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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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IronFist said:
*cough* Chaos Mathilde and the Lord of Change...

Does apparition binding not count?
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My point is that making these sorts of deals isn't a simple matter of "ask and ye shall receive". Apparition binding took us a great deal of effort, first to determine that what we wanted was possible, then to sketch out a rough model for the spell, find an appropriate target, bind that target, and codify its summoning to a specific ritual.

It might be possible to call on unusual amounts of power via a deal with a river spirit that has been empowered with an appropriate Waystone... but it wouldn't be the sort of thing that just anyone could do. If the person trying to do so was a College-trained Wizard, they'd need to first go through a process around as involved and time consuming as Mathilde did... and that'd get them a ritual that'd let them call upon the power of a single river spirit, usable only in the vicinity of that river, and they'd need to revise that ritual for any other river they wanted to attempt it with. Certainly, there exist individuals who are willing to bind themselves to a given area for more power within that area, or prodigies that can pull that kind of thing off repeatedly without needing undue focus, but this remains the sort of trick that works better for some magical traditions than others, and one might expect the new power flows to benefit Witches more than Wizards as a result.
 
We do have the issue with waystone production at the moment being bottlenecked by Laurelorn. The current model requires someone with some skill in High Magic (House Tindomiel can probably provide this, but how far can they scale and how much will they request in payment?) And also a Archmage for the storage enchantment. We will probably have their attention and focus on the task as long as they remain interested. Will that be long enough for them to figure out a simpler method to make it? Who knows.

The current model seems very unlikely to be the one that goes into mass production. But it is a very good example of what can be produced by the peak of three nations working together. (Or really, elves and dwarfs working together and humans there as the middlemen. None of the components we chose were designed by humans.)
 
Woltaire said:
I really hope that this waystone attempt does not fail cause I don't want to relitgate this vote
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I think it is extremely likely that we will take the "build a waystone" action at least once more in the future, because even if the current design succeeds we might want Waystones at different places on the cost:effectiveness tradeoff curve in order to optimize for different use cases (or to solve different problems altogether, like "giving the dwarves something they can build themselves for their Karaks").

If it's any consolation, a large part of the frustration people had during this vote was that we didn't know anything about how components would work together. That will be less true in future votes, and so I think future "build a waystone" actions will be easier on the thread: we're Trying It, and we're Finding Out.
 
Blackshard said:
"If you make the right deals with the right spirits, you can become incredibly powerful" is not exactly a new revelation. The Hag Witches of Kislev in general, and Baba Niedzwenka in particular, have definitely been making the point more salient recently, but it remains a trickier thing for some magical traditions to arrange than others.
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Most spirits can't help most magic users so much so directly as this allows. This would give us a framework to do something very useful to empower Wind using wizards in a way that a spirit probably couldn't manage.

You can make a deal with a naiad by walking up to them and talking to them. All the examples we have of naiads of the Empire's rivers spoke Reikspeil and had conversations with regular people.

Blackshard said:
My point is that making these sorts of deals isn't a simple matter of "ask and ye shall receive". Apparition binding took us a great deal of effort, first to determine that what we wanted was possible, then to sketch out a rough model for the spell, find an appropriate target, bind that target, and codify its summoning to a specific ritual.

It might be possible to call on unusual amounts of power via a deal with a river spirit that has been empowered with an appropriate Waystone... but it wouldn't be the sort of thing that just anyone could do. If the person trying to do so was a College-trained Wizard, they'd need to first go through a process around as involved and time consuming as Mathilde did... and that'd get them a ritual that'd let them call upon the power of a single river spirit, usable only in the vicinity of that river, and they'd need to revise that ritual for any other river they wanted to attempt it with. Certainly, there exist individuals who are willing to bind themselves to a given area for more power within that area, or prodigies that can pull that kind of thing off repeatedly without needing undue focus, but this remains the sort of trick that works better for some magical traditions than others, and one might expect the new power flows to benefit Witches more than Wizards as a result.
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Why would any ritual be required? The wizard benefiting from it wouldn't need to do anything special. The river spirit would do all the heavy lifting by teleporting the desired Wind to the location of the wizard and releasing it. The wizard just uses the extra magic that's made available. This almost literally is ask and you shall receive from the wizards point of view after the initial agreement is made.

And any wizard should be able to do it. They either need to be covered in some master deal agreed with the spirit, or go and have a chat with the spirit to cut their own deal but that's it. Same as dealing with anyone else. Spirits are basically people. See Drycha. The advantages Hag Wizards have is they know what spirits like and don't like and probably know specialist techniques to hurt them to force them to make deals.

And the power flow would be useless to a witch in most circumstances. They don't use the Winds.

And there's no reason you even need to be a magic user to cut a deal with a spirit to pay them to transport things along their river that I'm aware of. I can see the mundane Imperial government being interested in paying spirits to rapidly transport high priority messages.
 
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I will repeat my hope that we may get more insight in how Rune A mixes with Capstone B, and whether Storage X fits into Foundation Y, and so on.

For the next waystone we make, we might straight-up get told "this component can't go with this other one", which would be good for streamlining the votes more.

...Incidentally, since we have The Gambler on, I wonder whether Ranald is capable of unconventional help such as sending Caledor a polite letter asking for advice or something.
 
I figure we will need to build at least 3 more waystones. One for Kislev so the illiterate use witches can make it. Than one for the dawi so they can prove their superiority. Followed by one than can easily be mass produced for when chaos come south again to replace the ones they will destroy. Or really one we can put on the frontiers and if they get destroyed it is not too bad.
 
nothingtoseehere said:
We do have the issue with waystone production at the moment being bottlenecked by Laurelorn. The current model requires someone with some skill in High Magic (House Tindomiel can probably provide this, but how far can they scale and how much will they request in payment?) And also a Archmage for the storage enchantment. We will probably have their attention and focus on the task as long as they remain interested. Will that be long enough for them to figure out a simpler method to make it? Who knows.

The current model seems very unlikely to be the one that goes into mass production. But it is a very good example of what can be produced by the peak of three nations working together. (Or really, elves and dwarfs working together and humans there as the middlemen. None of the components we chose were designed by humans.)
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Laurelorn started the Waystone Project to build diplomatic inroads with the powers of the Old World. It has significant reasons to supply the components until the entire network is finished. Which probably won't be in Mathilde's lifetime. The Eonir are elves, with a lifespan measured in centuries. They won't lose interest, even ignoring the political concerns, in Mathilde's lifetime. If nothing else, Ulthuan has many more archmages and High Magic enchanters than Laurelorn, so we should be able to get components from them. Though we should do that regardless.

Most of the model is made by elves, but humans provided the riverine tributary. It was provided by the Empire too.

Woltaire said:
I really hope that this waystone attempt does not fail cause I don't want to relitgate this vote
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I want off of Mr. Boney's wild ride! :V

DragonParadox said:
I think most of the voters here planned to make more than one type of Waystone regardless, so it's not so much re-litigation as things going as intended.
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picklepikkl said:
I think it is extremely likely that we will take the "build a waystone" action at least once more in the future, because even if the current design succeeds we might want Waystones at different places on the cost:effectiveness tradeoff curve in order to optimize for different use cases (or to solve different problems altogether, like "giving the dwarves something they can build themselves for their Karaks").
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I definitely think we are going to make more. If nothing else I would rather have keyphrase waystones without the riverine leyline. Most of the locations we erect keyphrase waystones won't have rivers and I would rather cut down on the complexity for those areas. Preserve the riverine keyphrase waystones for the places where they can actually help. Plan: Repairing The Network First was my favorite for that, but the Fascis wouldn't be bad.

Nurgle said:
I figure we will need to build at least 3 more waystones. One for Kislev so the illiterate use witches can make it. Than one for the dawi so they can prove their superiority. Followed by one than can easily be mass produced for when chaos come south again to replace the ones they will destroy. Or really one we can put on the frontiers and if they get destroyed it is not too bad.
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The Ice Witches can't make any components. We can't put Zlata on Leylines or the Foundation again, so we can't get a Ice Witch version of that. We can have her work on the Rune alternative option and I think we should. It also is possible to write-in the capstone action again. But I don't see the value in doing the capstone again.

Zlata has really not been helpful. :anger:
 
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Nurgle said:
One for Kislev so the illiterate use witches can make it.
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I have 0 expectation that the ice witches will be making their own personal waystones ever. They have basically 0 components they can create at the moment.

I could *maybe* see a hag witch design that just bound a bunch of spirits to a rock and told them to get cracking.
 
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MrHobbit said:
Zlata has really not been helpful. :anger:
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Zlata has issues ranging from the personal to the systemic in doing anything helpful:
  1. She is very young, the equivalent of an advanced journeywoman (It goes maiden/mother/crone and the latter is the equivalent of Lady Magister).
  2. She is from a tradition that is literally bound to the land, this being a land she is not in. We do not even know if she can cast spells in a place as alien as Laurelorn.
  3. She is intimidated by all the world class talent, at least one of which is the Sea Hag, horror of children's tales
Blame the Ice Court for sending her.
 
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Wiggy said:
I have 0 expectation that the ice witches will be making their own personal waystones ever. They have basically 0 components they can create at the moment.

I could *maybe* see a hag witch design that just bound a bunch of spirits to a rock and told them to get cracking.
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Well maybe if they tech up for the next decade, but the current Ice Witches are clearly at a very low point.
 
DragonParadox said:
Zlata has issues ranging from the personal to the systemic in doing anything helpful:
  1. She is very young, the equivalent of an advanced journeywoman (It goes maiden/mother/crone and the latter is the equivalent of Lady Magister).
  2. She is from a tradition that is literally bound to the land, this being a land she is not in. We do not even know if she can cast spells in a place as alien as Laurelorn.
  3. She is intimidated by all the world class talent, at least one of which is the Sea Hag, still of children's tales
Blame the Ice Court for sending her.
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Zlata basically got Act 1 Mathilde'd, except that Mathilde didn't have to share a council with Vlad von Carstein.
 
You know how at the start of the quest we had this option?

Boney said:
[ ] Home: As soon as you returned to Stirland, you felt the omnipresent mists rush into your soul and revitalize you. This is the land of shadows, and you are a mage of shadows. Bonus to magic within Stirland itself, penalties to magic outside of it.
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I imagine that's Ice Witches all the time, for Kislev.
 
MrHobbit said:
The Ice Witches can't make any components. We can't put Zlata on Leylines or the Foundation again, so we can't get a Ice Witch version of that. We can have her work on the Rune alternative option and I think we should. It also is possible to write-in the capstone action again. But I don't see the value in doing the capstone again.

Zlata has really not been helpful. :anger:
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The Ice Witches have been struggling through decades of deliberate neglect (at best) or ostracizing by the ruler of Kislev (at worst). They haven't been quite under siege like the Colleges were, but that's more because the Ice Witches enjoyed more local support and were lacking in physical institutions to begin with.

And that's after the reign of Kattarin the Bloody.

Needless to say, the Ice Witches have been struggling to get by for so long. While I'm sure that the older, more experienced Ice Witches would have been able to contribute to the project much more, it's understandable that they have way less people/expertise to spare right now on a long-shot project, particularly when they're in such dire straits that the eldest and most powerful of their order was recently spending time making ice sculptures for a local noble's party just to get money without drawing the ire of the now-late Tsar.

Kislev is absolutely the member of the project in most need of the fruits of this project and most deserving of a free pass--they took the brunt of the damage from the Great War Against Chaos (not counting the Norse Dwarves) and have recovered the least since then (the Karaz Ankor might have recovered the least since then up until a decade ago, but Karak Vlag and Karak Eight Peaks have turned that around).

Kislev is still the bulwark of the Old World, and it is very much in the interests of all parties present in the project if the Ice Witches are helped to recover and gain a better understanding of the Waystones they will be protecting and benefiting from.
 
Alratan said:
That does make me wonder about the counterfactual when Vlad hadn't decided to kick off the Vampire Wars, and stayed in charge of Sylvania up until the reunificaiton of the Empire. Would he be sitting on the reformed Electoral Council?
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That is an interesting thought, lets assume for the sake of argument that Good Boy Vlad decided to sit tight, make Sylvania prosperous, not use too much Dhar and poison the land. Eventually the religions of the Empire would have realized that he is immortal and all Gods have a grudge against vampires, especially the Sigmarites because of Nagash. I think sadly what would have happened is he would have been ground down by the other ECs looking for religious brownie points.

For Vlad the Vampire Wars were win or die.
 
DragonParadox said:
That is an interesting thought, lets assume for the sake of argument that Good Boy Vlad decided to sit tight, make Sylvania prosperous, not use too much Dhar and poison the land. Eventually the religions of the Empire would have realized that he is immortal and all Gods have a grudge against vampires, especially the Sigmarites because of Nagash. I think sadly what would have happened is he would have been ground down by the other ECs looking for religious brownie points.

For Vlad the Vampire Wars were win or die.
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I suspect you're right, but did the Empire know about the Nagash/vampire connection though? The gods of the Empire may hate vampires now, but if Vlad had kept his head down they might not have gone down that road.

It's not as if there aren't other quasi-immortals around.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Kislev is still the bulwark of the Old World, and it is very much in the interests of all parties present in the project if the Ice Witches are helped to recover and gain a better understanding of the Waystones they will be protecting and benefiting from.
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This is true. It doesn't matter how much or how little they've been able to contribute to the project. Kislev is getting more Waystones whether it wants them or not - and after a little regicide, Kislev is totally on board with building more Waystones.
 
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Alratan said:
I suspect you're right, but did the Empire know about the Nagash/vampire connection though? The gods of the Empire may hate vampires now, but if Vlad had kept his head down they might not have gone down that road.

It's not as if there aren't other quasi-immortals around.
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I think Nagash had vampires in his armies when he showed up, that is one of the reason why in some versions of the story Sigmar has particular power to ward them off.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think Nagash had vampires in his armies when he showed up, that is one of the reason why in some versions of the story Sigmar has particular power to ward them off.
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I'd have to look it up, but I think he shouldn't have. Nagash's invasion of the Empire happened after Vlad broke the control that Nagash had over the vampires by letting Alcazzidar kill him, and they deserted him.

It's a significant background point that the reason that vampires are particularly vulnerable to holy items of Sigmar is because Nagash cursed them as he was defeated by Sigmar, because he blamed his defeat on the fact that the vampires weren't supporting him thanks to their earlier desertion.

That version of the legend may be one with additions added after the Vampire wars to link the vampires to one of the classic enemies Sigmar defeated. The Legends series, where I think this comes from, contains a lot of anachronisms, like technology, which are to be expected because, as the series title tells you, these are IC legends. Later listeners to the legend would expect vampires to be involved when talking about the undead, so storytellers would have added a vampire character to add verisimilitude, even at the cost of inaccuracy.
 
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Alratan said:
I'd have to look it up, but I think he shouldn't have. Nagash's invasion of the Empire happened after Vlad broke the control that Nagash had over the vampires, and they all deserted him.

It's a significant background point that the reason that vampires are particularly vulnerable to holy items of Sigmar is because Nagash cursed them as he was defeated by Sigmar, because he blamed his defeat on the vampires' earlier desertion.

That version of the legend may be one with additions added after the Vampire wars to link the vampires to one of the classic enemies Sigmar defeated. The Legends series, where I think this comes from, contains a lot of anachronisms, like technology, which are to be expected because, as the series title tells you, these are IC legends.
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The vampires may no longer have been compelled to follow Nagash, but there's always some unwise individuals in any given faction. There may have been those who were more afraid of Nagash conquering everything alone and then punishing the vampires for not coming to him; or those who like perhaps W'soran were fanatics.
 
Parabola said:
The vampires may no longer have been compelled to follow Nagash, but there's always some unwise individuals in any given faction. There may have been those who were more afraid of Nagash conquering everything alone and then punishing the vampires for not coming to him; or those who like perhaps W'soran were fanatics.
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W'soran's progeny were still cursed to be vulnerable to Sigmarite holy icons for the offence of not showing up to fight Sigmar though. Liber Necris says that the vampires in general didn't come to his aid when he called them.

As a piece of background building, it's much weaker and undermines the point if some vampires actually did come when he called and Nagash was just exaggerating for effect.
 
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