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On the other hand, think of how much of a better symbol of the new Karak Eight Peaks that Belegar wants to make reforging it would be. He doesn't just want to restore the old hold, he wants to rebuild a new one, and Mathilde will ensure that it at least has blackjack.

I really don't like the idea of melting down something we know was stolen from a specific Karak. I feel like "Well sure they have Billy Bob Dwarfington's ancestral armor, but at least they're using it to make history" is acceptable, but stepping over the line to be like "YEEHAW let's melt that sucker down and make a fancy umgi butter knife!!!" Is kind of disrespectful, to my own sensibilities anyway haha.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Make no recommendation.
[X] [ARMOUR] Make no recommendation.
[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons
[X] [RUNE] No purchase.
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] Item to communicate with The We.

I do think that if we are able to set up another faction which is nominally aligned with Karak-Eight-Peaks to fight either the Skaven or Greenskins, it would be a huge boon for us (also, a possible topic for research papers). However, that does require setting up a means of communicating with them, which is where the item comes in. I would like to seem proactive if at all possible on this matter so that it looks like we planned things ahead. Makes the idea more appealing to the Dwarves.

I like the list of Library books here. Particularly the character trait of gathering romance books. I would note, however, that we may very well have to learn Brettonian and Tilean in order to read them. But once we do, we can get even more materials from them.

I have not been convinced by the arguments to get a runic weapon.

And I don't particularly feel that any of the Undumgi leaders would be a bad choice so I don't particularly care which specific one gets the role, and I don't really have a preference on the armor.
 
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[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] An item enchanted with Talk With Beast to give to the spiders (3 favors)
 
I really don't like the idea of melting down something we know was stolen from a specific Karak. I feel like "Well sure they have Billy Bob Dwarfington's ancestral armor, but at least they're using it to make history" is acceptable, but stepping over the line to be like "YEEHAW let's melt that sucker down and make a fancy umgi butter knife!!!" Is kind of disrespectful, to my own sensibilities anyway haha.

I'm not siding in any particular direction here, but we would be proposing this idea to Belegar, and he would have to make the decision. Also, I'm pretty sure the armor has enough Gromril to make a sword as well as other ornaments. I find it hard to believe plate armor can only provide enough material for a single sword.
 
Remember that Mathilde is part of the government of Karak Eight Peaks. Based on this logic, almost nothing is her business, as literally everything about the place is dwarf business in some way or other.

BoneyM has also confirmed that Mathilde will make recommendation directly to Belegar if appropriate, and we know Belegar is a radical pragmatist. He won't be offended. He might disagree, but I think he'll value honestly given advice.

Mathilde is an adviser, it's her job to advise her king, not to abdicate her responsibilities. He can choose to ignore her if he thinks she doesn't know what she's talking about, but not giving the advice at all is her just not doing her job.

Okay, it's not so much "not her business" as "she hasn't necessarily internalized all the information necessary to make an informed call".

How important is this armor to Karag Ankor? How pleased will they be if we give it back versus annoyed if we don't? Exactly what would it mean to morale to have it worn by an Ironbreaker or be reforged?

I don't know. I don't think Mathilde knows. These seem like very subtle matters of dwarven psychology, and given that it's not at the end of the day all that important an issue, I don't know why she needs to weigh in on it.
 
Analogy was for a dragon. Please do not mix LotR with it. We also are not on the epic journey, and don't have enough beard to be compared to Gandalf. We are court wizard, part of ruling counsil under the king. We are aiming to help with ruling and to solve mysteries. That is reality of situation.
The reality of the situation is that this particular king has deployed us to scout, sabotage and assasinate behind enemy lines multiple time to great effect, and during the reclamation campaign us assasinating enemy leadership was critical to sucess of several operations.

There is no reason for him not to deploy us in the future just because we now sit on the council. This is war, and we are good at it, so he will use us.

I fully expect that his first action during a major offensive would be
[Y] deploy Weber to soften the enemy before the attack

As we are not in the military, we will not be used as a field commander. But no matter where we are serve, we will still be used as a hero unit.
 
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how big was this dwarf, that you can make like 6 weapons (including a greatsword) from his armor
Dwarves average out around 4'8" IIRC. But plate armour comes with a lot more metal than most weapons, especially if you're talking axes, which require far less metal than swords or flails.
 
I really like Soizic but would like to do other stuff with her. In the "found our own knightly order" kinda way. We are a lady knight our last prospective liege disregarded and now we are down here kicking ass and mugging greenskins. She also has taken a peculiar path to knighthood. Let's enchant her up some shadowsteed spurs and blessed weapon Gauntlets and start the Shadow Knights of Karag Nar. Mhorn az Vengryn Karag Nar "the Shadowy Vengeance of Karag Nar...we should probably have a dwarf translate my Khazalid sucks.
Alternately, if you want Undumgi cavalry we probably do have enough money to pay a dwarf in Barak Varr to import some Brettonian chargers? Those are expensive but still probably less than a mastercrafted dwarven revolver each; we could import somewhere in the 20-50 range before running out of cash. Shadowsteed spurs would be cool but also cost Mathilde at least one action each to enchant and having one rider is no way to have a military unit. That would be more a curiosity than anything else; shadowsteeds have some disadvantages over flesh and blood mounts in combat, too; they're better for messengers or other long-distance transit than fighting.

Of course, if we wanted to be paying for the Karak's military expansion we probably should have been steward or external military advisor.
 
I could ask whether did You somehow missed vote we had few turns ago. It had rather explicit description of responsibilities. We are learning advisor. It will focus on solving mysteries noone have answer to and dealing with strange things. Whether Mathilde capabilities are it does not change the fact is NOT her job responsibility or focus to scout, sabotage of assasinate. And sure, she is great at doing it. But it does not change the fact that it is very explicitly not her job.

Her job is to deal with magical threats. As this is Warhammer, that should largely involve finding those threats and killing them before they do it to you first.

I don't actually agree with this. I think that repatriating the armor to its home Hold. and waiting in the queue for a turn or two longer for spare gromril to become available is just as good symbolically. Also, as people have pointed out, the first half of the vote are recommendations to our liege, not unilateral actions. If he thinks it's logistically necessary to reforge the armor to honor us appropriately, he'll do that.

According to BoneyM there is no queue for gromil. There never is any spare gromil. The only Gromil Mathilde will ever get is what she finds herself.

To an extent, yes, but the identification of those threats- or likely areas where they might be- is going to be primarily a job for the Karak spymaster. They point us to the problem and we go deal with it or provide them with the means to deal with it, and that's not actually something we'd necessarily need to be good at sneaking around to do. Meanwhile, the rest of the time we'll probably be pointed at less stealth-requiring stuff like the spiders or what-have-you.

Basically, in our current role we're a wizard first, and a sneak-thief second.

I don't believe that's the case. I expect that the internal military adviser will be looking for conventional military threats, as all of his employees are incapable of even perceiving magic. Runesmiths learn to use their magic resistance to detect magic, but he won't have any runesmiths under his control. Pretty much the only people who can find most magical threats that aren't in the process of going off are Mathilde and her staff, because they're the only people here with magical senses. Also, as many of those magical threats will live inside settlements that no one else can get inside.

There's a reason that Thorgrim has given up and thinks that the best the dwarves can do is go out with a bang, and why the previous dozen attempts to conquer Karak Eight peaks all failed. They don't have good answers to the many threats their enemies present to them, particularly their magic. That's why Mathilde and the precedent she sets is a potential game changer. You want to keep playing the dwarfs old game. A game that has been shown to have failed. We're here to do something new. To stop the dwarves just being reactive and enduring, but to go out and hit the enemy before they get the chance to strike.

That's what we should be doing here in microcosm. We shouldn't be sitting around waiting for magical disaster to strike and then work out how to resist or mitigate it. We should be going out, finding emergent magical threats and strangling them in the cradle. I feel that's the point of this entire experiment.

Analogy was for a dragon. Please do not mix LotR with it. We also are not on the epic journey, and don't have enough beard to be compared to Gandalf. We are court wizard, part of ruling counsil under the king. We are aiming to help with ruling and to solve mysteries. That is reality of situation.

I feel we're here to find magical threats and kill them before that threat materialises. We're a magical trouble shooter in the sense that we go out and find magical trouble before it find us and we shoot it. Or cut it up with a greatsword.
 
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[] [Rune] Bastard Sword
-[] 25 favour
[] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
So I have to ask, why vote to make the best possible sword but not for a shot at the metal for the truly best possible sword ?

It's Gromril, if I recall correctly.
Indid you do, sadly so often I don't.

I don't actually agree with this. I think that repatriating the armor to its home Hold and waiting in the queue for a turn or two longer for spare gromril to become available is just as good symbolically. Also, as people have pointed out, the first half of the vote are recommendations to our liege, not unilateral actions. If he thinks it's logistically necessary to reforge the armor to honor us appropriately, he'll do that.
Thing is there is no queue and no spare gromril anywhere, just situations like this were luck finds and hastly put to use one way or another, is to rare and precious for anything else.

And personaly I very worried that sending it way and making the sword win together, wich fells like signaling we don't want a gromril blade.
 
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Everybody, please make sure to vote for reusing the armor. Right now even giving it away back to the hold it came from is above using it for our sword, which will result in not using it to create a Gromril sword. That wouldn't be good.
Adhoc vote count started by chocolote12 on Oct 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM, finished with 787 posts and 120 votes.
 
I don't actually agree with this. I think that repatriating the armor to its home Hold and waiting in the queue for a turn or two longer for spare gromril to become available is just as good symbolically. Also, as people have pointed out, the first half of the vote are recommendations to our liege, not unilateral actions. If he thinks it's logistically necessary to reforge the armor to honor us appropriately, he'll do that.
Ah, but it's nowhere near as simple as "wait a turn or two for it to turn up". In fact, getting gromril in a timely manner was a very faint hope. It was always about finding some ourselves.

Lo and behold, Mathilde finds a chunk of it on the first turn.

Like I said, a significant part of the symbolism is that the sword is also the trophy to commemorate our victory.

Making friends with another hold can be done in many other ways. There will be other sets of armor found, for one.

But there's only ever one "first gromril found since the reconquest".
 
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Guys, I hate to keep being the voice of moderation, but can we tone down the library a little? I think we can take out 2 or 3 magic topics, and c'mon, we don't even read Brettonian or Tilean. You're just trying to become Queen of the Underground Women's Book Club. Good men died for that silver, and you're spending it on smut.
 
Okay, it's not so much "not her business" as "she hasn't necessarily internalized all the information necessary to make an informed call".

How important is this armor to Karag Ankor? How pleased will they be if we give it back versus annoyed if we don't? Exactly what would it mean to morale to have it worn by an Ironbreaker or be reforged?

I don't know. I don't think Mathilde knows. These seem like very subtle matters of dwarven psychology, and given that it's not at the end of the day all that important an issue, I don't know why she needs to weigh in on it.

She probably knows more about how important it would be to the potential human and halfling recipient, and as the outsider might propose something that its a good idea but he wouldn't come up with without an outside perspective. In general, an outside perspective is useful, even if it's underinformed or even mistaken, as it helps reveal unexamined assumptions.
 
[X] [SPIDER] Present all the options, including the fact that they do not seem to have a concept for lies, and make no recommendation. He's a radical devoted to his people, let him make the strategic choice.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be returned to the Hold it was stolen from, to build strong ties among the Karaz Ankor.
 
Dwarves average out around 4'8" IIRC. But plate armour comes with a lot more metal than most weapons, especially if you're talking axes, which require far less metal than swords or flails.
Unless you're talking extremely thin/low coverage breastplates and oversized swords at the same time, you can get multiple swords from just the breastplate of a suit of plate armour alone.
I don't believe that's the case. I expect that the internal military adviser will be looking for conventional military threats, as all of his employees are incapable of even perceiving magic. Runesmiths learn to use their magic resistance to detect magic, but he won't have any runesmiths under his control. Pretty much the only people who can find most magical threats that aren't in the process of going off are Mathilde and her staff, because they're the only people here with magical senses. Also, as many of those magical threats will live inside settlements that

There's a reason that Thorgrim has given up and thinks that the best the dwarves can do is go out with a bang, and why the previous dozen attempts to conquer Karak Eight peaks all failed. They don't have good answers to the many threats their enemies present to them, particularly their magic. That's why Mathilde and the precedent she sets is a potential game changer. You want to keep playing the dwarfs old game. A game that has been shown to have failed. We're here to do something new. To stop the dwarves just being reactive and enduring, but to go out and hit the enemy before they get the chance to strike.

That's what we should be doing here in microcosm. We shouldn't be sitting around waiting for magical disaster to strike and then work out how to resist or mitigate it. We should be going out, finding emergent magical threats and strangling them in the cradle. I feel that's the point of this entire experiment.
I think we just need to agree to disagree, here.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Oswald Oswaldson, Imperial veteran

Again, remember, the Armor vote needs to involve reforging it if we want to use it for our sword. It's probably the only Gromril we're ever going to have a legitimate reason to get our hands on, so let's not pass it up, especially when we're going to be making a twenty five favor sword.
 
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Alternately, if you want Undumgi cavalry we probably do have enough money to pay a dwarf in Barak Varr to import some Brettonian chargers? Those are expensive but still probably less than a mastercrafted dwarven revolver each; we could import somewhere in the 20-50 range before running out of cash. Shadowsteed spurs would be cool but also cost Mathilde at least one action each to enchant and having one rider is no way to have a military unit. That would be more a curiosity than anything else; shadowsteeds have some disadvantages over flesh and blood mounts in combat, too; they're better for messengers or other long-distance transit than fighting.

Of course, if we wanted to be paying for the Karak's military expansion we probably should have been steward or external military advisor.
I was under the impression Brettonians don't sell their horse stock, because they're well aware it's one of the few adavntages they have over the surrounding military powers, and they don't feel like being absorbed into someone else's polity.
 
But plate armour comes with a lot more metal than most weapons, especially if you're talking axes, which require far less metal than swords or flails.
~40 pounds for armor, and even heavy greatswords only go up to ~7 pounds. Combined with using wooden hafts for axes... yeah, I could see a set of armor being forged into eight weapons.

Still think pushing Belegar into giving us a shinier sword rather than maintaining relations with other dwarf holds is kinda shitty.
 
I like the list of Library books here. Particularly the character trait of gathering romance books. I would note, however, that we may very well have to learn Brettonian and Tilean in order to read them. But once we do, we can get even more materials from them.
The explicit intention when I wrote the vote was for the Brettonian and Tilean romance novels to be the reason Mathilde picks up those languages learning material for expanding her linguistic horizons.
 
~40 pounds for armor, and even heavy greatswords only go up to ~7 pounds. Combined with using wooden hafts for axes... yeah, I could see a set of armor being forged into eight weapons.

Still think pushing Belegar into giving us a shinier sword rather than maintaining relations with other dwarf holds is kinda shitty.

Remember that most of the recipients of those weapons would probably be other dwarf holds that actually sent troops. It should help relations with them.

It also sends a signal to show that Karak Eight Peaks pays its debts. Many good dwarves from those holds died to retake the Queen of the Silver Depths. I think showing that Belgar recognises that is arguably better for dwarf relations in general. Worse for the one specific hold that doesn't get its armour back, but better in general.
 
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Okay, it's not so much "not her business" as "she hasn't necessarily internalized all the information necessary to make an informed call".

How important is this armor to Karag Ankor? How pleased will they be if we give it back versus annoyed if we don't? Exactly what would it mean to morale to have it worn by an Ironbreaker or be reforged?

I don't know. I don't think Mathilde knows. These seem like very subtle matters of dwarven psychology, and given that it's not at the end of the day all that important an issue, I don't know why she needs to weigh in on it.

You can at least be sure Mathide knows, she has the intrigue to dissasemble psyches and I doubt she would have a hard time with dwarfs when she can figure out giant hive spider psychology.

Alternately, if you want Undumgi cavalry we probably do have enough money to pay a dwarf in Barak Varr to import some Brettonian chargers?
No we don't, Bretonian knights are almost as protective of their horse stock ass dwarves are of their runework.
 
~40 pounds for armor, and even heavy greatswords only go up to ~7 pounds. Combined with using wooden hafts for axes... yeah, I could see a set of armor being forged into eight weapons.

Still think pushing Belegar into giving us a shinier sword rather than maintaining relations with other dwarf holds is kinda shitty.
My hope is that if reforging does win, which it might not to be fair, that he takes some of those re-forgings and like a sensible king gifts them to Karak Izor, Karak Azul, Karak Norn and all the other Karak's that helped him out and saves the last one for Mathilde.
 
Not what I was getting at. On the campaign trail, in our former job in Stirland, and when it comes to our master, none of them involved the explicit job of 'be the person who pokes magical weirdness'. In those roles, we were a spy and sneaky person who used magic to enhance our sneakiness- and the same appears to be true for our master, from the little we've seen of him. Here, however, our role is first and foremost to be the authority on and deal with problems of a weird and mystical nature, not be the sneaky person who sneaks.

Or to put it another way: in the past we've been a stealth expert and spymaster who happened to use magic to enhance those roles, whereas now we're expected to be a magic expert and it just so happens that we're also good at stealth and being a spymaster. So while there will undoubtedly be times when being stealthy is ridiculously useful, it's not our primary role. Our job isn't to go out into the world and preemptively deal with or identify emerging threats, it's to look at the weird stuff and say 'yup, that green glowy stuff is evil, set fire to it'.
I mean, that's kind of one and the same when the current resident threat is Skaven underneath us that could launch an assault at pretty much anytime if they weren't so distracted. Being able to say 'The Skaven are moving in large amounts of Warpstone' or 'There's a Grey Seer* trying to get the three clans here to set aside their fighting and fuck up the Dwarfs' or that they do in fact have a Screaming Bell before they show up to the battlefield with it is a huge advantage. Being able to be informed ahead of time of what the issues we're facing and how to resolve them is at least as useful in a magical context when it involves Skaven as it is in a normal context.

I reiterate- Belegar knew we were a former spymaster, knew our magic plays heavily into being stealthy, knew how we liked to operate. And he hired us. At least wait until he hears our report on spying on the Skaven (which by your reasoning is entirely outside our mandate if I understand correctly) before dismissing it. You talked about letting the spymaster do it, but at the very least given our obvious skill in that field and our capacity to observe magic wouldn't collaborating on the issue in some way be the best way of resolving it? Discussing the issue with our peer is probably the best way to resolve it in the long run anyways and something I don't think any of us have a qualm with.

*Arguably that's a political threat rather than a magical one, but given her Windsage trait she could likely more easily identify a Grey Seer's presence than a Dwarf Ranger could.
 
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