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Why are people still talking about We-Silk like it's a product that will see widespread use before the quest is over? Did I miss an update in which they worked out all the societal thingies holding them back and are now doing trade to more than just the hold they live in?
 
I'm not sure how you concluded that, the Canal is a direct threat to their monopolistic position, it makes the Empire richer in a way they cannot extract a toll out of and for certain houses it might even lead to ruin.
The issue is that anything that makes the empire stronger is a danger to marienburg, because a strong empire may be able to conquer them.


Plus we got word from one of the houses Marienbug (the Marienburd's dwarf one we spoke with) and Boney that the canal won't ruin anyone but fools and really small houses.
So that's a lie?
 
The issue is that anything that makes the empire stronger is a danger to marienburg, because a strong empire may be able to conquer them.


Plus we got word from one of the houses Marienbug (the Marienburd's dwarf one we spoke with) and Boney that the canal won't ruin anyone but fools and really small houses.
So that's a lie?

Only if that strengthening of the empire is our of proportion to Marienburg's cut.

Let's say we have an X factor, the empire strikes silver somewhere, they now have a lot more silver which they could put towards the conquest of Mairneburg, but the merchants see that they jack up fees and tarrifs to the point where a portion of that silver now goes towards their 'hire mercenaries' fund

The canal strengthens the empire by shrinking Marienburg's cut. That is a clear and present threat even if it does not cross some arbitrary threshold to 'ruin' them.
 
Well, they're in a strategic location that allows them a lot of power over the Empire, so of course all their neighbours (the 2 of them) want to invade them. And give me 2 nations that can reach each other and never fought a war in hundreds of year oh history.

Hasn't it been 208 years since the U.S and Canada have been at war, does that count for something? (If there was any after 1815 I am currently unaware of it)
 
Why are people still talking about We-Silk like it's a product that will see widespread use before the quest is over? Did I miss an update in which they worked out all the societal thingies holding them back and are now doing trade to more than just the hold they live in?
Yes, I believe you did. Francesco Caravello was advertising the silk during the canal opening, and the societal thingies are mostly Dwarf internal conflict societal thingies that aren't holding even K8P back from exploring the possibilities on its own, and almost certainly won't hold the Empire, or Kislev, or even Laurelorn back from trading with them.
 
Why are people still talking about We-Silk like it's a product that will see widespread use before the quest is over? Did I miss an update in which they worked out all the societal thingies holding them back and are now doing trade to more than just the hold they live in?
Yeah the Undumgi we're wearing silks (though not actual We-Silk yet) during the canal opening which Mathilde guessed meant that the silk production method might finally be close to finished.
 
Just a thought, but have we even had it confirmed that Marienberg as a state was behind the canal attack? People are talking about it as if it's a certainty.

Even if it was done by Marienbergers, there's still the chance they were part of or influenced by that Chaos Cult the authorities their suppressed deliberately to incite conflict between Order forces in the run up to the Everchosen Bowl.
 
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I think their position was also based on being able to safely poke at the Empire because it was a weak basket case that always had bigger problems to deal with.
Now it's ~60 years on from Dieter and there's rising new competition from the Dwarfs, Laurelorn and Kislev, none of whom can be safely messed with, and now that Sylvania is defanged the Empire probably has room to really push back against Marienburg instead of ignoring their stunts.

Then you have the wildcard stuff , like Mathilde creating a spell that's perfect for moving armies through a swamp, and the Empire suddenly having clout with Ulthuan from the waystone project. I don't see how they can keep the status quo going.
 
Just a thought, but have we even had it confirmed that Marienberg as a state was behind the canal attack? People are talking about it as if it's a certainty.

Even if it was done by Marienbergers, there's still the chance they were part of or influenced by that Chaos Cult the authorities their suppressed deliberately to incite conflict between Order forces in the run up to the Everchosen Bowl.

Marienburg claims that it was not and it even got Mathilde to attest to their findings, even so they failed to the degree of allowing those cultists to be in that position of power. If the investigation had been left to dwarfs alone and they found the traces it could well have lead to war with the Karaz Ankor, or worse conflict between the Karaz Ankor and the Empire as the cultists went to some trouble to use Imperial resources like sourcing their gunpowder from inland. I have no doubt that Chaos would like a war between the Empire and Marienbirg, but that does not mean the status quo is inherently desirable.
 
Marienburg, the State, was not behind the attack, as far as we can tell.
Some people in Marienburg, possibly even in the ruling council, might have been, unproven and possibly unprovable.
 
I thought Canada was still a British colony back then?
Theoretically, but places like Hudson bay, quebec and others may as well not have been.

That said on this thread at least I shall stop myself here because getting into the details of when a country is a country and when it isn't will make my head hurt badly, especially given the situation with Mexico(our other land neighbor) being a country is even more convoluted than that.

For the sake of sanity, you can count it as 200-plus years of peace between the U.S and Britain who have always had reasons for war(such as Hawaii and Oregon, etc) and who may or may not nebulously have a land border depending on how one counts things.

Really though it does seem like geographic isolation is the best thing for preventing wars between states.
 
Marienburg claims that it was not and it even got Mathilde to attest to their findings, even so they failed to the degree of allowing those cultists to be in that position of power. If the investigation had been left to dwarfs alone and they found the traces it could well have lead to war with the Karaz Ankor, or worse conflict between the Karaz Ankor and the Empire as the cultists went to some trouble to use Imperial resources like sourcing their gunpowder from inland. I have no doubt that Chaos would like a war between the Empire and Marienbirg, but that does not mean the status quo is inherently desirable.

We know that Lahmians got control of the Empress and other important people in the Empire, and who knows what bad things that conspiracy did that we don't know about.

Neither the Empire nor Marienberg is immune to subversion by the enemies of mankind, and an occupied Marienberg seems like it would be more vulnerable to cult activity, both because of the independence movement becoming more extreme and because of the mundane corrupting effects of being an occupying imperial garrison/administration escalating to chaotic degrees.

The least bad solution I see is some grand bargain with guarantors. The Empire agrees to stop trying to reconquer Marienberg and Marienberg agrees to keep tariffs reasonable. You'd probably need both the Karaz Ankor and Ulthuan as guarantors.

The incipient Kislev canal actually removes one major issue of contention. The Empire no longer needs to send military vessels through the middle of Marienberg to get to the Sea of Claws when it's built, removing a major point of contention in coming to an agreement.
 
We know that Lahmians got control of the Empress and other important people in the Empire, and who knows what bad things that conspiracy did that we don't know about.

Neither the Empire nor Marienberg is immune to subversion by the enemies of mankind, and an occupied Marienberg seems like it would be more vulnerable to cult activity, both because of the independence movement becoming more extreme and because of the mundane corrupting effects of being an occupying imperial garrison/administration escalating to chaotic degrees.

The least bad solution I see is some grand bargain with guarantors. The Empire agrees to stop trying to reconquer Marienberg and Marienberg agrees to keep tariffs reasonable. You'd probably need both the Karaz Ankor and Ulthuan as guarantors.

The incipient Kislev canal actually removes one major issue of contention. The Empire no longer needs to send military vessels through the middle of Marienberg to get to the Sea of Claws when it's built, removing a major point of contention in coming to an agreement.

That would be great if we could swing it, trouble is Marienburg seems opposed to coming to the table. There is only so many imperial citizens carried off by Norscan raiders in Marienburg's pay you can write off on the reasoning that occupation would be too difficult. There is also the fact that we would somehow have to convince the elves to commit their very stretched recourses to that risky pacification operation if the treaty is breached and we would have to get elves and dwarfs to sign on to be on the same side in a war should things go poorly either against the Empire or Marienburg. For his part Thorgrim probably really does not want to be in the position where he would be honorbound to march on Aldorf because some Emperor took leave of his senses with regard to a port city on the other side of the continent.
 
That would be great if we could swing it, trouble is Marienburg seems opposed to coming to the table. There is only so many imperial citizens carried off by Norscan raiders in Marienburg's pay you can write off on the reasoning that occupation would be too difficult. There is also the fact that we would somehow have to convince the elves to commit their very stretched recourses to that risky pacification operation if the treaty is breached and we would have to get elves and dwarfs to sign on to be on the same side in a war should things go poorly either against the Empire or Marienburg. For his part Thorgrim probably really does not want to be in the position where he would be honorbound to march on Aldorf because some Emperor took leave of his senses with regard to a port city on the other side of the continent.

I don't think we know how wiling Marienberg is to come to the table, or how willing the Empire historically has been to negotiate. I think there's evidence that the Empire has previously signed treaties acknowledging Marienberg's independence and then broken them by attempting to reconquer them by force.

Do we know that the Empire has even tried making reasonable offers to Marienberg, or whether revanchist forces within the Empire have seized on the opportunity to keep escalating the dispute in the hopes of manufacturing an excuse to invade, hoping that the Colleges mean they'll win this time? For all we know there are people blocking a diplomatic solution within the Empire, and that's part of why Marienberg is getting desperate. We really don't know much about the recent context or motivations of the major players.

The guarantee doesn't need to be in terms of military intervention. For example, on the dwarven (and possibly Kislev, if they were involved), it could be a promise to close their canals to trade/vessels from anyone who breaks the treaty, which is also a substantial deterrence. On Ulthuan's part they could ban Marienberg's vessels from Lothern.

I'm also not that convinced that the Norscans need to be paid by Marienberg to raid the coast of the Sea of Claws. I think they'd be carrying off (relative) innocents anyway, and the Empire's coasts are some of the most convenient. At most, I think Marienberg's payments would persuade them to raid the Empire rather than the Wasteland's coasts.

There's also the issue of the major opportunity cost of a war with Marienberg. Given the great amount of territory that the Empire has lost to the beastmen and greenskins, it would seem like it makes more sense to focus efforts against enemies who can't be negotiated with. Marienberg is likely to be a very hard target, so we're better off steering the Empire at better targets like fallen nexuses. Conflict with Marienberg is in competition for resources with our wider objectives, I feel.
 
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I don't see any grand bargain being possible if the empire can't also get guarantees about marienburg not sabotaging northern ports, and given that the sabotage was in fact under the table in the first place, no promise from Marienberg they won't try to sabotage any northern ports actually does anything to stop marienburg from sabotaging any northern ports.

(Also "the empire will agree to stop trying to reconquer marienberg"? WHAT trying, they tried, past tense, one time and haven't since.)
 
I don't think we know how wiling Marienberg is to come to the table, or how willing the Empire historically has been to negotiate. I think there's evidence that the Empire has previously signed treaties acknowledging Marienberg's independence and then broken them by attempting to reconquer them by force.

Do we know that the Empire has even tried making reasonable offers to Marienberg, or whether revanchist forces within the Empire have seized on the opportunity to keep escalating the dispute in the hopes of manufacturing an excuse to invade, hoping that the Colleges mean they'll win this time? For all we know there are people blocking a diplomatic solution within the Empire, and that's part of why Marienberg is getting desperate. We really don't know much about the recent context or motivations of the major players.

The guarantee doesn't need to be in terms of military intervention. For example, on the dwarven (and possibly Kislev, if they were involved), it could be a promise to close their canals to trade/vessels from anyone who breaks the treaty, which is also a substantial deterrence. On Ulthuan's part they could ban Marienberg's vessels from Lothern.

I'm also not that convinced that the Norscans need to be paid by Marienberg to raid the coast of the Sea of Claws. I think they'd be carrying off (relative) innocents anyway, and the Empire's coasts are some of the most convenient. At most, I think Marienberg's payments would persuade them to raid the Empire rather than the Wasteland's coasts.

There's also the issue of the major opportunity cost of a war with Marienberg. Given the great amount of territory that the Empire has lost to the beastmen and greenskins, it would seem like it makes more sense to focus efforts against enemies who can't be negotiated with. Marienberg is likely to be a very hard target, so we're better off steering the Empire at better targets like fallen nexuses. Conflict with Marienberg is in competition for resources with our wider objectives, I feel.

That sounds fair if we could swing it.

I don't see any grand bargain being possible if the empire can't also get guarantees about marienburg not sabotaging northern ports, and given that the sabotage was in fact under the table in the first place, no promise from Marienberg they won't try to sabotage any northern ports actually does anything to stop marienburg from sabotaging any northern ports.

(Also "the empire will agree to stop trying to reconquer marienberg"? WHAT trying, they tried, past tense, one time and haven't since.)

Sure Marienburg could try to keep playing that game, but doing so when the threat is 'you are now banned from Lothern' is unlikely to be something they would do if we can swing such a treaty
 
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You know, if the Empire can move their Wolfships into the Sea of Claws without being stopped by Marienburg, it might be feasible to build up a large navy internally and then move it out to defend the construction of new major ports. It'd be a pain, but it's not like the Empire is lacking in wood.

Maybe in some upcoming turns we'll see an expansion in Altdorf's shipyards?
 
Sure Marienburg could try to keep playing that game, but doing so when the threat is 'you are not banned from Lothern' is unlikely to be something they would do if we can swing such a treaty
For such a treaty to actually get swung I think unlikely isn't good enough, it needs to be negligible, and the chances of actually getting caught seem low enough that I don't think anyone on the empire side would actually believe the chances are negligible.
 
Also, Marienburg is unable to control its merchant houses, so all it takes is one or two idiots who think they can get away with it.
 
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You know, if the Empire can move their Wolfships into the Sea of Claws without being stopped by Marienburg, it might be feasible to build up a large navy internally and then move it out to defend the construction of new major ports. It'd be a pain, but it's not like the Empire is lacking in wood.

Maybe in some upcoming turns we'll see an expansion in Altdorf's shipyards?
Not sure that's feasible- the reason for the ports is the logistical capacity to support fleets in the first place. You can't build the fleets without somewhere to base them and support them logistically.

And I don't know that having support down the rivers is anywhere near enough.
The Empire's actions at best would be installing a feudal oligarchy in the region as opposed to a merchant oligarchy, and it's not like Westerland was some exploited hinterland that fueled an imperial metropole, no more than a lot of the Northern provinces are subject to the tyranny of geography and terrible seaborne neighbors (funny how that reoccurs).
It's not like independence was required for the merchants to rule Marienburg, the merchants were already ruling Marienburg, ever since the last Baron of Westerland died during the Great War Against Chaos.

If the Empire reconquers Marienburg then probably the merchants will no longer be ruling there, but that's mainly because of the actions those merchants took once they were in charge.
 
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