Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Redshirt Army]

I'm very much in favour of negotiating safe passage.

I'm much more sketch on supplies - not necessarily because I don't trust them, but more for the reputational effects it might have within the expedition. I don't expect the Dwarves or the anti-Chaos Taalites to be that pleased with it.

Hiring them as mercenaries is the same issue only amplified even further.

There is also the question of whether we actually want them to attack the Yusak - the Yusak are a tribe that's breaking away from Chaos, after all. We could make contact with the Yusak by doing a "Karag Dum vicinity" scouting action and then negotiate with them separately.

 

[torac]

To me, the ideal solution would be convincing them that attacking their neighbours when they are distracted would be a great idea. Not sure how sensible that suggestion would be. We don't know about any alliances/friendships or whether they would find that unsporting or would rather team up with other tribes to attack the expedition instead… Any attempt would be risky as well.

An Apprentice waits by the appropriate street corner to let you in without having to go through their bizarre entrance ritual, and reality unfolds before your very eyes the buildings and streets are pushed back to make way for the Light College:

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Needs something to connect the phrases. Maybe "reality unfolds as before your very very eyes…"

Not so with the Knight's of Taal's Fury,

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Knights

make safe what could otherwise be a very dagnerous leg of the journey

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dangerous

 

[buli-buli]

I am personally all for passage and supplies.

Asking a dwarf expedition to fight alongside Dolgan is probably a bridge too far so mercenaries are out.

The only that worries me about instigating a war is helping destroy a tribe on the outs with Chaos without more detailed info.

 

[DragonParadox]

Norscans are common sights at every northern port. Marienburg's fortunes were built on a foundation of Norscan fur and amber. The Gospodar were Chaos-worshipping steppe nomads before they converted to the Ancient Widow and founded Kislev, and they currently have Kurgans in their military. This is not 40k and the situation is not as black and white as you are portraying.

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Also it's worth noting that Oswald comes from a long line of Chaos worshipers, true along the line the ancestor of his family broke the chain and moved to the Empire but that does not obviate the fact that a Chaos worshiping Norscan tribe could produce someone like that. Chaos worshiping people are not all raving beserkers or thralls to the dark gods with nothing but slaughter on their mind. They are people born under truly terrible circumstances into societies that worship eldritch abominations.

 

[Derpmind]

We really should try to start a war in the north. That way the local tribes will be totally out of position and much less able to react to and attack the Expedition. There will also be les of them.

We'd be replicating the environment of mutual warfare/hostility between the local factions we so thoroughly exploited in Karak Eight Peak to such amazing success. We can also then stir the pot with things like Doppleganger before the expedition arrives to maximise Kurgan casualties and kill their most dangerous champions.

It's an amazing opportunity that we should seize with both physical and as many Shadow hands as we can.

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Alternatively, a war might cause a centralization of power around a faction willing and ready to attack the expedition. I'd really rather not try to pull strings in the puppet master's territory. We shouldn't be making plans any more complicated than "be prepared"; not when one of our worst potential enemies is really really good at twisting plans.

 

[Alratan]

Condensing some of my thoughts. Mathilde works best when she's in a little c chaotic situation, where she can apply a little weight to the scales to make events fall in her sides favour. She's great at seizing opportunities when they present themselves.

To do this, she needs to be in unstable conditions, where one person with the right tools in the right place can make an enormous difference. Stability makes her work much harder.

We now have an opportunity to manufacture the conditions that are the prerequisite for Mathilde to do her best work, so we should go for it. She has a perfect alibi here. It's not suspicious at all for a Norscan sorcerer to want to beat up on a Kulgan tribe. They have a history of millennia of bad blood and raids back and forth.

Us asking the Dolgan to what will look like softening up the Yusak for our warband to deliver the final blow is also something that will make complete sense to them. It's simply good tactics. It also produces a ready made explanation for why we're negotiating passage and supplies to the vicinity of Karak Dum - that we're not there for the Karak, we're actually going to kick the crap out of the Yusak when they're even more down than they are now.

It sets up a completely incorrect expectation for the Dolgan that will make it even less likely that they'll successfully prepare to double cross us, as they'll be expecting a warband of Norscan allies/co-belligerants. Even if they do decide to betray us, they'd probably still wait until we had been bloodied and spent our strength on the Yusak.

 

[TimEd]

[ ] Seek passage, supplies, and for the Dolgan to attack the Yusak

This seem the most advantageous. Payment to them would not be known to others since no sustained contact would be made between the expedition and the tribe, and even for those who would be bothered, just the mention that they were hired to kill those who served and failed one of the Four should make them accept it.

On Supplies though, I am hoping that if they agree to this, the return trip could keep this supply point. This is somewhat necessary since doing so plans for whether we suceed or fail (be too heavy laden with goods or dwarves, or lose enough of our stuff or people to need the supplies) and shortens whatever possible time crunch we would be under regarding whatever problems arise. Also I am hoping that if needed, we could get the option to gamble on a Heal if ever one of our units need it.

Lastly, the main cost of this will be gold, which we have a buttload of. The bemefits would then be cheap in comparison.

 

[Redshirt Army]

I think we have to make a judgement call right now, with incomplete information.

The Yusak have "lost favor with the Four" and want to move south, out of the Chaos Wastes proper.

That doesn't necessarily imply that they no longer worship Chaos - you can be out of favor with religious authorities while still being a believer - but it is suggestive.

More directly, the Yusak are weakened from the lack of divine support and the other tribes are side-eying them for elimination. They probably won't want to take on a fight they don't have to, if we negotiate... unless the Four promise them they can get back in favour by betraying us.

In general, arranging for the destruction of a tribe that might be starting to break away from Chaos leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, but relying on their better natures in a future negotiation that hasn't happened yet absolutely is a gamble, since it's not like we can backtrack to the Dolgans and say "actually wipe these guys out after all thanks" afterwards.

It's a tricky situation, so I find myself falling back to "What Would Ranald Do", at which point the answer becomes obvious - Ranald would totally try to steal the Yusak away from the worship of Chaos, by creating an internal revolution if he had to.

So yeah, I don't think I'll support any vote to have the Dolgans attack the Yusak, with an aim to take the "Scout Dum Vicinity" action next turn and negotiate with the Yusak directly.

 

[Alratan]

'Losing the favour of the Four' is a regular event for chaos worshippers, and given the way Kurgan culture works doesn't even mean that they have actually lost favour, just that they've had a run of bad luck or defeats.

the usual reaction to losing favour is also not to defect it's too double down on the Chaos worship to regain favour. That's probably why the Chaos Gods are fickle in their blessings on the treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen principle.

They may be seeking lands further from the Four for the traditional reasons that Chaos worshippers that want to gain favour with their gods do, to kill the inhabitants and sacrifice them.

Alternatively, a war might cause a centralization of power around a faction willing and ready to attack the expedition. I'd really rather not try to pull strings in the puppet master's territory. We shouldn't be making plans any more complicated than "be prepared"; not when one of our worst potential enemies is really really good at twisting plans.

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This isn't about complicated plans. It's the opposite. It's about creating the conditions in which complicated plans fail and someone with the right tools to react at the right moment has the advantage. That someone is Mathilde.

The less stable the situation on the western Steppes is the better for us.

 

[Boney]

I think we have to make a judgement call right now, with incomplete information.

The Yusak have "lost favor with the Four" and want to move south, out of the Chaos Wastes proper.

That doesn't necessarily imply that they no longer worship Chaos - you can be out of favor with religious authorities while still being a believer - but it is suggestive.

More directly, the Yusak are weakened from the lack of divine support and the other tribes are side-eying them for elimination. They probably won't want to take on a fight they don't have to, if we negotiate... unless the Four promise them they can get back in favour by betraying us.

In general, arranging for the destruction of a tribe that might be starting to break away from Chaos leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, but relying on their better natures in a future negotiation that hasn't happened yet absolutely is a gamble, since it's not like we can backtrack to the Dolgans and say "actually wipe these guys out after all thanks" afterwards.

It's a tricky situation, so I find myself falling back to "What Would Ranald Do", at which point the answer becomes obvious - Ranald would totally try to steal the Yusak away from the worship of Chaos, by tormenting an internal revolution if he had to.

So yeah, I don't think I'll support any vote to have the Dolgans attack the Yusak, with an aim to take the "Scout Dum Vicinity" action next turn and negotiate with the Yusak directly.

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Added:
[ ] Seek to make contact with the Yusak instead

 

[Angelform]

Something to note is that to get safe passage we would need to tell them that the expedition consists of a bunch of giant mechanical behemoths. Otherwise they will not know it is the people they negotiated with and act accordingly. We would probably also have to tell them we are heading northwards, as a 'caravan' going unexpected places would likely prompt them to call treachery. As such they will know that Dwarfs are coming from the west and heading to Karag Dum. This is information I very much do not want getting out ahead of time.

I'm for telling them nothing.

Although in the interests of opening up options:
[ ] (write in) Prompt the Dolgan to attack the Yusak, do not mention the expedition.
@BoneyM is this viable?

 

[Cheap Orange Knofe]

This seems like a long throw of the dice. Ranald compels me!

 

[Boney]

Something to note is that to get safe passage we would need to tell them that the expedition consists of a bunch of giant mechanical behemoths. Otherwise they will not know it is the people they negotiated with and act accordingly. We would probably also have to tell them we are heading northwards, as a 'caravan' going unexpected places would likely prompt them to call treachery. As such they will know that Dwarfs coming from the west and heading to Karag Dum. This is information I very much do not want getting out ahead of time.

I'm for telling them nothing.

Although in the interests of opening up options:
[ ] (write in) Prompt the Dolgan to attack the Yusak, do not mention the expedition.
@BoneyM is this viable?

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'Because me and my buddies are gonna be rolling through to scare the hell out of them and make them split their attention' is how the prompting goes. If they were vulnerable enough to kick around without some sort of advantage like that, it would already be happening.

 

[Andres]

relying on their better natures in a future negotiation that hasn't happened yet absolutely is a gamble

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I was on board the moment you said the magic 'g' word.

 

[Derpmind]

[ ] Seek to make contact with the Yusak instead

 

[Briefvoice]

Passage certainly. Passage and supplies? I think we could talk the Expedition into it. Fighting alongside them? Perhaps a bridge too far.

 

[Alratan]

Something to note is that to get safe passage we would need to tell them that the expedition consists of a bunch of giant mechanical behemoths. Otherwise they will not know it is the people they negotiated with and act accordingly. We would probably also have to tell them we are heading northwards, as a 'caravan' going unexpected places would likely prompt them to call treachery. As such they will know that Dwarfs are coming from the west and heading to Karag Dum. This is information I very much do not want getting out ahead of time.

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Why?

We could let them believe it was a Norscan warband that was coming through for now, and only do the reveal later when it's much harder for them to back out as they don't have prep time and there's a dragon breathing down their necks.

 

[NSMS]

I'm very wary of trying for more than safe passage, and even that is a risk. If we negotiate for anything then it lets these guys and anybody else they feel like selling the information to know that there's going to be a big group passing through the area, one which will be carrying valuables (food, weapons, armour, etc). That means they'll have a date and place to prepare to raid or ambush the expedition, and while I don't doubt the expedition's ability to fight them off there's still a good chance we'll lose people in such a raid. Basically, we should only try to negotiate for anything if we're comfortable trusting the Dolgan will both keep their word and won't try to sell or otherwise exploit their knowledge of the expedition.

As for not going beyond safe passage, my reason there is mostly concern about handing more money than strictly necessary over to chaos worshippers and potential enemies of the Empire/Kislev. Mathilde notes most of the expedition wouldn't be happy with it if they knew, and there's a good reason for that even if you ignore the chaos aspect of the situation; in a year or five or ten, whatever gold we pay them with could end up being used to buy weapons from the chaos dwarves or hire mercenaries from other tribes for a raid on the Empire.

So basically, my preference is for either safe passage or nothing.

 

[Rafin]

Have I mentioned before that we need an Existential Dread emoji? Because this makes me think we need an Existential Dread emoji.

I can not see that ending any way but in tears.

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I mean that result is a possibility, but any "elder" beardling that thinks he is a higher authority than a living ancestor on wether one can bless a group of staunch allies in order to save Dawi lives and property in time of need should really get their head checked.
Not to mention that if my arguments and insistence lead to Kragg the Grimm going Slayer over having done something good then I'd go Slayer myself right alongside him.

 

[The Phoenixian]

I think we have to make a judgement call right now, with incomplete information.

The Yusak have "lost favor with the Four" and want to move south, out of the Chaos Wastes proper.

That doesn't necessarily imply that they no longer worship Chaos - you can be out of favor with religious authorities while still being a believer - but it is suggestive.

More directly, the Yusak are weakened from the lack of divine support and the other tribes are side-eying them for elimination. They probably won't want to take on a fight they don't have to, if we negotiate... unless the Four promise them they can get back in favour by betraying us.

In general, arranging for the destruction of a tribe that might be starting to break away from Chaos leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, but relying on their better natures in a future negotiation that hasn't happened yet absolutely is a gamble, since it's not like we can backtrack to the Dolgans and say "actually wipe these guys out after all thanks" afterwards.

It's a tricky situation, so I find myself falling back to "What Would Ranald Do", at which point the answer becomes obvious - Ranald would totally try to steal the Yusak away from the worship of Chaos, by creating an internal revolution if he had to.

So yeah, I don't think I'll support any vote to have the Dolgans attack the Yusak, with an aim to take the "Scout Dum Vicinity" action next turn and negotiate with the Yusak directly.

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One point of import here: It's worth noting that the Ice Witches wanted something from the tribes near Karag Dum specifically. From context between that update and this, that could be the Kvelliges and Khazags, but it could also be the Yusak. If someone can narrow that down, great, but if not it looks like there's a one in three chance that it is the Yusak. (I'm hoping it's not the Dolgan, but that looks fairly unlikely if my read on context is right.) EDIT: Analysis based on misread, corrected later.

Not only would this make negotiating with the Yusak troublesome, but this could also mean that sending the Dolgan to attack the Yusak could end up with the Dolgan holding that item if they take it as spoils. And one imagines that the Plotter's influence would make that far more likely to happen. Which would be... problematic, to say the least.

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Wholly unrelated. On a side note, I'm a little sad that the Immigrant Song chapter titles are a little far from the Birdmuncha's Waagh. Because, well, opening with "WaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!" would make a great transition, no?

 

[Briefvoice]

I am definitely not in favor of attempting to contact the Yusak.

That's sacrificing a bird in the hand for something that looks like it might be a bird in the bush. Remember, it'll be another roll just to see if we can even find someone who shares a common language. Reasonable possibility we get nothing at all.

 

[Garlak]

Apocrypha threadmark "Do and Do Not" has somehow gone into one of those weird Threadmark states again.

Going forward from "Egrimm van Horstmann, Hero of the Empire" you can only reach "Meanwhile, in BorekQuest". Going backward from BorekQuest, you can only reach Hero of the Empire.

If starting at "Do and Do Not", it appears as the last threadmark in Apocrypha (even though BorekQuest should be ahead of it). Going backwards from it you can reach Hero of the Empire; but you can't return to it, because Hero of the Empire goes directly to BorekQuest.


So, another one of those weird Threadmark things, where one of the entries is sort of... 'shadowed' or skipped over or dead-ended.

 

[Tasoli]

People remember; say no to Chaos.

Paying Chaos worshippers is not a good idea. Now if we had time to settle down in the area and work on turning them away from Chaos it might be a decent idea to have some working relationship. But this looks like to be a lone deal so not a good idea. Which is why I will not vote for anything more than safe passage.

 

[WorldSlayer]

We have no reason to trust these Kurgan which means any deal for safe passage would be rather suspect. They can potentially use any information about the Expedition to prepare an ambush or sell the information to someone else. Better to leave them in the dark and leave our metaphorical talking points about not attacking the Expedition to suddenly turning up and being incredibly hard to ambush due to the speed of our carriages, the cannons, the dragon, the demigryphs, the wolves and the wizards.

I am however interested in contacting the Yusak. While it's probable we won't get anything out of it, if we're lucky on the gamble they might be ripe for revolution and being turned away from Chaos. Maybe we can even set them on one of the factions with our support or have them do something else that's useful. We've discovered there's a faction of Kurgan who might be vulnerable to the sway of Imperial gods, so let's take the chance for Ranald.

[ ] Seek to make contact with the Yusak instead

 

[Briefvoice]

People remember; say no to Chaos.

Paying Chaos worshippers is not a good idea. Now if we had time to settle down in the area and work on turning them away from Chaos it might be a decent idea to have some working relationship. But this looks like to be a lone deal so not a good idea. Which is why I will not vote for anything more than safe passage.

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And yet....

Norscans are common sights at every northern port. Marienburg's fortunes were built on a foundation of Norscan fur and amber. The Gospodar were Chaos-worshipping steppe nomads before they converted to the Ancient Widow and founded Kislev, and they currently have Kurgans in their military. This is not 40k and the situation is not as black and white as you are portraying.

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That's a lot of people finding that they can in fact work with Chaos worshippers.