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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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hugo239111 said:
I understand Brettonia rejected being a member of the Waystone project because they weren't chosen to host it.
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They did not in any sense reject being project members. It'd be more correct to say that we haven't yet asked them to join, because they made their price clear before we even asked: come to them with results and/or helping with the Iron Orcs situation.

This is not rejection: asides from Hatalath, who came to us in a social action for free due to hosting the Project in Laurelorn, Mathilde's had to spend actions just recruiting every individual. Some of those joined right away (Cadaeth because she straight up said she was willing to when telling us the upsides of Laurelorn, Aksel because we had the Father side of the Coin), some of them needed negotiation (the Lights and House Tindomiel both had rather freeform favor-for-favor trading, with some of them being more cumbersome than others), and some of them needed straight-up favors for them (Thorek wanted either pressure on Imperial dwarfs or political support regarding the Runesmiths Guild and we gave him both because they weren't particularly difficult; Paranoth wanted help knowing what was up in Gryphon Wood, and that also coincidentally got us Niedzwenka and Zlata).

Now that we have a working waystone model, they may well join without us needing to go help with the Iron Orcs thing. Although I feel like some of us may prefer going on that mini-adventure rather than not doing so...
 
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Parabola said:
Now that we have a working waystone model, they may well join without us needing to go help with the Iron Orcs thing. Although I feel like some of us may prefer going on that mini-adventure rather than not doing so...
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I want to do this so bad. Not just because I think it will maximise our 'currency' for favor trading (Father+Iron Orcs+Results=???) or because I think Brettonia is the perfect partner for reclaiming nexuses, but just on a character level.

I mean, here's this big bad problem that Brettonia can't deal with, and Mathilde can. A murderous walking disaster that requires stealth, speed and amazing windsight to deal with. Brettonia doesn't have that, Mathilde explicitly trained for it. She's made her name on helping other nations help each other, on being the big sudden good to deal with the long term bad, on compassion. And guys...
Boney said:
"Good intentions have a way of fading with distance," Schermilde replies, her smile a little strained. "Do think it over."
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Guys, we cannot let that be the last word.
 
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AsuraAtlas said:
Guys, we cannot let that be the last word.
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That was specifically a response to Mathilde's promise that Bretonnia would see the benefits from the Waystone project even if they didn't host it. As such it will be more than sufficiently answered when new Waystones start rolling out in their territory, which I'm pretty sure nobody opposes, though admittedly they are going to have to wait in line behind places like Kislev (which notably also isn't hosting the project, but has a much more pressing need).

Going above and beyond to also solve a problem that they only even asked us to solve after the conversation in question (at the time it was presented as more of a "here's something Waystones would be helpful for stopping" situation; after we chose to base the project elsewhere, a later conversation implied that addressing it more directly could be another way to secure their participation) would certainly put an exclamation mark on that particular point, but it's hardly necessary for a basic refutation.
 
Wiadi said:
That was specifically a response to Mathilde's promise that Bretonnia would see the benefits from the Waystone project even if they didn't host it. As such it will be more than sufficiently answered when new Waystones start rolling out in their territory, which I'm pretty sure nobody opposes, though admittedly they are going to have to wait in line behind places like Kislev (which notably also isn't hosting the project, but has a much more pressing need).

Going above and beyond to also solve a problem that they only even asked us to solve after the conversation in question (at the time it was presented as more of a "here's something Waystones would be helpful for stopping" situation; after we chose to base the project elsewhere, a later conversation implied that addressing it more directly could be another way to secure their participation) would certainly put an exclamation mark on that particular point, but it's hardly necessary for a basic refutation.
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I can't imagine anyone involved with the Waystone Project being happy with putting waystones in Bretonnia when there's any amount of their own territory that doesn't have waystone coverage yet. Not without Bretonnia joining the project or a standout reason like adding in a third route for magic to get form the Empire to Ulthuan.
 
shepsquared said:
I can't imagine anyone involved with the Waystone Project being happy with putting waystones in Bretonnia when there's any amount of their own territory that doesn't have waystone coverage yet. Not without Bretonnia joining the project or a standout reason like adding in a third route for magic to get form the Empire to Ulthuan.
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I mean, yes, which is why some of us (myself included) are expecting Bretonnia to be very likely to sign on to the project for free once it starts churning out tangible results. Because "for free" actually means "for a spot in the queue for Waystones somewhere higher than 'when we get around to it.'"
 
Wiadi said:
it's hardly necessary for a basic refutation.
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The attitude in the thread has very much been mercurial, in what we can get from Brettonia in return for Waystones. And to be clear I support that! I absolutely think we should get our efforts worth out of Brettonia.

But if we return after several years, from a conversation where they spoke that frankly about self-interested cynicism, where they spoke at length on the monsters they can't defend themselves against but that we can, with nothing but "we got it without you so pay up?" With no regard for the rest of the conversation, or the problems we left them to deal with on their own?

Then no, I don't think that's a basic refutation at all. I think she was absolutely right, and our good intentions withered quite a lot.
 
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shepsquared said:
I can't imagine anyone involved with the Waystone Project being happy with putting waystones in Bretonnia when there's any amount of their own territory that doesn't have waystone coverage yet. Not without Bretonnia joining the project or a standout reason like adding in a third route for magic to get form the Empire to Ulthuan.
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Why would they be unhappy? Obviously Laurelorn would be very peeved if Bretonnia got waystones before them, but I don't think anyone is proposing that. Most of the other members would be annoyed too. But once we've gotten the ball rolling for the Laurelorn, the Empire, and Kislev, it should be easy enough to set it up in Bretonnia. Boney mentioned that there could be concessions from Bretonnia involved, because waystones are great.

AsuraAtlas said:
The attitude in the thread has very much been mercurial, in what we can get from Brettonia in return for waystones. And to be clear I support that! I absolutely think we should get our efforts worth out of Brettonia.

But if we return after several years, from a conversation where they spoke that frankly about self-interested cynicism, where they spoke at length on the monsters they can't defend themselves against but that we can, with nothing but "we got it without you so pay up?" With no regard for the rest of the conversation, or the problems we left them to deal with on their own?

Then no, I don't think that's a basic refutation at all. I think she was absolutely right, and our good intentions withered quite a lot.
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Schermilde is a duchess. She's not some absolute moral agent and she shouldn't be treated that way either. She's right that good intentions fade with distance, but that's just a basic fact of life. And asking for payment to build waystones in Bretonnia is perfectly normal. It isn't immoral to expect payment for that sort of thing. And it's boring besides to act like some benevolent selfless angel. Ulthuan payed up. Besides, at this stage we probably wouldn't be dealing with the Duchy of Carcasonne, but rather the Kingdom of Bretonnia. This is something that affects the whole realm and is something that the Fay Enchantress would keep a close eye on.
 
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Bretonnia has its own magical tradition.
We figure out way stones that do not need runes/can be made with runes only, everyone can start making their own waystones without needing to tax the resources of the project.
 
MrHobbit said:
Why would they be unhappy? Obviously Laurelorn would be very peeved if Bretonnia got waystones before them, but I don't think anyone is proposing that. Most of the other members would be annoyed too. But once we've gotten the ball rolling for the Laurelorn, the Empire, and Kislev, it should be easy enough to set it up in Bretonnia. Boney mentioned that there could be concessions from Bretonnia involved, because waystones are great.
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Because Bretonnia is not currently in the project and a lot of people have been thoroughly disinterested in doing the thing that would have gotten them into the project. And we could get concessions form them, but it makes the whole 'good intentions' line very true, because then it goes from 'co-operation between nations' to 'we never brought you in, so pay up'.
 
AsuraAtlas said:
The attitude in the thread has very much been mercurial, in what we can get from Brettonia in return for Waystones. And to be clear I support that! I absolutely think we should get our efforts worth out of Brettonia.

But if we return after several years, from a conversation where they spoke that frankly about self-interested cynicism, where they spoke at length on the monsters they can't defend themselves against but that we can, with nothing but "we got it without you so pay up?" With no regard for the rest of the conversation, or the problems we left them to deal with on their own?

Then no, I don't think that's a basic refutation at all. I think she was absolutely right, and our good intentions withered quite a lot.
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To be clear, I'm also firmly against trying to gouge them for the Waystones - I think participation in the project should be entirely sufficient, provided they have any insight of note to offer, which I'd be comfortably willing to bet they do. At which point it's not "good intentions fading with distance," it's them getting the same output (Waystones) for the same input (participation in the project) as would have been already in play were they hosting us.
 
shepsquared said:
Because Bretonnia is not currently in the project and a lot of people have been thoroughly disinterested in doing the thing that would have gotten them into the project. And we could get concessions form them, but it makes the whole 'good intentions' line very true, because then it goes from 'co-operation between nations' to 'we never brought you in, so pay up'.
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...literally nobody in-universe thinks this way. Nobody paused for even a second to wonder if they were exploiting Ulthuan when they showed up and threw around offers of gold for access to the secrets. Schermilde is a duchess. Her concern is about getting waystones. The idea that Bretonnia wouldn't need to pay for waystones if the Project wasn't based in Carcassonne would not even cross her mind. What she was concerned about was the Project just forgetting about Bretonnia.

Wiadi said:
To be clear, I'm also firmly against trying to gouge them for the Waystones - I think participation in the project should be entirely sufficient, provided they have any insight of note to offer, which I'd be comfortably willing to bet they do. At which point it's not "good intentions fading with distance," it's them getting the same output (Waystones) for the same input (participation in the project) as would have been already in play were they hosting us.
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Why would Bretonnia be so upset about paying in gold or action rather than secrets? What makes Bretonnia's position so different to Ulthuan?

I absolutely want to get Bretonnia involved in the Project, but that's because I want to read a Prophetess, or maybe even the Fay Enchantress herself! This... moralist outrage is just... baseless. Bretonnia isn't a smol oppressed peasant republic. It is a kingdom, one of the dominant powers of the continent. I am struggling to understand what these positions come from. Asking for Payday from Bretonnia is perfectly fine. I'd rather read Cooperation, but Payday doesn't impugn Mathilde's moral character, let alone that of the voters.

Valmond said:
Bretonnia has its own magical tradition.
We figure out way stones that do not need runes/can be made with runes only, everyone can start making their own waystones without needing to tax the resources of the project.
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Eh. The rune involved is pretty simple and I'd bet that Prophetesses can make the Golden Age Storage. The capstone is also pretty quick to make and Bretonnia has greater connections to Ulthuan. It won't really be taxing for the Project itself to deploy waystones in Bretonnia. It'll just take an action to get things going.
 
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MrHobbit said:
Why would Bretonnia be so upset about paying in gold or action rather than secrets? What makes Bretonnia's position so different to Ulthuan?

I absolutely want to get Bretonnia involved in the Project, but that's because I want to read a Prophetess, or maybe even the Fay Enchantress herself! This... moralist outrage is just... baseless. Bretonnia isn't a smol oppressed peasant republic. It is a kingdom, one of the dominant powers of the continent. I am struggling to understand what these positions come from. Asking for Payday from Bretonnia is perfectly fine. I'd rather read Cooperation, but Payday doesn't impugn Mathilde's moral character, let alone that of the voters.
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Eh, I mean, I don't think there's anything morally objectionable to them paying in gold instead of secrets, I just want secrets much more than I want gold. And I think demanding both would be excessive.
 
Wiadi said:
To be clear, I'm also firmly against trying to gouge them for the Waystones - I think participation in the project should be entirely sufficient, provided they have any insight of note to offer, which I'd be comfortably willing to bet they do. At which point it's not "good intentions fading with distance," it's them getting the same output (Waystones) for the same input (participation in the project) as would have been already in play were they hosting us.
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What participation is left for them at this point? Crusading against lost nexuses? Making their own variant with little input on the collective work?

MrHobbit said:
...literally nobody in-universe thinks this way. Nobody paused for even a second to wonder if they were exploiting Ulthuan when they showed up and threw around offers of gold for access to the secrets. Schermilde is a duchess. Her concern is about getting waystones. The idea that Bretonnia wouldn't need to pay for waystones if the Project wasn't based in Carcassonne would not even cross her mind. What she was concerned about was the Project just forgetting about Bretonnia.
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Ulthuan showed up as the de facto experts on waystones that everyone was expecting to have to fight to keep what we'd done, or give up the whole thing for other concessions. We got very lucky that Eltharion was more interested in what might benefit his slice of Ulthuan than anything else.

And they have to think like that when it comes to politics. The possibility of having to fight Bretonnia again is part of the political considerations of the Empire, and everyone on the project is sharing secrets so deep that they'd practically demand war if stolen or misused. And we're basically at the end of the main project - making the base waystone and rolling it out, to the point where people don't want to go to Ulthuan because we're so close.

So what does Bretonnia have to offer a basically completed project? What do they have to offer every other nation that signed that treaty? Because that's the scenario they're faced with once the project is done.
 
Wiadi said:
Eh, I mean, I don't think there's anything morally objectionable to them paying in gold instead of secrets, I just want secrets much more than I want gold. And I think demanding both would be excessive.
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I misread your post, I thought you were agreeing with what Asura was saying. I also hadn't intended that second paragraph to be specific to you it was more in general. Apologies.

Though at this point things are rather different. The Bohka Palace Accords form a rather powerful block. Theoretically Bretonnia would be receiving access to Ulthuan's secrets too. I wouldn't be shocked if, depending on how long we wait to bring them in, they end up paying to become a signatory of the Accords. I don't think Bretonnia would feel bad about that. I'm sure they would rather get in for "free", but that's just how the cookie crumbles.

shepsquared said:
What participation is left for them at this point? Crusading against lost nexuses? Making their own variant with little input on the collective work?

Ulthuan showed up as the de facto experts on waystones that everyone was expecting to have to fight to keep what we'd done, or give up the whole thing for other concessions. We got very lucky that Eltharion was more interested in what might benefit his slice of Ulthuan than anything else.

And they have to think like that when it comes to politics. The possibility of having to fight Bretonnia again is part of the political considerations of the Empire, and everyone on the project is sharing secrets so deep that they'd practically demand war if stolen or misused. And we're basically at the end of the main project - making the base waystone and rolling it out, to the point where people don't want to go to Ulthuan because we're so close.

So what does Bretonnia have to offer a basically completed project? What do they have to offer every other nation that signed that treaty? Because that's the scenario they're faced with once the project is done.
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There is creating more tributary variants, dealing with Athel Loren, and asking Ulthuan for information about how to create nexuses. Bretonnia also probably knows a bit about Nehekhara's waystone network. Prophetesses can probably make the storage too.

Payday. It is called Payday. The vote obviously won't be the exact same layout, but the fundamental essence of the deal isn't going to change. Both Bretonnia and Ulthuan want in on the fruit of the Waystone Project. Bretonnia would thus be willing to pay up to get waystones, as Boney said. That's if we don't agree to bring them into the Project, which I would be unhappy with but would understand (and be both impressed/surprised about ngl).

And no nobody's sharing secrets that would end up in war if they shared them. The only person in the Project who might make that mistake is Zlata and she's a journeywoman and wouldn't have the secrets to spark a war. Thorek, Hatalath, Elrisse, ect are all competent enough to keep their secrets to themselves. They all showed up expecting to try to steal secrets, share none, and end up without any waystones.
 
shepsquared said:
What participation is left for them at this point? Crusading against lost nexuses? Making their own variant with little input on the collective work?
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I mean, considering the Waystone design we ended up picking, I think we are almost certainly going to want to design a "quick and dirty" alternative at some point for mass deployment to areas that don't need the full hammer of "This Is All The Good Shit." If Bretonnia joins up before we do, then they should be able to contribute to developing components that will suit that design, even if they can't offer any more fundamental insights or improvements on our current top-end - and I'm not by any means certain that they can't.
 
I don't have a position on Brettonia negotiations. I'd like to take them for all they're worth. I'd like to not feel like an asshole when we do so.

But these Iron Orks are killing people. They are growing in number every year. Unlike normally, the nation they plague can't deal with them. Mathilde can deal with them. She's spent her whole career solving problems that seem unsolvable. And I am not willing to ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist, or let it boil over to become a huge event disaster. For what? Because she's too busy taking training and research actions, because we didn't end up needing them?

At the risk of sounding too partisan, Fuck That. We're going to end up on the opposite sides of a negotiating table soon enough, and- I'd like to not feel like an asshole when we do so.

shepsquared said:
What participation is left for them at this point? Crusading against lost nexuses?

...

So what does Bretonnia have to offer a basically completed project? What do they have to offer every other nation that signed that treaty? Because that's the scenario they're faced with once the project is done.
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Yeah, crusading against lost nexuses is exactly what I expect them to provide. Retaking any nexus would be extremely hard, It would be moderately hard to get any of our member states to provide a full army, and Brettonia has a very big population of Big Fighty Boys.

I'm looking forward to it almost as much as the rollout, honestly. The mini adventure battles should be a fun break from the research heavy parts of the project so far.
 
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AsuraAtlas said:
I don't have a position on Brettonia negotiations. I'd like to take them for all they're worth. I'd like to not feel like an asshole when we do so.

But these Iron Orks that are killing people. They are growing in number every year. Unlike normally, the nation they plague can't deal with them. Mathilde can deal with them. She's spent her whole career solving problems that seem unsolvable. And I am not willing to ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist, or let it boil over to become a huge event disaster. For what? Because she's too busy taking training and research actions, because we didn't end up needing them?

At the risk of sounding too partisan, Fuck That. We're going to end up on the opposite sides of a negotiating table soon enough, and- I'd like to not feel like an asshole when we do so.
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I also misread you, sorry for that. I can't tell if you arguing in character or out of character, so I'll try to address both. There's plenty of evils all across the world that could be dealt with by tactical application of Mathilde. There's no point in feeling bad that all those problems aren't being dealt with because Mathilde isn't resolving them. It sucks for the peasants, but that's feudalism in general. One of the reasons why Carcassonne reached out to host the Project in the first place was because they hoped it could help to deal with the Iron Orcs, and it would! The people suffering wouldn't even know about it if Mathilde decided not to interfere. Vote for the Iron Orcs because you think the updates would be cool to read, not because you feel obligated.
 
MrHobbit said:
Vote for the Iron Orcs because you think the updates would be cool to read, not because you feel obligated.
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I am. It's my favorite part of Mathilde's character and it's arc, which is why I've expounded upon it more than the other reasons I stated before. She's the rando that shows up and does her part to help fix what no one else has been able to, the redeemer of optimists, and I'd like to read more of that.
 
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Parabola said:
...One thing I've always wondered, incidentally: are the Binding Scrolls of Kadon replicable using principles he left behind? Or is there a limited quantity of them?
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Storm of Magic is ambiguous on the matter, perhaps deliberately so. In one place it says that 'the magics used to bind them are incredibly rare and difficult to duplicate', and in another it describes the Scrolls as 'a vanishing resource, for Kadon has been presumed dead for many thousands of years, and no wizard since has quite managed to equal his aptitude'. That can be very easily read as irreplaceable, or it could mean 'just' outrageously difficult to replicate. Presumably someone at the very highest level of understanding of the Wind of Beasts is not the sort to happily spend their life churning out scrolls.

hugo239111 said:
@Boney

Really a question for you but maybe it's been previously answered I haven't seen it if so.

I understand Brettonia rejected being a member of the Waystone project because they weren't chosen to host it. (a very petty and believable move for the quasi-French) however have any thought been given their way since we have started seeing success? I know we are essentially blanketing Stirland in the waystones to direct to nexuses and we are starting to crack how to make what I have been calling "ideal" waystones in my head. A great deal of this story or at least the purchasing/item side of it, is focused on the favor trading that happens invisibly in every culture known to man. It has been shown that even the elves and dwarves participate in it and these favors do cross country and species lines. We did it ourselves as a way to recruit for the project to the Light and Jade orders. At this point I think we have proven enough success to get a foot in the door, and do a little trading. Considering who canon Lady of the Lake is, I have to assume that they have a decent understanding of them, when we first met them to decide position of the project they made sure to mention the Iron orcs who only they have seen. (we know they are real obviously).

The big question all this is leading up to is could we horse trade for their participation in this project? Say having a highly successful and extremely knowledgeable grey wizard with a penchant for understanding greenskin culture and recently got to know more about chaos look into it for them?
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When the Project was still spooling up, you could horse trade for their participation. With Waystones being deployed, you set a price for their involvement, and their access to the fruits of the labours they did not contribute to. Right now the Iron Orcs only need to be swung at for the pure joy of it, for even more leverage during those negotiations, or if there's something personal you want to extract from the Bretonnians.
 
Boney said:
When the Project was still spooling up, you could horse trade for their participation. With Waystones being deployed, you set a price for their involvement, and their access to the fruits of the labours they did not contribute to. Right now the Iron Orcs only need to be swung at for the pure joy of it, for even more leverage during those negotiations, or if there's something personal you want to extract from the Bretonnians.
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What would it look like? I presume the horse trading would have been part of the Iron Orc AP, but are the new reversed negotiations big enough to warrant their own AP? If so, could we do the Iron Orcs after for the separate personal reward?
 
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Asides from how it'd help out Carcassonne quite a bit and get us more leverage out of negotiations or possibly getting something personal (...library arrangement with the Lady's Cult?), there is something joyful about taking a swing at orcs. It's the sort of activity that everyone, orcs included, should indulge in more.

Jokes aside, I do wanna help them. Chaos Orcs are an unholy mixture that I don't think the world needs any more of, and unlike other problems Mathilde's basically the only human around with good enough magesight and mobility and stealth to tackle this.
 
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