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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Redshirt Army said:
My personal preference for our ask for the Gold College would be something like:

[ ] Gold, for an agreement to allow tutoring from other Colleges on purely mundane skills relevant to leadership, to the degree that doing so won't interfere with the base magical paradigm.

That would, for example, include some Grey College tutoring on diplomacy and intrigue. It also more generally pushes the colleges to cooperate on Mandred's tutelage, which fits Mathilde's established credentials as someone who wants to promote inter-collegiate cooperation (she founded a whole branch college about it!).

This would also make it easier for Mathilde to personally supply some of those intrigue lessons, and thus be able to stick an oar in and check on how things are progressing - both for Ranald reasons and as a more general ability to poke at our godson.

@Boney is an ask like this reasonable?
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i feel like, that's one of those things that would happen naturally regardless? Regardless of his wind that get's picked in the end, he's the son of the Emperour. He's always going to have every single possible teacher at hand. And given the "Everyone needs this to go well", part that all the collages are naturally walking into with this, it means they are most likely going to ask for help with matters they think they need one in. Assuming a baseline level of competence from the Golds.
 
MrHobbit said:
Yes, but there are a lot more things that could be asked for than a single spell.
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Well, then it's good that we aren't asking for a single spell, but to examine available material on a different yet compatible magical paradigm, and see if they can take away applicable lessons or inspiration to create spells. The way I see it, it'll almost certainly be a roll. And "a single new spell" will be one of the possible results on it. And I won't be too sad if it gets rolled, because it's still an addition to an already solid corpus, but I'll be even happier if a better result comes out, and I want to take this shot.

Absolute worst thing that can happen, barring unrelated untimely miscast death, is nothing. Which is basically "Bright on merit".
 
GrimTheMad said:
Most wizards choose their college based off of who first introduced them to magic- Mathilde herself chose Ulgu because the person who brought her to the Colleges was a Grey. Now she's an LM inventing her own spells.
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Mathilde's idea of time management is that every other six months she has enough extra energy to do a seventh month's worth of work while mitigating the long term effects on her body.

I don't think she'd have gotten so far if she weren't possessed by a weird and tireless hivemind.
 
The jades have the issue of their own highly religious bent. It's what drove Panormia out and I have no doubt that the dominant faction would want to induct Mandred, which could easily clash with Mathilde and Heidi's desire to raise him as a Ranaldite.

I'm also not sure they're the best fit for Mandred personally.
 
Looking back at what we were asked to do:
Boney said:
Right for the boy, not just for you or for me
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We were asked what was right for Mandred:

Boney said:
As for the kid, I've only ever encountered one more suited for the manipulation of elemental Chamon than he is. An Elector Count that can harden his own armour and empower his own blade is one that will go down in history."
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The Gold argument is about him and what he can do with Good magic. It talks about how his personality is a good match for elemental Chamon and how that magic is a good fit for him.

Gehenna is the only Lord/Lady Magister who says that going to her College could make Mandred great. They're experts here. If she believe that and the otherwise don't that means a lot.

The fact that the Golds sent Gehenna to represent them also tells us something about them. They're happy to have their public face to the other Colleges be her, an atypical Good Mage. It's a message both externally and internally that heterodoxy is acceptable within their College.
Boney said:
He didn't strike me as a nurturer," interjects the Bright College's representative.

"Not all are," the Professor replies, unruffled. "But much of what we do first requires getting the cooperation of what needs nurturing. I believe him well suited for that aspect of Ghyran."
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The Jade College is, to my mind, rather unconvincing about his fit for /the College and doesn't mention at all about how the magic is good for him.

Boney said:
I'll say what everyone else has been dancing around," he says. "The boy is a warrior. I've trained full-grown men with less affinity for war than what he already posssesses. And nobody can deny that when the Army of Reikland and the Army of the Empire march to war, it is most often the Bright Wizards that march with them
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The Bright College does talk about Mandred's talents, but then obfuscates. All the Colleges are primarily military institutions, so Mandred being a warrior doesn't mean as much as he suggests. He doesn't justify why Mandted being a warrior makes him a particularly good fit for the Bright College. He also doesn't say why learning Bright magic is good for Mandred.

Something else I'd like to consider is whether the Bright College is a good fit for the chosen of Ranald.It doesn't teach subtly and the skills he'll learn there won't incentivise solving problems with cleverness rather than violence.

By contrast, the Gold College's focus on rationality and thought is much more compliance with that. Their information gathering and mental augmentation magic, whether cast personally or via magic items are much more supportive of Ranaldite approaches than the Jades or particularly the Brights.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
Preexisting suitability will give you a leg up to begin with, but there's no indication that it defines how good you can be with a wind. It raises the floor, not the ceiling.
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We did see examples of wizards unsuited to parts of their Wind (Johann, Hubert) with notable results, but as long as this is not specifically called out, I think it's safe to assume Mandred does not suffer from incompatibility with any given Wind.
(He is unsuited to mystical Azyr, not particularly talented but disciplined enough for the Lights and the Amethysts, idk if Gehenna not remarking on mystical Chamon is a sign or not, and that's all I remember about his limitations)
 
Alratan said:
Something else I'd like to consider is whether the Bright College is a good fit for the chosen of Ranald.It doesn't teach subtly and the skills he'll learn there won't incentivise solving problems with cleverness rather than violence.

By contrast, the Gold College's focus on rationality and thought is much more compliance with that. Their information gathering and mental augmentation magic, whether cast personally or via magic items are much more supportive of Ranaldite approaches than the Jades or particularly the Brights.
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The Brights teach their wizards restraint above all. Aqshy is already so good at laying waste and spreading out of control that the most important trait of a good Bright wizard is to have it under control.

Golds, on the other hand, are noted as rigid and inflexible; Feldmann, iirc, got where he is both despite and because he is not particularly powerful as a wizard. For a Ranaldite, rigidity is worse than temper imo.
 
GrimTheMad said:
I think people generally put too much weight on the idea of preexisting suitability to a wind.

The central paradigm of the Colleges is all about molding your mind and soul to better channel your wind- if suitability doesn't exist, it will be created. If it does exist, it still needs to be expanded.

Most wizards choose their college based off of who first introduced them to magic- Mathilde herself chose Ulgu because the person who brought her to the Colleges was a Grey. Now she's an LM inventing her own spells.

Preexisting suitability will give you a leg up to begin with, but there's no indication that it defines how good you can be with a wind. It raises the floor, not the ceiling.
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Agreed.
I think it's more important that he actually enjoy the wind, and what it provides him.
And i think Mandred would love what Bright college will teach him, he will want to be good at it, he will want to learn, and be willing to spend the effort to get past the bare minimum.
Sure, he might be good at elemental chamon, and not complete suck at rest of it, but i'm not sure he would love it the way he would Aqshy.

As for Jades, they're good wizards, effective, they could do plenty for him and he could do plenty with their teachings.
But i just don't see the connection there for him specifically.
 
Giving the Brights incentive to investigate the Indic Paradigm of Aqshy would also have a knock on effect on the college, allowing more space for atypical Aqshy users. (And worldbuilding :V)

And as for the Bright college not having anyone with a suitable paradigm, Mathilde's own preference in Ulgu was initially Shadow, but eventually became Fog. And her perception of the wind went from "Confusion" to "Smug Secretiveness"

It probably not that uncommon for an established Magister's paradigm to change as they grow.
 
Funny how mathilde's reputation is of a superb diplomat when it has become a meme how bad her diplomacy Stat is.
 
pucflek said:
My brother in Christ I said that Elemental aqshy is bound to be the same because fire is fire. How the hell do you think a slann relic fires beams that are recognizable to Egrimm as Shem's burning gaze despite being from depths of Lustria. Inds magical philosophy may have different viewpoint on mystical side of aqshy but elemental is bound to be similar because fire is fire.

Also if you think anyone is talking about ind spell books you are the one arguing straw man at least with me. But as I understand it, most other people were not talking about spells either, but about the underlying approach to that specific wind of magic.
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The elves were taught magic by the Slann. Nehekhara learned at least from the Lizardmen of Zlatlan. The Light College is built off of traditions from Nehekhara and from the elves. Of course there would be magical commonality between the Colleges and the Lizardmen. Ind as far as we know was not taught magic by the Slann.

Ind does not use elemental Aqshy. Of course Mandred will be learning the Imperial uses of it. This does not actually address my point. The Indic paradigm is built off of millennia of research into using Aqshy to inspire will. The Imperial paradigm is built off of millennia of research to make things catch on fire. There is only so much people from the latter tradition can reverse-engineer the former tradition from all of 1 point of books.

I will quote myself. "As it stands, Mathilde could learn Indic Ulgu spells without it being very strenuous. That's the point of spells. But if she learned the Indic Ulgu paradigm, she would have to invent spells to use it." What part of this do you not understand? Theory and praxis are two different things. Stop ignoring that. There is no point in learning a new magic paradigm if you don't have the spells to apply it.

Somic said:
Well, then it's good that we aren't asking for a single spell, but to examine available material on a different yet compatible magical paradigm, and see if they can take away applicable lessons or inspiration to create spells. The way I see it, it'll almost certainly be a roll. And "a single new spell" will be one of the possible results on it. And I won't be too sad if it gets rolled, because it's still an addition to an already solid corpus, but I'll be even happier if a better result comes out, and I want to take this shot.

Absolute worst thing that can happen, barring unrelated untimely miscast death, is nothing. Which is basically "Bright on merit".
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The Brights almost certainly were the ones to have translated it in the first place. Using the tutelage of a future Grand Prince as a way to get a few books the Brights already have is just a complete waste of time.
 
Alratan said:
He doesn't justify why Mandted being a warrior makes him a particularly good fit for the Bright College.
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Because it's self evident that the Bright college is best for warriors. Yes, every college trains for war—but only the Bright College trains it's wizards as Soldiers. Grey's are assassins, diplomats, and spies. Golds are alchemists, metalsmiths, and engineers. Jade's are farmers.

But Brights? They are soldiers, champions, and commanders. Sure, you get outliers—Adela is a mechanic, but even then her main focus is the creation of new weapons. But on the whole, the Brights teach the art of war as part of the main curriculum. For everyone else, it's optional.
 
Personally I'm for the greys because he fits mathildes way of grey magic pretty well and the brights because they are the most martial order and he's the most martial little boy we know.
 
Eisenhelm said:
Funny how mathilde's reputation is of a superb diplomat when it has become a meme how bad her diplomacy Stat is.
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Mathilde is bad in the "talk people into giving her what she wants" which is diplomacy stat.
She is, however, awesome at figuring out what people want, which is intrigue and learning, and then delivering it them until they are just too embarrassed to say no to whatever we ask of them.
 
Honestly I want him to go with the college that might help his realtionship with Ranald the most, but I also don't want him to go grey.

The way I see it, Mannfred likes the use of cleverness for helping others as opposed to getting himself out of trouble. A common element among all the Ranald stories this update was that of Ranald acting in the benefit of others, aiding Verena or Ulric, or even helping Heidi. As the update puts it, Cleverness as a sword instead of a shield.

With that in mind, as well as several other factors... I'm actually inclined towards the brights.

Hear me out.

As others have mentioned, the Brights put a great deal of emphasis on restraint, for obvious reasons - Fire Burns, and Overconfidence is a Slow and Insidious Killer.

I think that kind of mindset, with the right prompting, can indeed allow him to tap into that kind of cleverness that he's not necessarily inclined to via intrigue. Of knowing burning exactly the right thing, at exactly the right moment, to succeed with a minimal amount of effort on his part. Of knowing exactly when to stoke a persons passions to either ready them for war, but also to make his opponents so confident they fail to notice that they're playing into his hands.

Would the greys be more appropriate? Maybe? but like... I'm not invested in Apprentice Mannfred, and he feels like a person who if he didn't vibe with the Grey Order, REALLY wouldn't vibe with it.

I dunno, I just feel like overall, the brights gel the most with his main focuses, teach the importance of self control, and can still allow for some potential flexibility in who he is. At least thats how I see it, maybe I'm wrong, I don't post a lot.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Because it's self evident that the Bright college is best for warriors. Yes, every college trains for war—but only the Bright College trains it's wizards as Soldiers. Grey's are assassins, diplomats, and spies. Golds are alchemists, metalsmiths, and engineers. Jade's are farmers.

But Brights? They are soldiers, champions, and commanders. Sure, you get outliers—Adela is a mechanic, but even then her main focus is the creation of new weapons. But on the whole, the Brights teach the art of war as part of the main curriculum. For everyone else, it's optional.
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Thyrus Gormann: Bright Wizards! What is your Profession?
Bright Wizards everywhere: HAU! HAU! HAU!


Wiki quote to back up the meme:

Duties & Contracts

While many pyromancers go on to become Imperial Battle Wizards, having the talents and knowledge to lend considerable assistance on the battlefield, Bright Wizards do more than just fight. In peacetime, pyromancers are often employed to act as guardians for nobles, diplomats, and very wealthy merchants who are passing through very dangerous parts of the Empire.

Pyromancers frequently train with military detachments and, as a result, they are the most readily recognised of all Magisters. But they do not simply learn how to use their abilities to support troops as most other Magisters do, they also learn how to fight as frontline troops -- such is their aggressive and passionate nature.
 
Eisenhelm said:
Funny how mathilde's reputation is of a superb diplomat when it has become a meme how bad her diplomacy Stat is.
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Valmond said:
Mathilde is bad in the "talk people into giving her what she wants" which is diplomacy stat.
She is, however, awesome at figuring out what people want, which is intrigue and learning, and then delivering it them until they are just too embarrassed to say no to whatever we ask of them.
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Mathilde is actually very good at Diplomacy now. 18 is easily high enough to take an advisory role in places that aren't Stirland.

But it is very funny to imagine the reactions of people who knew 6 martial 9 diplo apprentice Mathilde to her reputation of diplomatic and martial excellence.


"This is the same Mathilde, yes? Are we sure she wasn't killed and replaced by a weirdly helpful vampire?"
 
pucflek said:
My brother in Christ I said that Elemental aqshy is bound to be the same because fire is fire. How the hell do you think a slann relic fires beams that are recognizable to Egrimm as Shem's burning gaze despite being from depths of Lustria. Inds magical philosophy may have different viewpoint on mystical side of aqshy but elemental is bound to be similar because fire is fire.

Also if you think anyone is talking about ind spell books you are the one arguing straw man at least with me. But as I understand it, most other people were not talking about spells either, but about the underlying approach to that specific wind of magic.
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Mostly I am thinking about Indic brighst seem to consellors for melancollia, I imagine they use the same spells as Empire but likely figured out how to use them in psychology rather than just battlefield. I expect their books will deal with how bright magic applies and also more mundane psychology methods as well.

And Bright Mandred consoling soldiers that has lost friend in the battle aftermath is a powerfull image and kind of thing that gains soldiers eternel loyality.
 
Somic said:
The Brights teach their wizards restraint above all. Aqshy is already so good at laying waste and spreading out of control that the most important trait of a good Bright wizard is to have it under control.

Golds, on the other hand, are noted as rigid and inflexible; Feldmann, iirc, got where he is both despite and because he is not particularly powerful as a wizard. For a Ranaldite, rigidity is worse than temper imo.
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I'm not sure that the patron deity of theft, lies, gambling and revolution has much interest in restraint as a guiding principle either.

In any case; the Bright College's symbol is a key not a lock for a reason. They're about unleashing furious violence at the right target, not about keeping it restrained for its own sake.

Magistes of the Gold College can become physically stiff, but they're the wielders of the Wind of transformation, of the process of one substance becoming another , both physically and metaphysically.

Mathidle mentioned stereotypes of Gold Wizards being mental inflexible and we know two Gold Magister and two Lord/Ladies of rbat College, and none of them are. They have no canon arcane marks with mental effects. Someone taught one of their paradigms seems unlikely to develop it spontaneous.

Being mentally inflexible seems like something that a College of alchemists would have relatively few problems with.
 
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Tasoli said:
Mostly I am thinking about Indic brighst seem to consellors for melancollia, I imagine they use the same spells as Empire but likely figured out how to use them in psychology rather than just battlefield. I expect their books will deal with how bright magic applies and also more mundane psychology methods as well.

And Bright Mandred consoling soldiers that has lost friend in the battle aftermath is a powerfull image and kind of thing that gains soldiers eternel loyality.
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Imagine something like what Mathilde did with the Waaagh! energy, but with an Army's morale.

Take the Aqshy that is attracted by the Enemy's Good Morale, and turn it to Fire.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Because it's self evident that the Bright college is best for warriors. Yes, every college trains for war—but only the Bright College trains it's wizards as Soldiers. Grey's are assassins, diplomats, and spies. Golds are alchemists, metalsmiths, and engineers. Jade's are farmers.

But Brights? They are soldiers, champions, and commanders. Sure, you get outliers—Adela is a mechanic, but even then her main focus is the creation of new weapons. But on the whole, the Brights teach the art of war as part of the main curriculum. For everyone else, it's optional.
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You are kinda falling into the IC hype the Brights have for themselves. Sure, they are the college that considers life as a weapon the default path, but does that automatically make them better at fostering a martial talent than the more flexible colleges? Especially a talent that is predestined to be a leader rather than a mere soldier. Those are different things. You call out the art of war but I don't really get the vibe that the Brights are preparing their children for being someone who is in charge of anything.
 
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