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No, petty magic is just a set of spells which can have their effects achieved via any Wind (or any divine lore, or dhar, for that matter). They're still Wind-specific and taught to be done using a single Wind by the Colleges. Anyone who comes to the Colleges already knowing some petty magic is expected to unlearn their previous way of doing them because it probably involves dhar use.
Hmmm makes sense.

Either way a part of me wonders what happens when stuff like Ice magic or divine lores are exposed to the snek juice but that's pretty much just academic anyway.
 
I'd like to note that in terms of experiment danger, I consider snakejuice research - and storage! - much more hazardous than indirect casting research.

That's a lot of quasi-stable high energy substance with unknown properties. By comparison, tong research workes with more limited amounts of energy stored in vastly better understood ways.

Edit: in hindsight, the way we handled snakejuice is downright criminal, and I can't call it as anything but gross negligence. It's a minor miracle a catastrope didn't happen.
 
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Then, uh, too bad? If we can't explain why we thought doing an experiment was safe, then that's a reason not to do it until we can.
Because 'we have a semi-stable suspension of something resembling all eight winds coexisting without being Qaysh or Dhar- we've managed to separate Ulgu from said solution without it collapsing into Dhar and we think this is a promising avenue to investigate the hitherto unknown effects Winds can have on each other'.

Bam. We have an excuse. Aethyr Vitae shows the Winds can potentially coexist at densities that dwarf all but the most magically saturated environments in stable configurations. I genuinely think the notion that Snake Juice and indirect casting are wholly different is missing a lot of what makes the implications of the Juice so revolutionary.
 
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@SuperSonicSound

Do you think these would reasonable prerequisites before trying to touch another wind with ulgu tongs?
1) Observe actual users of the other wind
2) Spend several turns planning how to conduct the experiment
3) Find out if there has been any previous attempts at this
4) Properly set up mage tower and additional equipment, such as a good magic staff
and if possible
Gain an additional step in the Wind Reader trait path
Consult with a reasonably skilled elf mage before even trying to do this

I dont think extra magic power would help, the elves dont cast high magic in that way instead wielding all the winds of magic at the same time. Another level in the wind reader trait could help.

Also for the preliminary research we wouldnt even be trying to cast a spell wth the 2nd wind. The primary purpose is to see if it can be manipulated by the tongs or other implement/shape/interactive concept with out making Dhar.

Remember the snake juice experiment which had mathilde just moving ulgu around with out casting?

The aim is to successfully achieve that with another wind using ulgu as the implement without making dhar. No spell casting involved.

I believe that level of experimentation is safe with the colleges as well. If we can prove to ourselves that were not making dhar with this then id suggest going to the grey order for permission to do actual casting research.
 
I mean, the college putting people who try to figure out multi-wind casting to the sword seems pretty damn relevant
No, because it misses the key point: what's forbidden is channeling multiple winds.

The premise of the proposed research is to never leave Ulgu.

It's, by definition, not forbidden.

One has to point to a rule if they wish exemption to it, and in this case, it doesn't exist. How do you ask permission to do something that was never forbidden in the first place?
 
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... said every other with one weird trick. These weren't just idiots who tried this.

This isn't actually insightful. We have word of god that we're literally safe from the thing that fucked those guys up. They get screwed by dhar exposure and they were also doing something we're NOT proposing doing. They channeled two different winds of magic. That is they ran Ulgu through their soul and then run Ghryan through their soul. That's explicitly what BoneyM posted. With our experiments Mathilde would never run the other wind of magic through her soul known as Channelling. We'd also have the dwarf runic belt burning any incidental dhar that gets near us.

They didn't have this one weird trick. They just thought that channelling other winds would be safe if they had time to detox which wasn't the case.

No other human wizard could juggle warpstone with out mutating into a dabilitated pile of sludge. Mathilde could.

Regardless the start point of the conjecture here is wrong.

Channelling two winds of magic is illegal per best practices in the colleges. Accepted.
Manipulating another wind of magic with your college approved wind. Not illegal. We do it with counter spelling and did so on a massive scale for instance in the Waaghbane trait.

Proposed research fits in under the paradigm that counter spelling is legal. No spells would be cast until permission is obtained to work on that and preliminary research is to simply see if it's possible to refine a technique to reduce incidental dhar creation from touching one wind to another via technique refinement, if no the research is a dead end and can be dropped [Action cost: one]

If yes, then we'd need to see if it's possible to get to the point where no dhar is created. [Action cost: unknown]
 
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... said every other with one weird trick. These weren't just idiots who tried this.
If you aren't going to debate in good faith, why bother? We pretty much categorically know there hasn't been a Wizard with as many ties and rune work since the fucking War of the Beard- that's 'one weird trick' accounted for no one else has. And even then, High Elves would have minimal interest in what we're trying to do.

Then the Liber Mortis. That's a doozy but considering it's pretty much the first big foray into mortal casted Necromancy since Nagash, it's pretty exclusive. All of Nagash's notes and insights without the traps. And we know that next to no necromancers actually got the whole book otherwise we'd have seen more Vampire War tier undead threats. 'I read the entire Liber Mortis' is a very exclusive club- that's been hammered home since day one.

Present me hypotheticals, explain to me what these other possible tricks might have reasonably been that they engender false arrogance like we supposedly have or get an actual argument grounded in facts rather than 'common sense dictates everybody who tried it was as well equipped as this unique scenario we are playing as'.
 
No, because it misses the key point: what's forbidden is channeling multiple winds.

The premise of the proposed research is to never leave Ulgu.

It's, by definition, not forbidden.

One has to point to a rule if they wish exemption to it, and in this case, it doesn't exist. How do you ask permission to do something that was never forbidden in the first place?

Article:
Black Magisters do not have to have embraced the Chaos Gods, nor must they have begun studying the arts of Daemonology or Necromancy. All it takes is for them to intentionally and persistently experiment with more than one Wind of Magic at a time. These traitorous acts will earn the Magister the relentless hostility of his prior Order.


Not "use". Not "channel". Experiment.

Boney's WoG was in support of and an expansion of this quote, which is itself from a canonical Warhammer source.

And the tongs method absolutely falls under "experimenting with multiple winds".

And yes, there's a bunch of mitigating factors in our case. In point of fact, I do believe that Mathilde could do the actual experimentation safely.

But it's still on her to provide a convincing case to the Colleges - ideally beforehand, since asking for permission afterwards probably requires an even stronger standard of evidence.
 
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... said every other with one weird trick. These weren't just idiots who tried this.
Do you have, like, an actual point to make?

Every example we have is of people trying to do like the elves, and channel multiple winds, which people eventually cottoned on is no bueno.

Thus, we won't even try to retread ground that's probably unpassable.
 
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The context of that conversation was regarding the tongs though? DarkLight said "hey, using Ulgu Tongs is a no go by the Articles,". Then, someone asked him to expand on that and when he did, BoneyM said "Yeah, they used to be more chill about it but it turned out badly every time so now they skip to the murder."

Abhorsen's interpretation seems eminently reasonable, since that's the same way I interpreted it.
The quote provided seems pretty clear to me. Some wizards decided to try something like ulgu tongs. It went badly.
None of them tried the tongs. They manhandled multiple winds directly. Using winds directly is the only way you can get arcane marks from that wind. That's why swapping between winds gets you locked into whichever one you get the mark for; BoneyM wasn't saying that wizards who experimented with multiple winds used one as a tong for the other, they were saying that some wizards were trying to use multiple winds at the same time directly.

They weren't doing A -> B, they were doing AB and that invariably multiplies into evil. A -> B only creates environmental Dhar if done properly, which poisons people indirectly in a way they can notice, because that was the entire point of Nagash inventing the A -> B method in the first place. He may have already been a total supervillain and thus immune to the mental corruption of True Dhar, but he needed to become a giant skeleton for a reason; even he wasn't totally immune to its physical effects.
 
Not "use". Not "channel". Experiment.
"Hey Algard 'we have a semi-stable suspension of something resembling all eight Winds coexisting without being Qaysh or Dhar- we've managed to separate Ulgu from said solution without it collapsing into Dhar and we think this is a promising avenue to investigate the hitherto unknown effects Winds can have on each other' do we have your sanction to pursue this?"

Do you honestly think we'll suffer censure for bringing up the possibility and opportunities afforded by this?

By the logic you're presenting Snake Juice might qualify on it's own for breaking the College's rules by virtue of being a suspension of something resembling multiple Winds. It sure has the possibility of leading in that direction. But you don't see people screaming about the legal consequences of researching it.
 
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jeez the thread madness is striking very hard today

I genuinely don't think it is worth our time arguing about this stuff at this point. We know too little and have too much other basic research and self-improvement work to do before we begin a dual-caster project. To steal words from a philosopher who is kind of ridiculous but also quite correct in this instance:
Wittgenstein said:
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
In unrelated, lighter news:
Yes! The contrast between them is hilarious, Panoramia with her slightly naive hopefulness, with Mathilde there to protect her from harm and keep her hope alive! I love the idea of Panoramia introducing Mathilde to her hippy parents:

Pan: Mom, Dad, I know it's not conventional, but I'm dating a...
Dad: Oh, don't worry sweety, we always knew you preferred women.
P: No, I mean she's a...
Mom: Oh, it's fine if she's not a wizard, we won't judge her. What does she do for work? Is she a priest? Probably a Shallyan. Maybe a Rhyanite?
P: No, though she does follow Ranald...
Dad: Oh. Well that's fine. Ranald is an part of the pantheon, and we accept everyone. Well is she a gardener then? Maybe a herbalist?
P: No, she is a wizard.
Mom: Oh, it must be that nice Amber wizard you met. What was her name?
P: No, she's not an amber, she's a Grey.
Mom: Oh. Oh dear.
Dad: Now honey, being a grey is perfectly fine. Remember we met the Bursar? She was quite kind, all she does is make sure people pay their taxes. Now, Panoramia, what does your grey specialize in?
Mathilde (suddenly appearing from shadow): Mostly murder, with some theft and spying to bide the time.
You've convinced me, I fucking ship it. Make it happen.
 
... said every other with one weird trick. These weren't just idiots who tried this.
Yeah, no. One weird trick is falling in love with your hypothesis and not considering what will happen if it proves false. A disturbingly common problem even in modern sciensce and the normal state of affairs in sciensce of days past.

What we are proposing is very much not it - the safety measures are sufficient to counter every possible way the things can go wrong (given the total amount of energy involved, barring the usual caveat of force majore such as a divine intervention).
 
Either way a part of me wonders what happens when stuff like Ice magic or divine lores are exposed to the snek juice but that's pretty much just academic anyway.
Well, for Ice magic, there's room for speculation. Consider the following:

1. The Lore of Ice has been practiced by the ice witches since their founding.
2. The ice witch tradition began when Khan Queen Miska swore herself to the Ancient Widow.
3. Miska's service of the Ancient Widow began with leading the Gospodars to Praag, which the Ancient Widow claimed to be trapped beneath.
4. Trapped beneath Praag is Arianka, one of the Gods of Law that act as counterparts to the Gods of Chaos.

So, if we take this to mean that the Ancient Widow of Kislev is in fact Arianka, the question becomes whether or not the Lores of the Law Gods work like the Lores of the Chaos Gods.
 
"Hey Algard 'we have a semi-stable suspension of something resembling all eight Winds coexisting without being Qaysh or Dhar- we've managed to separate Ulgu from said solution without it collapsing into Dhar and we think this is a promising avenue to investigate the hitherto unknown effects Winds can have on each other' do we have your sanction to pursue this?"

Do you honestly think we'll suffer censure for bringing up the possibility and opportunities afforded by this?

By the logic you're presenting Snake Juice might qualify on it's own for breaking the College's rules by virtue of being a suspension of something resembling multiple Winds. It sure has the possibility of leading in that direction. But you don't see people screaming about the legal consequences of researching it.

Agreed, If people are going to claim that the Ulgu tongs -> wind manipulation thing is super illegal and can't be done Snake juice is already there, but no one is contorting themselves into pretzels to exclude it as a research candidate.



And the tongs method absolutely falls under "experimenting with multiple winds".


So does Snake juice, like categorically on every level. The moment we found out it splits into the eight winds of magic we're experimenting with multiple winds. So I expect you to maintain your stance and put snake juice on indefinite hold until we've got permission right?
 
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Agreed, If people are going to claim that the Ulgu tongs -> wind manipulation thing is super illegal and can't be done Snake juice is already there, but no one is contorting themselves into pretzels to exclude it as a research candidate.

Snake juice isn't messing with other winds, though. It's categorically not a wind of magic.
 
Article:
Black Magisters do not have to have embraced the Chaos Gods, nor must they have begun studying the arts of Daemonology or Necromancy. All it takes is for them to intentionally and persistently experiment with more than one Wind of Magic at a time. These traitorous acts will earn the Magister the relentless hostility of his prior Order.


Not "use". Not "channel". Experiment.

Boney's WoG was in support of and an expansion of this quote, which is itself from a canonical Warhammer source.

And the tongs method absolutely falls under "experimenting with multiple winds".

And yes, there's a bunch of mitigating factors in our case. In point of fact, I do believe that Mathilde could do the actual experimentation safely.

But it's still on her to provide a convincing case to the Colleges - ideally beforehand, since asking for permission afterwards probably requires an even stronger standard of evidence.
I see your Warhamme canon and counter it with Divided Loyalties canon:
Actually Relevant Quest Canon said:
Articles 1-15 of The Articles Of Imperial Magic, written by Magnus the Pious.

1. The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire of which these Articles form a part; then to he who is rightfully elected Emperor of Sigmar's Holy Empire; then to the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic; then to the laws and ideals of their Order; then to the Patriarch of their Order; then to the authorities that each Magister may be required to serve in the course of his duties; then to other superiors within their Orders.

2. No Magister may obstruct in malice or for financial or political gain the rulings of the Emperor, nor may they seek to overthrow him for these reasons.

3. Every Magister of said Colleges must adhere to the laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire, regardless of the province, region, or city-state, just as any loyal citizen must, except that the Magisters alone shall be permitted to study magic and perform such spells for the good of the Empire.

4. The Colleges are free to study, document, practice, and experiment with the arcane forces of magic that are present in this world, provided they adhere to the restrictions laid down by Teclis of Ulthuan, keep the good of Sigmar's Holy Empire in their hearts and minds, and obey the Articles of this document.

5. The Colleges may bestow as they see fit upon all their own initiates full rights to study, document, practice, and experiment with the arcane forces of magic that are present in this world and also take apprentices to themselves to pass on such knowledge and wisdom as may be part of their Lore and for the good of the Empire
.

6. No Magister may cast a spell or enchantment outside of the theatre of war and in public view without first being requested to by the Emperor, the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire, or another legitimate employer as defined by the Articles of this document. All spells and enchantments cast without these permission may only be done so with and for demonstrably good reason.

7. No Magister may ever study the Forbidden Lores of the Daemonic Powers, nor the unholy ways of Necromancy, nor any other sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic. Any Magister found disregarding this Article is guilty of an Abominable Act and is both Heretic and Traitor and will be put to sword and fire immediately.

8. The Colleges must respond favourably to any reasonable request for specific service from any Elector of Sigmar's Holy Empire.

9. The Colleges must be ready to render service to the armies of the Emperor and the Electors of the Empire upon request, unless such service aids in the seceding of an Imperial province from the Empire, or unless such service is intended to cause overt harm to the Electoral System, or to the authority of the Emperor who resides upon Sigmar's Throne, or to the unity of purpose and identity that marks Sigmar's Holy Empire, as indeed it was so sorely afflicted throughout the dark centuries of the False Emperors.

10. The Colleges must grant upon request protection for all such diplomatic missions and any other tasks of defence or warfare as are required by the duly elected Emperor of Sigmar's Holy Empire.

11. All Magisters may expect to receive accommodation, benefits, respect, and fair treatment, as would befit any noble of Sigmar's Holy Empire, while in the employ of the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire.

12. Magisters are permitted to pursue agreements of employment with any persons or organisations: civil and religious, public and private, noble and mercantile, providing their employers are not enemies of Sigmar's Holy Empire or the people and that will not lead to the breaking of any of these Articles.

13. All Magisters are required to seek out magic users as may exist within the bounds of Sigmar's Holy Empire to ascertain their suitability to join one of the Orders of Magic, or else report them the Holy Orders of the Templars of Sigmar, or else destroy them if they prove to be of immediate and grave menace to Sigmar's People.

14. All Magisters are required to render such aid as is deemed necessary to the Holy Orders of the Templars of Sigmar, should said Templars provide satisfactory proof that the servant of malignancy they face is beyond their capacity to capture or destroy without magical means.

15. All Magisters are required to exert themselves to seek out and counter such destructive and anti-Imperial machinations, practices, peoples, and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter, but yet still serve the Daemon Gods or advance the corruption of Imperial citizens through any sorcerous or infernal means. This shall be the prime concern and purpose of the Colleges, their Orders and the Magisters belonging to them, and to fail in this duty is to render void all the Articles of this document and make obsolete their permission to practise arcane arts without hindrance.

I've helpfully bolded the relevant sections.
 
Snake juice isn't messing with other winds, though. It's categorically not a wind of magic.
Which is why when we exposed it to Ulgu it dissolved into all the Winds of Magic. It's might not inherently be all the winds, but its something that can incredibly easily segue into being about multiple Winds. This is not a technicality I want to hide behind after the fact.
 
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