Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
Valmond said:
Nothing can ever be changed because all the ideas have already been had.
got it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Considering there is a flying castle that's been floating around for a thousand years or more, and that Fozzrick's also additionaly made couple of flying towers that are still around somewhere in someone's custody, i don't believe flying platforms are the sort of new idea noone could've had before that you think it is.

EDIT: Like, the very fact that we can ask for these as potential reward is literally showing that these have always been within the capability of collegiate to make. They just never did because the amount of political/(academic?) will necessary to make it happen was never spent on it.
 
Last edited:
pucflek said:
Considering there is a flying castle that's been floating around for a thousand years or more, and that Fozzrick's also additionaly made couple of flying towers that are still around somewhere in someone's custody, i don't believe flying platforms are the sort of new idea noone could've had before that you think it is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean... The problem with that comparison is that we just literally did what you said they could do but wouldn't. Waystones were a thing that all races managed somehow, humans, elfs, dwarfs. Then they forgot. And we managed to get it working again after a few thousand years...
 
pucflek said:
Considering there is a flying castle that's been floating around for a thousand years or more, and that Fozzrick's also additionaly made couple of flying towers that are still around somewhere in someone's custody, i don't believe flying platforms are the sort of new idea noone could've had before that you think it is.

EDIT: Like, the very fact that we can ask for these as potential reward is literally showing that these have always been within the capability of collegiate to make. They just never did because the amount of political/(academic?) will necessary to make it happen was never spent on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Always? In the long and storied history of the Colleges of Magic? All 180 years of it?

They could have developed the ability ten years ago, they could have developed it just now since there are free Orbs, the point is the Colleges doesn't do the tired 'ancient marvels' shtick since it is not itself ancient.

There are a few exceptions, but they are all inherited from others like the Scrolls of Kadon and until a few minutes ago IC... the Orbs of Sorcery.
 
Tobtorp said:
I mean... The problem with that comparison is that we just literally did what you said they could do but wouldn't. Waystones were a thing that all races managed somehow, humans, elfs, dwarfs. Then they forgot. And we managed to get it working again after a few thousand years...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That is a fair cop, but considering its a valid ask for them to make it right now, i don't feel it holds much water. I edited as much into my post, but probably just after you replied.
 
Like, the actual boundaries we pushed, the things we have changed is that it is now known to Colleges that

1) Winds have different properties at the moment of inception than they do afterwards. This is pretty shattering
2) AV can be used to create Liminal Realm. Quite possibly this means that pumping pure magic is what actually makes it practical to make Instutition sized pocket dimensions, because god knows you would need thousands and thousands of years to make enough space for College with our method. Or very, very many slaughtered Apparitions.
3) That there is some third mysterious force that enforces Reality on..... Reality. Or maybe that force is part of the forces we already know. What is known that Winds aren't being made to obey reality in way that was thought of before.

The Orbs are nice practical demonstration of what we did, but while their creation was a mystery, their actual properties aren't anything that the colleges couldn't replicate otherwise (and indeed they do, regularily).
 
pucflek said:
That is a fair cop, but considering its a valid ask for them to make it right now, i don't feel it holds much water. I edited as much into my post, but probably just after you replied.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think it's quite "will" and more "why though?" Which seems the same but is different. We are asking all 8 colleges together to make this (which is already a big thing, they generally don't work that closely together). They might never saw a reason to ask themselves the question "could we?" Or maybe the people that asked got ignored because my before mentioned "why though?"
And I really can see some of the reason being "nah, that's expensive, and experimental. Let's just make another altar."
There is a hundred and one reason why no one has done it before. Some are big and some are small.

Edit: (I will say that I never liked boneys comment of "you can do everything with powerstones that a orb can do" mostly because that just feels like one of those things that would invalidate a bit of the setting, if everything can be done with powerstones and if powerstones only take a month to make, why then doesn't every empire army roam around with a luminark or similar..., but that's a personal pet peeve and not a big one for thSt.)
 
Last edited:
Tobtorp said:
I don't think it's quite "will" and more "why though?" Which seems the same but is different. We are asking all 8 colleges together to make this (which is already a big thing, they generally don't work that closely together). They might never saw a reason to ask themselves the question "could we?" Or maybe the people that asked got ignored because my before mentioned "why though?"
And I really can see some of the reason being "nah, that's expensive, and experimental. Let's just make another altar."
There is a hundred and one reason why no one has done it before. Some are big and some are small.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I would take this argument if there wasn't a teleporting set of towers that roam the Old World.

EDIT: The actual answer is probably that while the order nations of old world are more or less somehow helpless against high altitude flying firing platform, every other variety of forces of destruction has a flying unit that can drag it to the ground. From Wyvern through flock of Harpies and Bats to a goddamn Bloodthirster. So why bother putting something relatively slow up in the air where it is isolated from reinforcements that can't also fly. Its one of the reasons why flying vehicle wasn't something i wanted. Sure, they are unreachable if enemy has no flying units, but there are plenty of times when they do and then wat do.
 
Last edited:
pucflek said:
Like, the actual boundaries we pushed, the things we have changed is that it is now known to Colleges that

1) Winds have different properties at the moment of inception than they do afterwards. This is pretty shattering
2) AV can be used to create Liminal Realm. Quite possibly this means that pumping pure magic is what actually makes it practical to make Instutition sized pocket dimensions, because god knows you would need thousands and thousands of years to make enough space for College with our method. Or very, very many slaughtered Apparitions.
3) That there is some third mysterious force that enforces Reality on..... Reality. Or maybe that force is part of the forces we already know. What is known that Winds aren't being made to obey reality in way that was thought of before.

The Orbs are nice practical demonstration of what we did, but while their creation was a mystery, their actual properties aren't anything that the colleges couldn't replicate otherwise (and indeed they do, regularily).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Colleges are simultaneously military procurement arm of the state and research institute and those things are always in conflict, they do not know everything they can do because they will not have taken the time to do so. Who knows that efficiencies of enchantment they might discover while making an airship? Certainly not them, they have never made an airship.
 
pucflek said:
The Orbs of Sorcery do nothing an Array of Powerstones could not.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Colleges seem to feel that the marginal utility of knowing how to make them in conjunction with everything else is somewhere in the vicinity of 2-4 Imperial Army deployments worth, despite the rather hazardous harvesting method they'll have to use. The Orbs are considered a strategic asset worth individually tracking.

In all likelihood, the array of power stones is a kludge put together with significant drawbacks, though where precisely it falls on the Chiselhands spectrum is unknown.


Even if we go by purely logistical benefits where nothing actually special is gained, we just turned thirty two plus wizard months to build the engines for a full college array of battle altars into nine plus harvesting time. That may actually be more critical to the Empire than any sexy wunderwaffen.
 
consequences said:
The Colleges seem to feel that the marginal utility of knowing how to make them in conjunction with everything else is somewhere in the vicinity of 2-4 Imperial Army deployments worth, despite the rather hazardous harvesting method they'll have to use. The Orbs are considered a strategic asset worth individually tracking.

In all likelihood, the array of power stones is a kludge put together with significant drawbacks, though where precisely it falls on the Chiselhands spectrum is unknown.


Even if we go by purely logistical benefits where nothing actually special is gained, we just turned thirty two plus wizard months to build the engines for a full college array of battle altars into nine plus harvesting time. That may actually be more critical to the Empire than any sexy wunderwaffen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I've went over it but it is the principle that allows their creation, rather than the orbs themselves, that is actually the earth shattering academic bomb that Mathilde has unleashed. Well that and you know, one power stone is 5 favour, multiply that by at least 4, then multiply by 8 and you have 160 favours you just dropped in their laps. IIRC LM for half a year was 10 or 15. So sure. It helps. But it still does not change the core fact that they don't do anything the colleges could not actually do. Now what they do with the two nuggets of information we just released is something quite else.
 
Last edited:
pucflek said:
I've went over it but it is the principle that allows their creation, rather than the orbs themselves, that is actually the earth shattering academic bomb that Mathilde has unleashed. Well that and you know, one power stone is 5 favour, multiply that by at least 4, then multiply by 8 and you have 160 favours you just dropped in their laps. So sure. It helps. But it still does not change the core fact that they don't do anything the colleges could not actually do. Now what they do with the two nuggets of information we just released is something quite else.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Boney said:
Each of them* is now completely occupied with exploring their Winds under conditions that are normally always needed elsewhere
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*the heads of the Colleges.

That sure looks like Orbs are significant strategic assets.

pucflek said:
EDIT: The actual answer is probably that while the order nations of old world are more or less somehow helpless against high altitude flying firing platform, every other variety of forces of destruction has a flying unit that can drag it to the ground. From Wyvern through flock of Harpies and Bats to a goddamn Bloodthirster. So why bother putting something relatively slow up in the air where it is isolated from reinforcements that can't also fly. Its one of the reasons why flying vehicle wasn't something i wanted. Sure, they are unreachable if enemy has no flying units, but there are plenty of times when they do and then wat do.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Elsbeth Von Draken on her dragon: *looks at harpies and wyverns* Helpless you say? :V
 
Last edited:
Admiral: since when can you make airships?
Dragomas: Since few decades ago, the paper on flight enchantments saw some moderate circulation.
Admiral: Why have you not made us any airships?
Dragomas: Nobody asked us to, we're busy.
Admiral: Get me some airships.
Dragomas: I'll need a signature from the treasury, but otherwise sure.

Sometimes it is just that simple.
 
Last edited:
So there's a pretty easy way to square this circle, right? It's a matter of DL canon by Word of Boney that anything an Orb of Sorcery can do, an array of Powerstones can do. But as anyone who has ever has to engineer anything non-trivial knows, building something that relies on one main thing (engine, motor, program, whatever) is much easier than building something that has to rely on an array of lesser things, because you don't need to worry about making sure everything is in sync or ensure that if one of them fails it doesn't severely damage the others as it does so. This preserves the niche for Orbs of Sorcery as being significant assets and preferable to the array of lesser Powerstones when you can get them, without leaning too heavily on the "ooo it's a cool magical doodad that's completely unable to be equalled" trope that gets dumped on the Warhammer setting like someone broke the cap on their salt shaker.
 
pucflek said:
Sure, they are unreachable if enemy has no flying units, but there are plenty of times when they do and then wat do.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Cannon and/or magic at them from aboard the bote until they go away? It's kinda pretty much the same as when they're flying above you, except this time you can chase them. Or run away from them.
 
I've always viewed it as Algard's opinion that an array of power stones is better, but Algard is a master enchanter. Getting the output of an Orb from an array of power stones is probably quite easy for him. Getting a similar output for another enchanter is probably trickier, and there's all sorts of issues such as efficiency or preventing the system from overloading that adds complexity that most people wouldn't want to deal with.

So yes, in optimal conditions, in the hands of a skilled enchanter, there's probably no difference. But wizards don't always get to operate in optimal conditions, and an Orb is easier and more convenient if you have one.
 
Yeah, like the empire doesn't have regular flying units (sometimes you get a hero with a gryphon or pegasus) but they still dealt with plenty Of flying units having polities... How? Probably how the empire deals with anything else, shoot at it until it stops being a problem.
 
Tobtorp said:
Yeah, like the empire doesn't have regular flying units (sometimes you get a hero with a gryphon or pegasus) but they still dealt with plenty Of flying units having polities... How? Probably how the empire deals with anything else, shoot at it until it stops being a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Literally how Gustav defeated a mountain that produces a river of magic blood, way back in the purge.

"Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder"
 
Empire has wizards, occasional flying hero unit, but yeah, mostly they probably just rely on massive amounts of gun (or crossbow/ballista).
Most(but not all) flying things will eventualy come down from the sky to be a threat.
 
Also we already know there theres a reliable anti-air enchantment because we have it on our tower of doom, so I'd be surprised if we don't get a variant of that for an airship.
 
Valmond said:
Admiral: since when can you make airships?
Dragomas: Since few decads ago, the paper on flight enchantments saw some moderate circulation.
Admiral: Why have you not made us any airships?
Dragomas: Nobody wasked us to, we're busy.
Admiral: Get me some airships.
Dragomas: I'll need a signature from the treasury, but otherwise sure.

Sometimes it is just that simple.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then admiral sees build and upkeep costs on this and decides "Nah, I'd better have ten more common ships and a hundred common cannons built instead".
 
pucflek said:
I've went over it but it is the principle that allows their creation, rather than the orbs themselves, that is actually the earth shattering academic bomb that Mathilde has unleashed. Well that and you know, one power stone is 5 favour, multiply that by at least 4, then multiply by 8 and you have 160 favours you just dropped in their laps. IIRC LM for half a year was 10 or 15. So sure. It helps. But it still does not change the core fact that they don't do anything the colleges could not actually do. Now what they do with the two nuggets of information we just released is something quite else.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Let me try to understand if I get your argument straight. Something that you just claimed quinduples the value of a major strategic resource is not significant. When tides of war have changed with a 10% increase in efficiency in a single weapon type.

As long as gathering the Aethyric Vitae takes less than 4 times the effort of making the powerstones and array required to power stuff, the logistical breakthrough is insane. Wars are typically won by logistic and communication breakthroughs, not superweapons that alter the laws conflict. There is, like, one conflict I can think of that ended via superweapon that altered the laws of engangement (the nuke) and even then its kind of arguable if the nuke truly made a difference, and even if it did, it caused a less bloody conflict rather than changing who the victor would be.

Even guns, initially, were superweapons only because it was much, much easier to train a large amount of people in their use. Bows were far, far superior than the early guns, but you could have a gun regiment faster and easier than you had a single bowman. That is how the initial sucky guns changed the face of wars, logistics, not by allowing armies to do something they couldn't. I see a very similar logistical increase with Orb manufacturing here, as long as AV gathering does not prove to be absurdly work intensive.
 
Last edited:
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The Empire is not exactly a stranger to impractical ships—one of their ships is about 40% cannon, and I mean that in the singular—it's just the one cannon.

Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean it's goofy, should capsize the moment it encounters a wave larger than a ripple, and should tear itself apart upon firing the cannon - but if that cannon hits another ship at the waterline, the other ship is also probably going down.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top