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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Less Vague Artillery
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation.
-[X] JOHANN: Write a paper: Ratling Gun mechanism and countermeasures
-[X] DUCK: Spend time with Hubert to try to ensure a good relationship between him and magic, and between him and his identity as a Wizard.
-[X] EIC: Lend the services of the Hochlander, and the EIC's intelligence and contacts, to Roswita to help track down the Talabeclanders buying peat from the vampires.
-[X] Attempt to create a network of anti-air artillery emplacements, featuring runed artillery, personal/Altar scale enchanted items to provide accuracy buffs, and a small reserve of specialist runed ammunition for the hardest targets.
--[X] Suggested artillery runes: Rune of Accuracy/Flakksson's Rune of Seeking for precision, Rune of Penetrating for damage
--[X] Suggested buffs: Trial and Error, Second Portent of Amul (not necessarily at the same time)
--[X] Specialist bolts: (Master) Rune of Dragonslaying/Demonslaying, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Striking
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Travel to the Grey College and attend lessons there: Staff Turning
-[X] Attempt to interest a prominent and knowledgeable Runesmiths in the interaction between Runes and Vitae. (will start at the top and work your way down)
-[X] Dictate papers:
--[X] Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary, including spoken Low Queekish
--[X] Insight on Skaven tactics and strategy
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Have a tower built atop Karag Nar
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Brief observations on Eshin Sorcery

[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Artillery

After some thought this seems the best. The dragon can hit us from underground and that needs to be taken into account in any plan. Sure having general anti-air capability is nice but we were asked for something that could take out the local dragon in the unlikely situation it turns on us. This plan gets us the specialized anti-dragon ammunition combined with boosted luck and aim to kill the dragon no matter where it strikes. Also since we're also making a network of anti-air to fire those weapons it covers that as well.

If we could combine it with our hypothetical teleport network to ensure those super weapons are always in the right place it would be even better.
 
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WorldSlayer said:
After some thought this seems the best. The dragon can hit us from underground and that needs to be taken into account in any plan. Sure having general anti-air capability is nice but we were asked for something that could take out the local dragon in the unlikely situation it turns on us. This plan gets us the specialized anti-dragon ammunition combined with boosted luck and aim to kill the dragon no matter where it strikes. Also since we're also making a network of anti-air to fire those weapons it covers that as well.
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What you're voting for is anti-air artillery, not general purpose artillery. "Emplacements" are fixed positions. Also, trying to split the difference between air and ground combat with artillery is a really bad idea, because artillery is very slow to move around and the Ice Dragon is very fast.

If you want something that can kill an Emperor dragon both in the air and in the ground, the best thing is a magic item with a boosted Transformation of Kadon. Set an Emperor dragon to kill an Emperor dragon.

EDIT: The Great Fire Dragon that a boosted Transformation of Kadon turns you into is actually a fair bit more powerful than a Star Dragon, though I reckon the Ice Dragon's ability to use magic evens it out.
 
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Andres110 said:
What you're voting for is anti-air artillery, general purpose artillery. "Emplacements" are fixed positions. Also, trying to split the difference between air and ground combat with artillery is a really bad idea, because artillery is very slow to move around and the Ice Dragon is very fast.

If you want something that can kill an Emperor dragon both in the air and in the ground, the best thing is a magic item with a boosted Transformation of Kadon. Set an Emperor dragon to kill an Emperor dragon.

EDIT: The Great Fire Dragon that a boosted Transformation of Kadon turns you into is actually a fair bit more powerful than a Star Dragon, though I reckon the Ice Dragon's ability to use magic evens it out.
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I'm aware but the important part in my mind for if the dragon comes underground is the specialized bolts from dwarf runes and wizardly accuracy boosters. A lightning tower in comparison is hardly going to shoot underground.

A Transformation of Kadon item would probably just get instantly dispelled. Which admittedly wastes time for the dragon to gather sufficient magic to do so.
 
BoneyM said:
intermixed with grudging admittance that once they do set their minds to working instead of tugging the beards of the Karak's clans,
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Wait, 'much tugging of beards' refers to another dwarfs beard? My mind is blown. Always thought it was referring to tugging your own beard in distress.

BoneyM said:
"We used to give a staff to commemorate, but the previous Turner passed away and none have shown the ability and inclination to take it up.
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Do we know if we have this ability or aptitude for staff turning? Is it the same as, related to, or distinct from Enchanting?
I have to say, I am not open to the prospect of soft College pressure to turn out staves for other graduating Grey Wizards, by showing this 'inclination to take it up'.
 
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Alliterate said:
Do we know if we have this ability or aptitude for staff turning? Is it the same as, related to, or distinct from Enchanting?
I have to say, I am not open to the prospect of soft College pressure to turn out staves for other graduating wizards, by showing this 'inclination to take it up'.
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The inclination bit is "No one with the talent wants to actually sit around and make staffs all day." We should have the aptitude, but not the inclination and we are more useful where we are. Maybe if we did nothing useful, then we might be getting pressure but not at the moment.
 
Lupercal said:
I like it. The main pro and con is that it is just laying down a set of design goals and then asking BoneyM to do the hard work.

My personal favourite is still just build lots of runed and enchanted bolt throwers and turn the caldera into a kill zone.

However. All of the current plans ignore that the Dragon (which is the job remember not anti-air for the tower) has demonstrated the ability and will to stay underground and kill tunneling things fro there with out flying in the open at all.
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It suggests spells just like the Tower plans do. It just leaves more space for dice/inspiration to add or even completely change things. But if BoneyM felt like it he could have the collaborators all be boring and not add a thing beyond what Mathilde suggests in the plan itself.

It is also definitely small enough to be deployed in the Underway, if maybe not inside Karak hallways.
Andres110 said:
What you're voting for is anti-air artillery, general purpose artillery. "Emplacements" are fixed positions. Also, trying to split the difference between air and ground combat with artillery is a really bad idea, because artillery is very slow to move around and the Ice Dragon is very fast.

If you want something that can kill an Emperor dragon both in the air and in the ground, the best thing is a magic item with a boosted Transformation of Kadon. Set an Emperor dragon to kill an Emperor dragon.

EDIT: The Great Fire Dragon that a boosted Transformation of Kadon turns you into is actually a fair bit more powerful than a Star Dragon, though I reckon the Ice Dragon's ability to use magic evens it out.
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I'd be willing to vote for that. But how would you implement it in a way that a lay person can use? Transforming a Dwarf into a Dragon seems right out, so I guess it would be about training an Undumgi for it. Something that can be stolen or abused is out too, so it probably should be an immobile altar behind the main gates of Karak Lhune that only the King can activate. Also, is the spell effective when a person uses in anger for the first time or must they "train" to use a Dragon body?
 
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Rafin said:
I'd be willing to vote for that. But how would you implement it in a way that a lay person can use? Transforming a Dwarf into a Dragon seems right out, so I guess it would be about training an Undumgi for it. Something that can be stolen or abused is out too, so it probably should be an immobile altar behind the main gates of Karak Lhune that only the King can activate. Also, is the spell effective when a person uses in anger for the first time or must they "train" to use a Dragon body?
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Dunno. Could go magic item or altar or whatever. All works. Dwarves can use magic items just fine. They're resistant to magic but that just means they get a +10 willpower bonus when trying to resist magic compared to other races. Hand em a magic item and they can use it as well as any human, and if they're not resisting your spell you can heal them up and do whatever with no issue. Even if they resisted, it's still just a +10 bonus, which is minor. (In WFRP, dwarf magic resistance is represented by getting a +2 bonus when dispelling, which only Runesmiths can do.) There is no need to train the dragon body. Transform and you can use the form's abilities with complete proficiency, and you even get Weapon Skill 8. (For comparison, Swordmasters of Hoeth have Weapon Skill 7.)
 
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Andres110 said:
Dunno. Could go magic item or altar or whatever. All works. Dwarves can use magic items just fine. They're resistant to magic but that just means they get a +10 willpower bonus when trying to resist magic compared to other races. Hand em a magic item and they can use it as well as any human, and if they're not resisting your spell you can heal them up and do whatever with no issue. Even if they resisted, it's still just a +10 bonus, which is minor. (It's minor enough that they have no magic resistance in WFB.) There is no need to train the dragon body. Transform and you can use the form's abilities with complete proficiency, and you even get Weapon Skill 8. (For comparison, Swordmasters of Hoeth have Weapon Skill 7.)
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When I last brought up the notion of an item of Transformation it was brought up that magic which transforms the body is dangerous to the person over and above the risks obviated by making and item. The user might get stuck like that or worse still only manage to transform back halfway.
 
Andres110 said:
EDIT: The Great Fire Dragon that a boosted Transformation of Kadon turns you into is actually a fair bit more powerful than a Star Dragon, though I reckon the Ice Dragon's ability to use magic evens it out.
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An actual Emperor Dragon from the Storm of Magic supplement is a tier above Great Fire Dragon from Kadon's transformation, though (it is S9 T9 W9 death machine)
 
DragonParadox said:
When I last brought up the notion of an item of Transformation it was brought up that magic which transforms the body is dangerous to the person over and above the risks obviated by making and item. The user might get stuck like that or worse still only manage to transform back halfway.
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So what? If an Emperor Dragon is attacking then a little thing like being a dragon forever is worth the risk.

LockedMind said:
An actual Emperor Dragon from the Storm of Magic supplement is a tier above Great Fire Dragon from Kadon's transformation, though (it is S9 T9 W9 death machine)
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Oh, I thought Emperor Dragons and Star Dragons were the same thing, just with different names.
 
Andres110 said:
Dunno. Could go magic item or altar or whatever. All works. Dwarves can use magic items just fine. They're resistant to magic but that just means they get a +10 willpower bonus when trying to resist magic compared to other races. Hand em a magic item and they can use it as well as any human, and if they're not resisting your spell you can heal them up and do whatever with no issue. Even if they resisted, it's still just a +10 bonus, which is minor. (In WFRP, dwarf magic resistance is represented by getting a +2 bonus when dispelling, which only Runesmiths can do.) There is no need to train the dragon body. Transform and you can use the form's abilities with complete proficiency, and you even get Weapon Skill 8. (For comparison, Swordmasters of Hoeth have Weapon Skill 7.)
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I'd still go for an altar since I can't imagine that slapping boosted battle magic of the highest order on anything smaller can possibly be safe. Also who knows, maybe an altar might allow multiple simultaneous users. And at the very least it would be harder to carry away and might even be made able to deactivate the transformation remotely if the dragon goes rogue.
 
Andres110 said:
Oh, I thought Emperor Dragons and Star Dragons were the same thing, just with different names.
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If we are talking about crunch, then no. Storm of Magic has 4 dragon tiers (young/without descriptor/great/emperor IIRC). First three are more or less analogous to elven Sun/Moon/Star (although the stats aren't exactly same, but that is expected from Warhammer) and the fourth is off the charts (SoM introduces several such monsters since it is a Fantasy analogue to 40k Apocalypse rules). There is also Imperial dragon, but the adjective only means that he is aligned with the Empire (it is the one who lives in Imperial Zoo), stat-wise he is Moon rather than Emperor. Transformation of Kadon turns caster into a Great Dragon (although the stats again differs from those of the Great Dragon in SoM, it is halfway between Great and Emperor stat-wise).

If we are talking about quest canon, then Emperor and Star can by synonymous in some cases. IIRC BoneyM said something that can be summarized as "Star dragon is a category without an upper boundary", which means that some Star Dragons in the quest is probably on the Emperor-level, but are still called Star Dragons cause that's the terminology Elves use.
 
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DragonParadox said:
When I last brought up the notion of an item of Transformation it was brought up that magic which transforms the body is dangerous to the person over and above the risks obviated by making and item. The user might get stuck like that or worse still only manage to transform back halfway.
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Be upfront about the risks and I think you'd still be able to find humans willing to volunteer. Turning a mage into a dragon is an impressive increase in power, but turning an otherwise mundane human into a dragon is slightly more impressive still.

Also a dragon transformation altar sounds cool.
 
LockedMind said:
An actual Emperor Dragon from the Storm of Magic supplement is a tier above Great Fire Dragon from Kadon's transformation, though (it is S9 T9 W9 death machine)
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Transform multiple guys into dragons then.

Rotekian said:
Be upfront about the risks and I think you'd still be able to find humans willing to volunteer. Turning a mage into a dragon is an impressive increase in power, but turning an otherwise mundane human into a dragon is slightly more impressive still.

Also a dragon transformation altar sounds cool.
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Is someone willing to write it up? I'm in town on mobile.

Edit: I'm thinking minimize destruction on miscasts, make heavy enough to not be easily carried away by the resulting dragon, transforms anyone willing but can only be activated by a dwarf with a special key, of which there are could be 3+.
 
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