Boney, it's been years now, why would to tempt me so?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Finland
Humans may be young, in experienced and lack much of the training elven wizards have.
But even with the little training they have, humans are doing things that are weird and wonderful and horrifying all at the same time.
At some level, you have to be impressed.
If for nothing else, then for the fact that they manage to survive, and retain something resembling sanity.
But even with the little training they have, humans are doing things that are weird and wonderful and horrifying all at the same time.
At some level, you have to be impressed.
If for nothing else, then for the fact that they manage to survive, and retain something resembling sanity.
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Human magic is to Elf magic what Skaven technology is to Human and Dwarf technology: it shouldn't even work, whoever created it must have been insane, using it is near suicidally risky, and even if it does work you'll probably be exposed to very unpleasant effects just from using it, BUT when it works it's Super Effective and does really crazy things that even you with all your superior knowledge of advanced [magic/technology] couldn't even hope to replicate. And for that, you really have to grudgingly respect them.*
*or would have, if Dwarfs weren't culturally opposed to be impressed by most non-dwarf things in general (and a lot of dwarf things too), and if most humans (at least in the Empire) didn't know that the Skaven exist in the first place.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
IIRC they were always mostly divine casters, if we use that terminology. They can just do things with divine power that look pretty close to some arcane stuff.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
One thing that drives me a little nuts is how little focus there is on Elf's who are just some guys (In the source books and what not). People get caught up a bit in focusing on Elf's high society. Yes no shit a Prince might be condescending.
But if your chatting with Elvish Bob from the inner kingdoms who carefully tended to wheat fields for the last two hundred years. It's gonna be a pretty different experience. Probably a bit awkward cause they never spoke to a human before, but I'd imagine they hit it off with another human farmer when talking over similar topics.
But if your chatting with Elvish Bob from the inner kingdoms who carefully tended to wheat fields for the last two hundred years. It's gonna be a pretty different experience. Probably a bit awkward cause they never spoke to a human before, but I'd imagine they hit it off with another human farmer when talking over similar topics.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
Or Panoramia.
"Magically enhancing crop yields and improving arable land? For an entire Kingdom. Oh yes, I have some thoughts to share…"
- Pronouns
- She/Her
tbf from all acounts at least Saphery does already do that. At least on the estates of the nobles and their tennents.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Kind of reminds me of that one comment Kragg made shortly after Mathilde mugged Mork. "As long as she doesn't jump into any godly fights for a while she should be fine, so I totally expect her to do it again by the end of the week." If it's crazy and it works, then it's still fucking crazy, but you do you.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Thinking back to the Drachenfels talk ten or so pages back, I'm suddenly struck to wonder how well it would work if you took and just... made the plot holes part of the story. Particularly in the context of an RPG writeup where it's all meant to be plot hooks anyways.
IE: "It is spoken in hushed whispers the Great Enchanter is a necromancer from the very dawn of the world, though any scholar of repute would know this to be impossible." Every setting inconsistency is brought up as a rumor or tale of what he is and can do, and how that actually works and fits with his (presumably very real) statblock is left as an exercise to the reader.
Sort of like the old adage about asking a scientist of classical aerodynamics how a bumblebee flies. (Before that conundrum was solved, anyways) "According to all known laws of magic and history, Drachenfels is impossible, but Drachenfels is here doing his thing anyways, and making that your problem."
Maybe there's a story that fits it together all neatly. Maybe the Great Enchanter stuck his hand in to the timey-wimeyness that was the Coming of Chaos and pulled out the ability to retcon history in his favor. Whatever it is, he's not saying, and you have more immediate problems.
IE: "It is spoken in hushed whispers the Great Enchanter is a necromancer from the very dawn of the world, though any scholar of repute would know this to be impossible." Every setting inconsistency is brought up as a rumor or tale of what he is and can do, and how that actually works and fits with his (presumably very real) statblock is left as an exercise to the reader.
Sort of like the old adage about asking a scientist of classical aerodynamics how a bumblebee flies. (Before that conundrum was solved, anyways) "According to all known laws of magic and history, Drachenfels is impossible, but Drachenfels is here doing his thing anyways, and making that your problem."
Maybe there's a story that fits it together all neatly. Maybe the Great Enchanter stuck his hand in to the timey-wimeyness that was the Coming of Chaos and pulled out the ability to retcon history in his favor. Whatever it is, he's not saying, and you have more immediate problems.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You don't understand. It's Prince/esses all the way down. That isn't Farmer Bob. That's Prince Bob of Durum Valley, and he is legally required to attend at least three snobbish parties every season. Elvish mono-culture is very important.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
A LARP project I was working on a few years ago that sadly ended up being nonviable involved a society that made extremely high use of magic to create raw materials essentially ex nihilo, with resulting strange effects on culture. One of them was that, legally, everyone was nobility, so everyone had theoretical title to a fief which they ruled, though of course they had a suzerain and their suzerain had a suzerain and so on and so forth. I got to use the word "subinfeudated" a lot. It was great.You don't understand. It's Prince/esses all the way down. That isn't Farmer Bob. That's Prince Bob of Durum Valley, and he is legally required to attend at least three snobbish parties every season. Elvish mono-culture is very important.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
I've actually put a lot of thought into this when making my High Elf Mage characters in the current WHF campaign I'm in. Growing food in Saphery is gonna be way different than say other inner kingdoms. And growing food in outer kingdoms is gonna be way different than the inner kingdoms. The land is already plenty magical no matter where you go. So the question becomes what fields are considered so important that they can have a mage spend their time with it?
There is tons of little fun details you can think about since the land is very magical. But I'm someone who is a massive nerd about animal herding and animal husbandry in history. So what kind of animal would High Elfs enjoy interacting with and probably put a ton of work into making it a animal they can use for a bunch of things? My terrible answer I now inflict on the world is... Parrots. They live for absolutely ever and you can teach them a lot through sheer persistence. They may not by as cool as hawks. But if you consistently work with grey parrots you can teach them even more than a Raven.
So imagine a village that uses hoard of parrots to eat insects off their produce. They keep them in a loft in the top of their house like people used to do with doves.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
From all accounts they actually have more arable land than they can actually effectively farm. It's a real 'problem'. Ulthuan has basically everything in surplus that a kingdom might want except elves. But despite damage from some wars they have thousands of years of built up infrastructure. Every farm is very close to automatic at this point leading to a farmer verse noble ratio that the Empire could never even dream of.
And even the farmers are basically Nobles by Empire standards. Many 'farms' are just going to be walking though a orchard picking fruit in easy reach and despite that many farms aren't harvested.
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- Location
- Leeds
Ridiculously high productivity and everyone is nobility?
Sounds like you invented memeic medieval poland.
Just Preferential Treatment
- Location
- Greece
It's been a while since I wrote anything, either here or on my own quest, mostly because of personal issues, but I had an idea, so let's try and see if I still can at least make an omake.
Prince Mandred Holswig-Schliestein, prince of the Empire of Man, and Apprentice of the Bright Order, looked at his fretting Master, Lady Magister Geburah, nicknamed "Sigmar's judgement" in some military circles and, once again, wondered who was truly the master in that relationship, the awe-inspiring warrior who has killed more enemies of the empire than any other person (except perhaps for his godmother, if only by the technicality of using a superweapon), or the little kid who was barely capable of defeating a single orc in combat, but whose every word seemed to still the room.
"Master Geburah." The prince interrupted the lesson. He had a feeling most Apprentices would not be allowed to so casually interrupt their masters. Then again, he wouldn't know. He did not spend much time with regular Apprentices anyway. But he suspected. He also knew that this kind of thing never applied to him. Maybe it was how his Master rolled, for all he knew, but as usual, he suspected otherwise. He has been suspecting a lot of things lately, even since he learned about the actual most common reading of his Doom was. People around him, even his own mother, were too accommodating, too free with praises, and too stingy with chastisements, even in areas he knew for a fact he was inadequate in. No, more than that, people would often blame themselves for his own inadequacies. His whole life he had spent like this, but after observing a little bit how the world outside his castle walls operated, he was starting to wonder if this was not natural. He was, after all, the Emperor's son.
"I wanted to ask... am I really talented in this? Any of this? The fighting, the magic, the doing anything? Or is this all just preferential treatment?"
"Of course you..."
"Please. You are my Master. I want you to be honest with me. I will bear the truth, even if it is ugly."
Lady Magister Geburah calmed herself down, with the meditations the Bright order had taught her to keep the fire in check. Most people would just ignore the prince's request and assuage his doubts. It was probably the wise choice. But damn it, no matter how much she meditated, she could not ignore a sincere request for honesty. Regardless of everything, it was not what her heart told her.
And Bright Order lessons or not, she did not reach the rank of Lady Magister by ignoring what her heart told her. So she should give the kid honesty. Nevertheless, she also didn't reach that rank without considering things through. Emotions were the signs, but logic was the crown. She should phrase things nicely, but still be completely honest. No, scratch that, if she were to phrase things too nicely, the prince would suspect she was lying. So she should aim to be somewhat blunt, while not hurting his feelings too much, all the while being completely honest.
Ok. That was a lot. For most people. But she was chosen for this job because she was not like most people.
"Just preferential treatment? Do you think talent itself is not, to an extent, preferential treatment? Do you think the fact you had the best tutors since birth didn't give you an advantage over everyone else? Do you think that eating better didn't make you bigger and stronger than the average apprentice of the Order, who has been born a peasant? People will tell you you are stronger because of your noble blood or favor of gods, but really, I have seen the children of Burghers and I am pretty sure it's the diet. Do you think the free time you have to study and learn and train and practice instead of working in the fields is not talent? The answer to your question is tricky, because you are talented and it is preferential treatment, and the two things are not easy to distinguish."
"Then... is it just? Maybe if another child had what I had, then they'd be better at being me than I am..."
Geburah was glad the kid was worried about justice. That would make a good emperor. Still, that was a tricky question to answer."Just? Is it just that the whole fate of our Order depends on how you'd turn out, which is, to an extent, up to luck? That we'd be hunted or exalted, based solely on how you'd be remembered in history? Is it just that the lives of countless people depend on your choices? On whether you'll be more like Dieter or Magnus? On the other hand, Is it just that you'll have to face tougher dilemmas than the vast majority of people because you'll be, if not the Emperor, at the very least an Elector Count? That you'll constantly carry huge weights of the choices you made and their consequences in your soul? That you'll face greater danger in life, simply because of who your father is?"
Mandred fell silent, contemplative.
"I do not know the answer to any of that either. But I do sincerely believe that helping to make a better ruler for the Empire, and a better symbol for wizards will bring more justice to the world. Whatever everyone else may think, I am teaching you because I believe in this. And that means I have to believe in you. And a lot of people believe the same thing."
Mandred was trying to process all this. In retrospect, some of this stuff may have been too heavy.
"I think I will conclude the lesson here today. This is perhaps more important to think about. But to answer your question, no, it's not just preferential treatment. Instead, maybe you should think of it as... just preferential treatment."
Just preferential treatment
Prince Mandred Holswig-Schliestein, prince of the Empire of Man, and Apprentice of the Bright Order, looked at his fretting Master, Lady Magister Geburah, nicknamed "Sigmar's judgement" in some military circles and, once again, wondered who was truly the master in that relationship, the awe-inspiring warrior who has killed more enemies of the empire than any other person (except perhaps for his godmother, if only by the technicality of using a superweapon), or the little kid who was barely capable of defeating a single orc in combat, but whose every word seemed to still the room.
"Master Geburah." The prince interrupted the lesson. He had a feeling most Apprentices would not be allowed to so casually interrupt their masters. Then again, he wouldn't know. He did not spend much time with regular Apprentices anyway. But he suspected. He also knew that this kind of thing never applied to him. Maybe it was how his Master rolled, for all he knew, but as usual, he suspected otherwise. He has been suspecting a lot of things lately, even since he learned about the actual most common reading of his Doom was. People around him, even his own mother, were too accommodating, too free with praises, and too stingy with chastisements, even in areas he knew for a fact he was inadequate in. No, more than that, people would often blame themselves for his own inadequacies. His whole life he had spent like this, but after observing a little bit how the world outside his castle walls operated, he was starting to wonder if this was not natural. He was, after all, the Emperor's son.
"I wanted to ask... am I really talented in this? Any of this? The fighting, the magic, the doing anything? Or is this all just preferential treatment?"
"Of course you..."
"Please. You are my Master. I want you to be honest with me. I will bear the truth, even if it is ugly."
Lady Magister Geburah calmed herself down, with the meditations the Bright order had taught her to keep the fire in check. Most people would just ignore the prince's request and assuage his doubts. It was probably the wise choice. But damn it, no matter how much she meditated, she could not ignore a sincere request for honesty. Regardless of everything, it was not what her heart told her.
And Bright Order lessons or not, she did not reach the rank of Lady Magister by ignoring what her heart told her. So she should give the kid honesty. Nevertheless, she also didn't reach that rank without considering things through. Emotions were the signs, but logic was the crown. She should phrase things nicely, but still be completely honest. No, scratch that, if she were to phrase things too nicely, the prince would suspect she was lying. So she should aim to be somewhat blunt, while not hurting his feelings too much, all the while being completely honest.
Ok. That was a lot. For most people. But she was chosen for this job because she was not like most people.
"Just preferential treatment? Do you think talent itself is not, to an extent, preferential treatment? Do you think the fact you had the best tutors since birth didn't give you an advantage over everyone else? Do you think that eating better didn't make you bigger and stronger than the average apprentice of the Order, who has been born a peasant? People will tell you you are stronger because of your noble blood or favor of gods, but really, I have seen the children of Burghers and I am pretty sure it's the diet. Do you think the free time you have to study and learn and train and practice instead of working in the fields is not talent? The answer to your question is tricky, because you are talented and it is preferential treatment, and the two things are not easy to distinguish."
"Then... is it just? Maybe if another child had what I had, then they'd be better at being me than I am..."
Geburah was glad the kid was worried about justice. That would make a good emperor. Still, that was a tricky question to answer."Just? Is it just that the whole fate of our Order depends on how you'd turn out, which is, to an extent, up to luck? That we'd be hunted or exalted, based solely on how you'd be remembered in history? Is it just that the lives of countless people depend on your choices? On whether you'll be more like Dieter or Magnus? On the other hand, Is it just that you'll have to face tougher dilemmas than the vast majority of people because you'll be, if not the Emperor, at the very least an Elector Count? That you'll constantly carry huge weights of the choices you made and their consequences in your soul? That you'll face greater danger in life, simply because of who your father is?"
Mandred fell silent, contemplative.
"I do not know the answer to any of that either. But I do sincerely believe that helping to make a better ruler for the Empire, and a better symbol for wizards will bring more justice to the world. Whatever everyone else may think, I am teaching you because I believe in this. And that means I have to believe in you. And a lot of people believe the same thing."
Mandred was trying to process all this. In retrospect, some of this stuff may have been too heavy.
"I think I will conclude the lesson here today. This is perhaps more important to think about. But to answer your question, no, it's not just preferential treatment. Instead, maybe you should think of it as... just preferential treatment."
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Actually no, I'm fully with you on this and it's sort of always sat kind of oddly with me how... weird people get about elves at times.
I frequently ask myself what is it about this quest that makes it so awesome and beautiful. I think a big part of it is your passion and knowledgeability, and also how much you love and care about source material and making things makes sense. Just like this.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
From everything we've been told, the interpretation of "usness and themness" is one of the fundamental pivot point between the elven paradigm and the human one. We, as humans, literally cannot grok the elven take on ingroup/outgroup dynamics because if we did we would be a weird flavour of elves and not humans.
We can construct philosophies where the elven viewpoint "makes sense". And because humans are very adaptable we can understand said philosophies, but I chose grok very deliberately in my first paragraph.
I get the impression that it's, uh, not exactly an unusual way of looking at things if you happen to NOT be the terribly advantaged person facing an empire or polity that was not intent on outright conquest ala Rome but nonetheless smug in their essentially well-deserved arrogance over achievements. Chinese-empire fantasy equivalents tend to get the same treatment.
Like, you do see depictions of China and Egypt and Persia in this vein that seem to have trickled down from earlier accounts and there's this nasty blend of admiration and resentment because yeah with some distance they were amazing but they didn't exactly make for comfortable neighbors. And sure, you better believe that a fair number of people from those cultures were smug and regarded barbarians as just that, but the reality is most of the people in those polities were just ordinary people and didn't think much of outsiders one way or another.
I could make modern comparisons but they're not especially relevant. In any case, elves tend to get that hat, even though in their LOTR source material it's not exactly well-earned outside maybe Elrond and the dude had a lot on his plate.
Unfortunately, I think it gets generalized from 'those arrogant x aristocrats/bureaucrats' as a stereotype that is oftentimes true to 'those arrogant x' as a stereotype verging on accepted fact with no context or subtlety when people should know better.
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fishsicles
ate a calculator to gain its power
- Location
- Alexander Horned Earth
- Pronouns
- They/Them
...is omake Mandred getting taught by the Warhammer version of the Red Mist?
- Location
- Greece
You figured out what series I have been binging lately -_- .
That said, while it influenced my thinking that directionwise, it was more because the sephirot fit (fire and judgement) than a direct reference on the character.
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MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
On that topic... I actually got Mathilde in a Fixer fit before. Lady Grey is a pretty good color name.
Mathilde in a more modern fit. She has purple tones as it fits that tint fog has in large cities at night. Done by Wolv. Main inspiration for this piece was from Library of Ruina and a direct ref for how she looks is Jeong's Office.
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New Mega-Project Idea - Convince Teclis to train a regiment of kittens.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
10 Kraggs, one for each Kingdom of Ulthuan that dares defy him.
Mr Whiskers, Naggaroth's Bane.