Aranfan said:
Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook. The tombkings and ogres are "neutral", and everyone else is either "order" or "destruction". This has implication for alliance games. It is literally part of the tabletop mechanics that dwarfs and high elves ally more easily and work together better than either with Orcs.
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Which makes some sense but people really are giving it to much credence here. I remember back when whf was in full swing there where big internet arguments that most of the "destruction" armies should be order as well since they might be hostile slaver empires but at least they didn't want to see the world burn. Greenskins where also always a bad fit because they don't actually ally easier with chaos or undead then they do with humans, dwarfs or elves. It was very much a tt simplification that people are taking to literally.
 
matvprok said:
Why people think that "order" factions are somehow obligated to be Friends and do magic of love and friendship with each other and it is somehow better for everyone?
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...Do you understand that the reason they're described as 'order' factions is purely to describe them as opposed to Chaos, which the 'destro' factions worship to varying degrees and have the ultimate goal of destroying the world? The Empire, foremost among the 'Order' factions, has spent the overwhelming majority of its existence in civil war or at war with its neighbours. Bretonnia is an entire nation that has a literal religious devotion to the ideals of bravery, nobility, and earning the right to rule, yet they're the most repressed place in the world that, as depicted in most editions, only avoids anything beyond peasant rebellions because everyone has something to gain from sustaining the polite fiction that life is idyllic there. Kislev has arguably done the most and definitely fought the hardest to stop Chaos from running amok in the Old World, yet they have a state-sponsored secret police whose members can openly flout the law if they can justify it with their superiors after the fact.

The Conclave of Light that Karl Franz put together in canon was the closest the Order factions ever got to beating Chaos with the power of friendship and working together, and that already started fraying at the seams the instant Archaon was defeated.
 
ninjafish said:
[X] HALL: No
[X] MEAT: Yes
[X] ARM: Yes
[X] NUT: Yes
[X] PAPERS: Yes

I'm back!

And I see the karak vlag thing went off well!
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Too well. You might have missed it, but per GM preview we are now apparently a dwarf, and Ranald got grudged for stealing our soul and incarnating us as a human. Here:
BoneyM said:
An announcement from the Emergency Meeting of the Ancestor Cult Conclave of the Karaz Ankor, hosted in Karaz-a-Karak.

After certain confidential information was vouchsafed to this body by a source of undoubtable repute, a Grudge is hereby leveled against the being, spirit, force, ancestor, demiurge, and/or anthropomorphic personification commonly known as Ranald, believed to originate somewhere in our about the continent called The Old World, for the crime of theft of a disembodied Dwarven soul, which has subsequently been incarnated in the form of an Umgi.

Reparation or vengeance for said Grudge is to be postponed pending the full and proper evaluation of the consequences of those actions, which may be considered to mitigate, in whole or in part, those actions.

Witnessed and entered into the Book of Grudges by the High King.
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matvprok said:
Also, can I please rant publically about how much I hate this concept of "order factions", "destro factions" or whatever. Where people get this black-and-white mentality? Why people assign some factions as "good" and some as "evil" (and how much I hate this tolkienesque application of this concepts too...)? Why people think that "order" factions are somehow obligated to be Friends and do magic of love and friendship with each other and it is somehow better for everyone?
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Well, in this universe the correlation is 'destructive gods rule the faction'.

Order faction is a overstatement really, but 'destruction faction' is kind of on the nose because of that. Really the Slann can be just as destructive to other 'order' factions as any Waagh, but since they're not actually actively destroying everyone not part of the 'plan' (they can't) they're not a 'destruction faction' (yet, Sotek exists).
 
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Briefvoice said:
Can you further justify the "very lucrative" side? It sounds like a money pit to me. What are you going to produce, other than agricultural products that are also being produced by people who don't have to pay a surcharge for security from the gribblies?
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Gladly! Agricultural products that are also being produced by people that don't have to pay a surcharge. :V

Seriously though; if EC's and other high nobility are throwing titles and privileges at anyone brave enough to try their hand at turning scary woods into (more) peaceful pasture and fields, it should be absolutely trivial to obtain a near-perpetual tax revenue lease for such no-man's-land (or more accurately: many-gribblies-land) for a song. Capital is invested in the initial colonization effort, and paid back long-term in the form of taxes on agricultural produce (and maybe artisan goods or trade at some point down the line if all fares well).

It's not different from other Empire land, but taxation rights to already-developed land are actually worth something. In this case, the EIC is funding the initial investment, and relying upon exponential generational growth and development for the venture become profitable at some point in the future. Sure, it's dependent on the success of the expedition and the ability to hang on to gains, so I concede that it'll be easier to become profitable when clearing out isolated forests wholesale, instead of pieces of, say, the Drakwald that will likely need to be defended more intensely than 'safe' land. But even if only all middle-sized scary forests were to be cleared out, that would already be an immeasurable boon for the Empire.
 
matvprok said:
Also, can I please rant publically about how much I hate this concept of "order factions", "destro factions" or whatever. Where people get this black-and-white mentality? Why people assign some factions as "good" and some as "evil" (and how much I hate this tolkienesque application of this concepts too...)? Why people think that "order" factions are somehow obligated to be Friends and do magic of love and friendship with each other and it is somehow better for everyone?
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I'm certainly not seeing any good the beast men bring by raiding, pillaging, and destroying human civilization or civs in general.

Dark elves being generally slaver people who raid the coasts and trade with Skaven. Dark elves following malekith and causing war between the dwarves and elves...

Skaven being... skaven.

Generally order factions means societies where they try to improve the lives of others compared to destro faction which main goals are to cause suffering and are sadistic like the dark elves or their goals cause suffering like the green skins and their lack of fear of death and warmongering causing immense suffering and destruction of any civilization they manage to throw a wagh at or the Skaven fucking humanity and the dwarves in general.

Your not going to find many people argue that their civilizations cause more good in the world then evil and are thus called destro factions.

order factions at least... questionably try and improve the lives and world in general. Elves stopping Chaos from encroaching, humans trying to thrive in a world that constantly trying to kill them as well as dwarves.

Not saying their always good, the fuck up with the war between dwarves and elves was caused primarily by elven pride or humanity fuck ups but as a civilization they try.

Point being your not going to find many people argue that slavery, genocide, and traditions of the destro factions are good just like you won't find many argue North Korea current state is good for it's citizens.
 
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Murska said:
True. But not looking is then lying to ourselves, which I dislike on principle.
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No, it's accepting that human brains are illogical and a bad thing you see personally will affect you more than one you just know about, then deciding that she cannot risk not being at her best on the expedition she's got responsibilities to. Certainly not just to...what, satisfy some need to know exactly how bad a fate she's leaving the people there to?

I don't know where the idea that knowing your own limits is lying to yourself came from, but it's not even slightly true.
 
At the risk of repeating the echo.

Order faction is overblown and only really comes into focus in serious invasions. (Chaos and Orc mostly)

most of the time these factions are competing with each other just as much as Europe was up to relatively recently. (in the historic sense)
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
nope, Mordheim. (just checked to be sure)
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That's actually Morgheim.

warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Morgheim

At the heart of the Marshes of Madness lies the ruined necropolis now called Morgheim, originally known as the city of Mourkain. "Mourkain" means "the Dead City" in the Strigany tongue.[3a] Once the capital of Strygos, Mourkain was founded by Kadon shortly after he fell under the dominion of the...
warhammerfantasy.fandom.com warhammerfantasy.fandom.com
 
Mopman43 said:
That's actually Morgheim.

warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Morgheim

At the heart of the Marshes of Madness lies the ruined necropolis now called Morgheim, originally known as the city of Mourkain. "Mourkain" means "the Dead City" in the Strigany tongue.[3a] Once the capital of Strygos, Mourkain was founded by Kadon shortly after he fell under the dominion of the...
warhammerfantasy.fandom.com warhammerfantasy.fandom.com
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Which is apparently another name for Mourkhain after all. It still looks a little too far North to me, though - it's supposed to be in the Marshes of Madness.
 
While it is true that trying to find good in beastmen is as pointless as trying to find a diamond in a manure heap it is worth noting that there are plenty of factions that don't fit the Order/Chaos divide and not just because they are a random sort of neutral. For instance:

Vampires: Yes they are predatory monsters who seek to create a caste system based on drinking he literal blood of their subjects, but they are also creatures of the world who would do rather poorly if it were eaten by Chaos. While that it is true that they are and existential threat under Nagash that says more of the great necromancer than them.

So here we are an evil 'Order' faction using evil magic, but wait it gets worse:

Chaos Dwarfs: They have Chaos in the name they sell to invading hordes, that surely means they are in on the end of the world party right? Well judging by their themes I would argue not really. Greed requires that you keep all your stuff. All the world collapsing into the Aethyr where your gold could spontaneously turn to corn flakes because Khone was feeling like making a pun is not good for you, so what are we looking at here? A Chaos faction that does not want to end the world and is just profiting from the conflict?

There are certainly people in WHF to which you can point and say 'those are the bad guys' but it's not a easy as Destruction bad, order Good
 
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I personally like the way the Blood Bowl 2 videogame handles it, where when it groups the teams into all-star teams there aren't two teams but three teams: Order all-stars (Humans[empire], Dwarfs, Brettonians, High Elves, and Kislev), Chaos all-stars (Chaos, Nurgle, Chaos Dwarfs, Norscans), and Destruction all-stars (Orcs, Skaven, and Underworld Denizens). That style of division makes more sense to me, personally.
 
Also I've been keeping up with the thread, and saw the discussion about magic and such.

Kadon as it turns out, was not an elf.

he was just a pre-colleges human wizard who used ghur, and was stupidly capable with it, His scrolls are stated to outright surpass anything elven mages can do with Ghur.

So yeah, we now have precedent, we must overcome elves with ulgu!
 
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Raydom said:
I'm certainly not seeing any good the beast men bring by raiding, pillaging, and destroying human civilization or civs in general.

Dark elves being generally slaver people who raid the coasts and trade with Skaven. Dark elves following malekith and causing war between the dwarves and elves...

Skaven being... skaven.

Generally order factions means societies where they try to improve the lives of others compared to destro faction which main goals are to cause suffering and are sadistic like the dark elves or their goals cause suffering like the green skins and their lack of fear of death and warmongering causing immense suffering and destruction of any civilization they manage to throw a wagh at or the Skaven fucking humanity and the dwarves in general.

Your not going to find many people argue that their civilizations cause more good in the world then evil and are thus called destro factions.

order factions at least... questionably try and improve the lives and world in general. Elves stopping Chaos from encroaching, humans trying to thrive in a world that constantly trying to kill them as well as dwarves.

Not saying their always good, the fuck up with the war between dwarves and elves was caused primarily by elven pride or humanity fuck ups but as a civilization they try.

Point being your not going to find many people argue that slavery, genocide, and traditions of the destro factions are good just like you won't find many argue North Korea current state is good for it's citizens.
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this isn't whats annoying people tho.

its... its looking at the 'order' factions as if they were an EU equivalent: whats good for one is good for all or something. and they will try to work together over competing with each other.

but the factions don't see themselves as the 'order factions', they don't interact that way, imperals and kislvans don't consider themselves connected to Bretonins and visa versa. they think of them as 'others' just as the French and Germans (way back in the day) didn't see the dutch as the same as them unless it was a convenient reason to invade.

they are not the European union.

they are 1500–1799 Europe. were to kingdoms will be fighting together in one front as sworn allies and against each other as bitter enemies in the other front.
 
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picklepikkl said:
This is really not true. It is a boon, not from the Karaz Ankor, but from Belegar. Karak Eight Peaks is landlocked. How, exactly, do you expect Belegar to be able to muster a force to conquer an island pirate confederacy and build a new stable government hundreds of miles away, off the southwest of Tilea? You might as well hand him the orange hair dye and save a few steps.
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Yes. This.

I want to triple dip the Research Institute. Use up Belegar Boon, and both Great Deeds for it.
BoneyM said:
"How do we get someone to let us build what they see as a Satanic dirty bomb on their doorstep" is a pretty significant problem that could be very neatly sidestepped by building it on a Wizard's land.
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One of the problems to create new College Campi or Research Institutes is that no one wants them anywhere near them.

So let's let Belegar provide the land (or Mountain) and the Colleges the expertise.
 
nothingtoseehere said:
use the Boon in a way to glorify Ranald before I'd spend it on something like that.
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Briefvoice said:
This is a better argument, but as always the challenge is- Then come up with a better idea. I'd rather vote for a research institute, but people don't seem to think that the dwarves have the right resources/capabilities to supply what Mathilde would want anyway. They want to 'fund' that with Great Deeds. And I'm not voting for a tricked-out private ironclad either. So what's the better idea?
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:whistle:
Alliterate said:
"So, if I'm officially a proper, proven Dawi..."
"...Don't say it."
"And proper Dawi only worship authentic Ancestor Gods, as is right and proper..."
"..."
"Does that make Ranald..."
Belegar grimaces, while Ulthar scratches his chin, thoughtfully.

Mathilde thus achieves her long-held wish of legitimatising Ranald worship, very much (not) as expected. :V
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Introducing Reclaiming Ranald the Ranger, official Ancestor God of Clan Shadowbeard of Karak Eight Peaks. :V
Klaus said:
I have long wanted a way for Mathilde to prank Ranald, rather than vice versa. Just a bit of ribbing between friends.
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The very respectable, upstanding, proper authority-figure Ancestor-God of Rangers Ranald. ;)
 
ninjafish said:
Also I've been keeping up with the thread, and saw the discussion about magic and such.

Kadon as it turns out, was not an elf.

he was just a pre-colleges human wizard who used ghur, and was stupidly capable with it, His scrolls are stated to outright surpass anything elven mages can do with Ghur.

So yeah, we now have precedent, we must overcome elves with ulgu!
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It does match what Boney has suggested about Humans being specialists and doing by instinct what no Elgi could even dream about.
 
Ericwinter said:
Athel Loren is supposed to be off-limits to outsiders, usually, but wasn't the same true for Nagarythe? Because Waystalker/Bladesinger training sounds almost as cool as Shadow Walker training.
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Well, even in 8E where GW really stepped up the "Hippy bad, queer men bad, female leaders bad" dogwhistles they do still invite some people in, and uninvited intruders are often led out through trickery rather than, you know. Putting an arrow through their throat.

Nevermind the 5E book, where an uninvited Bretonnian Knight can enter and then leave with an alliance. :V
 
Voikirium said:
Well, even in 8E where GW really stepped up the "Hippy bad, queer men bad, female leaders bad" dogwhistles they do still invite some people in, and uninvited intruders are often led out through trickery rather than, you know. Putting an arrow through their throat.

Nevermind the 5E book, where an uninvited Bretonnian Knight can enter and then leave with an alliance. :V
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*Squints* Asrai aren't allowed to not kill people. That goes against their Terms of Service agreements. :V

(I'd love to hear a sane head-canon about them, though. Surely at some point there might have been a smidge of reasonableness in their writing.)
 
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adaer said:
No, it's accepting that human brains are illogical and a bad thing you see personally will affect you more than one you just know about, then deciding that she cannot risk not being at her best on the expedition she's got responsibilities to. Certainly not just to...what, satisfy some need to know exactly how bad a fate she's leaving the people there to?

I don't know where the idea that knowing your own limits is lying to yourself came from, but it's not even slightly true.
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I'm not saying lying to yourself is always or fundamentally bad. I just dislike it. But lying to yourself because human brains are illogical and you've got good reasons to manage your mental health is a perfectly valid reason.

I've never claimed we should've looked in the Hall just to torture ourselves with what we can't do anything about. In fact, if we couldn't do anything about it then we should not look. My argument is that in this case, we could have done something. We could have saved a few people by buying them, at the least. Quite possibly we could've gained information that would help us save more later, or something that would be of other importance. Maybe we might even have smuggled someone out.

Was that worth the risks to ourselves and the Expedition? Maybe not. The decision was that it wasn't, which is fine with me.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
its looking at the 'order' factions as if they were an EU equivalent: whats good for one is good for all or something. and they will try to work together over competing with each other.
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I don't think this idea that people look at them as a singular block is a particularly commonly held position. They do though work together at times, if there's no reason not too (and, "this will make this nation we compete with economically stronger", isn't generally enough of a reason not to) like Algard filling in Bretonnia about the skaven civil war, or inviting a Damsel and Tilean to the Waasghbane lectures.

That said while they're by no means the EU your claim they fight each other as much as they do beastmen or similar is a swing way too far in the other direction. There are indeed occasional border conflicts between human nations, meanwhile though I would guess that as long as each polity has existed there has never been a period without them having forces in active conflict with beastmen and orcs on a greater or smaller scale.
 
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