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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Extra distance doesn't just cost time = provisioning, wages, maintenance consumables, cargo spoilage, interest, depreciation = money.

Barak Varr has tolls as well, knowing the Dawi they're probably higher than Marienburg's. Every little princedom in the Border Princes will have tolls. The canal locks will have fees. Zhufbar will have tolls. Plenty of the route is through wilderness where river pirates can lurk. Imperial nobles east of the planned market will have tolls.
 
noliar said:
Extra distance doesn't just cost time = provisioning, wages, maintenance consumables, cargo spoilage, interest, depreciation = money.

Barak Varr has tolls as well, knowing the Dawi they're probably higher than Marienburg's. Every little princedom in the Border Princes will have tolls. The canal locks will have fees. Zhufbar will have tolls. Plenty of the route is through wilderness where river pirates can lurk. Imperial nobles east of the planned market will have tolls.
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I mean it's the Border Princes, you can probably shoot the one-eyed toll-man and his one legged friend with a single rusted musket between then to spare yourself the toll. :V
 
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noliar said:
Extra distance doesn't just cost time = provisioning, wages, maintenance consumables, cargo spoilage, interest, depreciation = money.

Barak Varr has tolls as well, knowing the Dawi they're probably higher than Marienburg's. Every little princedom in the Border Princes will have tolls. The canal locks will have fees. Zhufbar will have tolls. Plenty of the route is through wilderness where river pirates can lurk. Imperial nobles east of the planned market will have tolls.
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Barak Varr's tariffs are, if anything, going to be significantly lower than Marienburg's, because they're not setting their tariffs with 'let's fuck over the Empire' in mind. On top of that, the Empire and the Karaz Ankor have been allies for several millennia - albeit not always perfect ones or without friction - so there's a decent chance that there's already treaties where they grant each other MFN status and whatnot.

As for the princedoms; as DragonParadox already (kinda) said, the petty rulers of the Border Princes don't exactly have much power, and if they try to mess with the Empires/Karaz Ankor's shiny new trade-route, then they risk a visit not just from dwarven river monitors, but Imperial wolfships as well.
 
Lonkas said:
It also still doesn't solve the problem that if someone in Altdorf wants to trade in Brettonia while avoiding Marienburg, they would have to travel around a continent to get to their desired ports so avoiding the city would still be insane from a commercial perspective.
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That is only true if there is something you want to buy from Bretonnia that you can't get from anywhere else. With canals majority of the trade goods you bought from Brettonia for being cheap suddenly becomes more expensive but with alternative goods from Tilea would flood the market in short order and problem would be solved after a shake up.

So any non unique trade goods that pass tough Marienburg suddenly gets a price ceiling equal to what it costs to buy and ship from the southern kingdoms via canals. They go above it and they might permenantly loose customers who finds other suppliers.

So what I am saying price of the Bretonnian wine might rise but cheap Tilean wine will flood the market in turn so there will be very little impact on the Empire.
 
Kelenas said:
Barak Varr's tariffs are, if anything, going to be significantly lower than Marienburg's, because they're not setting their tariffs with 'let's fuck over the Empire' in mind. On top of that, the Empire and the Karaz Ankor have been allies for several millennia - albeit not always perfect ones or without friction - so there's a decent chance that there's already treaties where they grant each other MFN status and whatnot.

As for the princedoms; as DragonParadox already (kinda) said, the petty rulers of the Border Princes don't exactly have much power, and if they try to mess with the Empires/Karaz Ankor's shiny new trade-route, then they risk a visit not just from dwarven river monitors, but Imperial wolfships as well.
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On the other hand, canals are very expensive to build and also expensive to maintain, and the tolls probably need to be high enough to cover those costs.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean it's the Border Princes, you can probably shoot the one-eyed tool-man and his one legged friend with a single rusted musket between then to spare yourself the toll. :V
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I think there is at least one Princedom where pulling this would lead to the merchant receiving a strongly worded letter from Barak Var, mentioning such unpleasntries as "weregeld", "fines" and "grudges". :V
 
Alratan said:
On the other hand, canals are very expensive to build and also expensive to maintain, and the tolls probably need to be high enough to cover those costs.
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Barak Varr supported Belegar's expedition because they knew a retaken K8P would mean much greater profit for them from the increased traffic on that portion of the Silk Road.

I think they're far-thinking enough to know that not gouging customers on canal-fees will get them more profit in the long run.
 
Mopman43 said:
Barak Varr supported Belegar's expedition because they knew a retaken K8P would mean much greater profit for them from the increased traffic on that portion of the Silk Road.

I think they're far-thinking enough to know that not gouging customers on canal-fees will get them more profit in the long run.
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They don't need to gauge them for the tolls to be high if the costs are high. I can't see the notoriously ruthless dwarven merchant lords of Barak Varr being willing to subsidise their rivals by charging below cost.
 
Alratan said:
On the other hand, canals are very expensive to build and also expensive to maintain, and the tolls probably need to be high enough to cover those costs.
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As we don't have any numbers we use words like tolls being high but they can mean anything, so are you saying canals are going toll higher than Marienburg? Because I don't agree. We know from the fact that Wilhelmine(?) being the one to come up with the idea of canal that appearently Mirenburg tolls are not just high, they are astronomical enough that canal turned out cheaper and Chambarlain of seal considered that finished canal was enough to replace Marienburg trade.

SO what I am getting from all these people is that Marienburg tolls were so high that Empire Traders were not able to make any trades at all. They had to pay Marienburg traders to be a middleman. AT that point it is no wonder Empire is jumping at it.
 
Alratan said:
They don't need to gauge them for the tolls to be high if the costs are high. I can't see the notoriously ruthless dwarven merchant lords of Barak Varr being willing to subsidise their rivals by charging below cost.
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True, but by the same token they are unlikely to set tolls to insanely huge. At price or small mark up are much more likely.
 
Alratan said:
They don't need to gauge them for the tolls to be high if the costs are high. I can't see the notoriously ruthless dwarven merchant lords of Barak Varr being willing to subsidise their rivals by charging below cost.
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Just to be clear... this is an argument for conquering Marienburg. If you are right and canals fundamentally do not reduce the city's power over the Empire's economy then the only rational thing to so is declare war, siege the place, put the current leadership to the sword and replace them with a more biddable one that pays its taxes to Aldorf. It makes no sense as far as the Empire's national security to leave so much power in the hands of a hostile polity especially when it is known that the most egregious part of that hostility was Chaos-fueled.

For Marienburg at this point it's damned if you do, damned if you do not. If they are weakened by this then they will be easier to conquer, if they are not weakened then it becomes more urgent to conquer them.
 
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Conquering Marienburg has one teeny tiny, tall-helmeted, magic-wielding problem with it. The Empire can't go at it without knowing whether the Asur will do another Grootsher Marsh, and even with the Colleges sending battlewizards, the cost can still be ruinously high. The Empire's forces are spread thin already, it cannot afford that.

This is why we had the option to lean on the Asur to force concessions from Marienburg - because it depends on the unspoken threat they represent to stay secure from conquest, and is thus subject to a certain amount of control.
 
Somic said:
Conquering Marienburg has one teeny tiny, tall-helmeted, magic-wielding problem with it. The Empire can't go at it without knowing whether the Asur will do another Grootsher Marsh, and even with the Colleges sending battlewizards, the cost can still be ruinously high. The Empire's forces are spread thin already, it cannot afford that.

This is why we had the option to lean on the Asur to force concessions from Marienburg - because it depends on the unspoken threat they represent to stay secure from conquest, and is thus subject to a certain amount of control.
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Actually we do not know if it has that problem. The elves did not say 'hands off', they refused to say anything. Keep in mind that the last time it was not Ulthuan itself that helped break the imperial siege, it was elven mages in the city together with an army of mercenaries.
 
Somic said:
Conquering Marienburg has one teeny tiny, tall-helmeted, magic-wielding problem with it. The Empire can't go at it without knowing whether the Asur will do another Grootsher Marsh, and even with the Colleges sending battlewizards, the cost can still be ruinously high. The Empire's forces are spread thin already, it cannot afford that.

This is why we had the option to lean on the Asur to force concessions from Marienburg - because it depends on the unspoken threat they represent to stay secure from conquest, and is thus subject to a certain amount of control.
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It's also the reason why the canal is good - it doesn't threaten the Asur, just Marienburg; all we're doing is removing the monopoly without removing the reason that Ulthuan has a toehold on the continent.

If anything, this semi solidifies their relationship with Marienburg, as their patronage is only going to become more important as Marienburg's economic dominance wanes.
 
Alratan said:
On the other hand, canals are very expensive to build and also expensive to maintain, and the tolls probably need to be high enough to cover those costs.
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Mopman43 said:
Barak Varr supported Belegar's expedition because they knew a retaken K8P would mean much greater profit for them from the increased traffic on that portion of the Silk Road.

I think they're far-thinking enough to know that not gouging customers on canal-fees will get them more profit in the long run.
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Dwarves of the Karaz Ankor don't charge what they think the market can bear, they charge what they think the good or service is worth, scrupulously. There was a word of Boney a while back saying this'd apply to canal fees too, and that they wouldn't change their tolls based on the cargo being carried like other places might, because the service being provided - making it possible for a boat to travel through the canal, and allowing them to do so - wouldn't be changing. IIRC this translates to reasonably cheap rates.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Dwarves of the Karaz Ankor don't charge what they think the market can bear, they charge what they think the good or service is worth, scrupulously. There was a word of Boney a while back saying this'd apply to canal fees too, and that they wouldn't change their tolls based on the cargo being carried like other places might, because the service being provided - making it possible for a boat to travel through the canal, and allowing them to do so - wouldn't be changing. IIRC this translates to reasonably cheap rates.
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Though I believe they do their best to make up the difference where they can- like Karak Kadrin requiring that all carts passing through having official certification to pass and requiring that they can't be transferred.
 
Mopman43 said:
Though I believe they do their best to make up the difference where they can- like Karak Kadrin requiring that all carts passing through having official certification to pass and requiring that they can't be transferred.
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Only trick they are pulling there is that anybody that tries to pass with transfered or fake certificates on cart causes dwarves to seize cargo rather than just turning cart away. But not allowing certificate to transfer is fair enough. I would not be suprised if certificates are costing on the basis of how much cargo they can carry so transfering would be cheating.
 
"You want a canal? But the whole basis of our deal was that the Everchosen might arrive any year now. A canal will take a decade and a half to dig, and provides nothing before it's completely finished. When the war begins, we'll have to abandon the dig site. While the war continues, it will decay. When the war ends, our manpower will be gone, and what remains will be needed to rebuild the cities."

"Dig the hole, Boris."
 
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On an unrelated topic:

Given that Mathilde was declared to have a dwarven soul, is she now able to formally register a (dwarven) grudge?

What would happen if she did?
 
She is not a member of Karaz Ankor, so it won't matter that much aside from dorfs expecting her to act on that grudge at some point - if things go sufficiently public.
 
naths said:
On an unrelated topic:

Given that Mathilde was declared to have a dwarven soul, is she now able to formally register a (dwarven) grudge?

What would happen if she did?
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From earlier discussion of this question:
henkalv said:
So, since the Karaz Ankor consider Mathilde a dwarf, or at least her soul as dwarven, does that mean it'll start levying grudges on her behalf if something wrongs her?

Edit: Karaz Ankle, thanks autocorrupt.
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Boney said:
Not of their own accord. The way the system works is that a Dwarf who is wronged and cannot right matters themselves escalates it to their Clan's leadership, and if the Clan decides it's a valid Grudge they resolve it if they can and escalate it further to their King if they can't, and from there if it can't be resolved in the immediate term it gets entered into the Karak's Book of Grudges. Mathilde could interface with this by either claiming Clanless status and petitioning Belegar directly or by claiming to be head of Clan Weber and escalating it to Belegar as her Clan's King.
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So the short answer to your question is "yes," the long answer is "yes, but she would have to disambiguate her status as a dwarf and resolve it to either Clan Weber or Clanless."
 
Gavin Prince said:
[ ] Eike Actions: EIC insertion
[ ] Eike Study: Creative insults for Marienburgers
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Sending Eike on some intelligence mission about Marienburg fleet would play into her BOAT interests and might not be a joke idea at all.

Edit to avoid doublepost:
picklepikkl said:
From earlier discussion of this question:


So the short answer to your question is "yes," the long answer is "yes, but she would have to disambiguate her status as a dwarf and resolve it to either Clan Weber or Clanless."
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I think it would be easier for her to register a Grudge earlier, when she was official Loremaster of a King.
 
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