You'd be forcing a battle with every ship laying at ankor in Marienburg, that be a gamble I wouldn't take.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Yup, they got a wizards college for naval magic. The full name escapes me. They also got the asur kicking around for what it's worth.
The difference in distance is completely irrelevant; in our world ships preferred to travel an additional ~8000km around Africa, simply to avoid ~120km of land-travel over the suez isthmus. The additional distance ships would need to travel to access the Empire through Erengrad instead of Marienburg is pretty much nonexistent by comparison, and for ships from Tilea, Estalia, Araby, etc, the Barak Varr route would now be shorter by default.
The difference in throughput for both Reik and Canals is pure guesswork, but for the sake of your argument, let's say that you're right, and the canals being built could handle only ~50% of the trade volume that's currently going through Marienburg for some reason. So what? 50% is still vastly better than the 0% trade the Empire would otherwise have available whenever Marienburg feels like screwing them over, and in return for that reduction, Marienburg would lose ALL of the Empire's maritime trade with Kislev, Bretonnia, Estalia, etc.
But that ignores that the Black Water canal is being built by Dwarfs, who're kind of known for their penchant of over-engineering things, so I kind of doubt that the canal would be anywhere near the bottleneck you expect it to be. And if there is enough demand for the canals to become bottlenecks, expanding them is always an option.
So while the Empire placing an embargo on Marienburg would definitely hurt them in the short-term, because existing trade-routes would be disrupted and need to readjust, in the long run they'd be perfectly fine with trade now moving through those canals, while Marienburg would suffer.
This is another factor that the canals change; IIRC right now the Empire's 2nd fleet is stationed in Marienburg, partly because only Marienburg has the facilities for them, and partly because, as much as the Empire hates Marienburg, it's currently still reliant on it for maritime trade, so the Empire's obligate to defend Marienburg against naval raiders out of self-interest. With the canals, defending Marienburg is no longer a strategic necessity for the Empire, so they could easily decide to relocate the 2nd fleet someplace else.
Which in turn would mean that, to maintain the same level of protection, Marienburg would now need to spend its own money, which is money that couldn't be used for trading, or playing fuck-around games with the Empire.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Baron Henryk's College of Navigation and Sea Magicks.
Almost certainly has had some lecturers from Ulthuan. And I think Boney said it had been a branch of the Colleges of Magic?
And here's your problem, because Marienburg isn't a stretch of land you have to load and unload. And it's also not the modern international economy we know.
A better example for this would be the nordsea -easternsea channel.
It's faster and people use it a lot but it doesn't actually make the route that much faster.
If a ship captain has to choose going through Marienburg paying it's toll but getting access to it's market, and going through the small rivers to reach kislev (which limits his loading) or going the long way through barak varr (which probably doesn't limit his loading) the question isn't a certain or easy one.
As for the throughput of channels being lower then gigantic rivers flowing into the sea? Yeah I'd be willing to bet on that.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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50% might honestly be generous.
Exact numbers are suspect, but the Reik is huge. Miles across.
Nordland's fleet is stationed in Nordland, at Dietershafen. It's technically in Laurelorn, but is on the coast and was not one of the destroyed villages.
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Nope. At least, not in Divided Loyalties. Nordland's footing the bill for them, and we know this because Ostland made some noises about basing it in Salkalten if Nordland couldn't afford it.
Blackout
Fed By Comments
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- Who knows?
When Marienburg seceded it took the Imperial Second Fleet with it and split it between the merchant houses, forcing the Empire to rebuild it in Nordland.
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- Location
- Australia
Might be thinking of canon, where it is a branch of the Colleges. I believe in DL it's always been fully independent.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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Believe this is what I was thinking of.
So, a bit unclear.
*shrug* Prove it, then. Give some hard numbers to support your argument that the canals would be the massive bottlenecks you claim they would be, because to turn your own words back on you; this isn't the modern international economy we know. There's no fleets of massive container ships hundreds of meters long and carrying tens of thousands of tonnes of cargo; ships are much smaller in both number and in size. If the current numbers and sizes of cargo-ships can fit through the canals' throughput readily enough, then it doesn't matter how much bigger the Reik is or isn't.
To me, the Interlude with the Chamberlain seemed to indicate that the Black Water and Ostland canals alone would be able to roughly compensate for the trade lost in case of a Marienburg blockade.
Aside from that, however, your problem is that you're making the same mistake as Fooger by ignoring the human element. Marienburg has been abusing its monopoly over the Empire's maritime trade for centuries, to the point where - as Boney noted - the Druchii would be able to make major diplomatic inroads with the Empire as long as it would hurt Marienburg.
With that in mind, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that, when it comes to merchants' decision as to which port and route they'll use to trade with the Empire, the Empire's going to start putting its thumb on the scale in favor of "any other than Marienburg".
I think the bigger issue for Marienburg isn't so much the actual blunt actions like a unilateral blockade, it's that the canals make the threat of those kinds of actions a lot easier for the Empire to splinter the cohesion of the merchant houses. Before it could be easy enough for all the houses to stay strong in the face of temptations to split them up like 2-3 houses getting exclusive access to the Reik (and in the process making those houses much more beholden to the Empire), because they knew that if they held out the Empire would cave and let everyone through. Whereas when all the canals are running the Empire could actually sustain such a threat for much longer.
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Firstly, hard numbers in a fantasy setting is quite hard and a bit peculiar for you to want but we can estimate.
The reik is gigantic at it's mouth, which is where Marienburg is located. If we go by the miles someone quoted big enough for several ships to cross paths or take the same.
Canals are generally built for one or in extreme cases two ships to go by each other. I doubt the dwarfs built small but I also doubt they built for more then two lines of traffic. Canals are expensive and time consuming even for dwarfs. Depending on how many locks are needed (this one will be important but we just don't know) traffic can be very restricted just through having to wait for a lock to be free.
Personally I'd be surprised if the canals could take 20% of the normal Marienburg traffic.
And sure, the empire will certainly try to put their thumbs on the scale but the merchant houses of the empire aren't stupid and the empire isn't made out of money.
I expect it will simply happen that Marienburg will lower tolls until equilibrium is achieved.
The bigger impact I see for the first fleet which now actually can leave Altdorf regularly, which might invigorate building on the coast.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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The Empire doesn't have many options there though. Goods coming through Marienburg are goin to be cheaper for the majority of the Empire, because both other options go through more people (the Dwarfs for the Varr route, and think three Boyars for Kislev?) and every extra entity adds more cost either through taxes or resale.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
This is only true until the empire levies ruinous taxes of using Marienburg, and only mareinburg. Which the empire can do. It would make things worse, on average, but the empire is spiteful enough.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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The Empire does not have to play fair on that. They can add a tax on all traffic coming to and from Marienburg.
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Somic
It's meow or never
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I'm a little surprised Niedzwenka is even at the coronation to get involved in the negotiations. I mean, sure, she almost certainly got an invitation because nobody wants to risk annoying her by snubbing her. I just wouldn't think that as an ancient horror she'd care about The Man in the Bokha Palace enough to come.
But then I guess she did answer the call from Boris to join the Project, so there's probably a closer connection there that we're not privy to.
But then I guess she did answer the call from Boris to join the Project, so there's probably a closer connection there that we're not privy to.
I personally think your vastly overestimating the scale the canals with what they are. The 80km long Canal de Briare was constructed in the 1600s in France (One of if not the greatest European powers of its day). It was considered an engineering marvel and took over 40 years (with some mild interruptions to building). Many of its locks can fit 1 barge at a time and in a modern year it will have 200,000 tons of cargo travel its length, even after significant upgrades have been afforded to it over the years and it still frequently has/had traffic problems. If Riverine traffic in the Empire is so low that 1 barge at a time is not a severe limitation on traffic, when it was for a small region of France, then any embargo by Marienburg means almost literally nothing to the people of the empire and that the canals are almost superfluous simply because so few goods are transported through the Reik.
By comparison the total cargo transported along the Rhine (What the Reik is based on) amounted to 310,000,000 tons over the course of a year in 2017, more than 100 times the volume of the Canal de Briare. Even if we must acknowledge these are modern figures for both. But even if we say that a dwarves canal is arbitrarily 10X as effective as a human one, the trade volumes remain incomparable. You will not in any way shape or form be able to substitute trade through the canals with that going along the Reik. This is before even considering the fact that to reach Brettonia or Ulthuan you would first have to travel in the opposite direction to them for hundreds of miles against the rivers current in order to eventually start heading in the right direction again.
For high value and goods of significant military/strategic interest. These canals are priceless. For giving the ability to the empire to sail their battle fleet out of the empire, (assuming the draught of the canals is great enough for their battleships) the canals are a literal lifesaver. To get messages quickly across the realm safer and quicker than many horses and show that the Empire if push comes to shove has options and can force Marianburg to lower their tolls because they as a port are no longer essential. These canals are incredible. But if a merchant avoids trading through Marianburg for reasons of pure patriotism, his rivals will eat him alive. #$@% Marienburg is a strong motivation. but it won't put food in a mans belly or coin into his purse.
Mathilde seems to have invited the participants at the Project to the coronation to discuss what they want from Ulthuan. That's why Hatalath and Thorek are at the conversation. It's almost certainly part of why Niedzwenka is there too. Of course Baba Niedzwenka would not miss an opportunity to gloat to the Asur about the fruits of human ingenuity.
Niedzwenka really does not like the Asur. I thought she seemed more aggrieved at them than at the Gospodar in the first meeting Mathilde had with her.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
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- Behind the Keyboard.
That assumes Empire is using 100% of possible reik trade atm. But considerin how much Marienburg is out to fuck Empire price point probably caused that to drop to 10% of the possible toughtput so any canal that doubles that will be enough for the Empire.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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Sure but that effectively raises the rices of everything they import. Like, this hurts the Empire as much as it does Marienburg. Remember that whole access to the Reik is the key feature of Marienburg's trade, it does do trade with people who aren't the Empire. People don't go to Marienburg solely to sell or buy to Imperials.
The Dwarf canals are big enough to carry slightly downsized ironclads IIRC. Definitely large enough for Imperial ships. Marienburg would still be better though, as it'll be quicker. And I'm not sure the Empire's navy can sail the rivers far enough to reach the canals.
The Empire is already connected by rivers. Both canals lead to foreign polities.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
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- Czech Republic
There's two problems with that
The price of such artifacts and the fact that I doubt those are on sale in markets like these.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
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- Behind the Keyboard.
Think about it, Kislev trade from north canal, Tilea, Estelia, Araby trade via Barrack Varr so Marienburg is left with not much at all that Empire can't give up.