Although if we were to decline payment, I suspect the best way to phrase that would be along the lines of "I am oathbound to oppose Chaos via any and all means available to me—this is merely an extension of my duty, nothing more or less."
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
mad respect for those who voted yes cause it just been a while since we did some exciting covert murder 🫡 : v
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doable, doable, not doable (the killing of magical men is something the ice witches do with unofficial acceptance of the state and will continue doing without.)
Actually I think I can accomplish all my objectives and then some with opening trade. We use the EIC and the Library. Trade will give more money to Kislev helping them prepare and build up. If we have to right to copy books for money Eight Peaks is paying for it so we can use the EIC to transport the books. If the EIC just so happens to have some male escorts/guides/whatever we need to say and bring them south that is because they are tradesmen going south. If those boys or men happen to find a talent for magic oh well.
refusing payment, for anything really, has this nasty habit of making you look weird.
it makes people ask: 'why would you refuse being paid?' 'what have i not noticed?'
a fundamental thing about being part of a civilisation is the social expectations, and part of that expectation is that no one does something for free. even amongst family that is true, it's just what they are getting paid in is minor favours, good will, and assistance.
if they arn't asking you for payment now, that just means they'll ask later. and, as should be fairly obvious to everyone, having a debt hanging over you is not good for your mental health.
it doesn't matter if they tell you it won't cost you anything, that is an obvious lie. the most obvious lie, and oldest trick in the book.
a lack of closure is likewise bad for ones mental health, and until the assassin is paid off and on their way, the matter is not closed. job isn't done until money has changed hands. people do not deal with uncertainty well, nor do they do well with people who act in ways unpredictable.
We must get paid something, if only so the thought of a debt unpaid to an incredibly dangerous assassin does not hang over boris' head forever. it does not matter what we get paid, but the money has to change hands. there must not be a debt left unpaid. and just saying that there is no debt is not enough, because it still exists. a service was rendered.
it makes people ask: 'why would you refuse being paid?' 'what have i not noticed?'
a fundamental thing about being part of a civilisation is the social expectations, and part of that expectation is that no one does something for free. even amongst family that is true, it's just what they are getting paid in is minor favours, good will, and assistance.
if they arn't asking you for payment now, that just means they'll ask later. and, as should be fairly obvious to everyone, having a debt hanging over you is not good for your mental health.
it doesn't matter if they tell you it won't cost you anything, that is an obvious lie. the most obvious lie, and oldest trick in the book.
a lack of closure is likewise bad for ones mental health, and until the assassin is paid off and on their way, the matter is not closed. job isn't done until money has changed hands. people do not deal with uncertainty well, nor do they do well with people who act in ways unpredictable.
We must get paid something, if only so the thought of a debt unpaid to an incredibly dangerous assassin does not hang over boris' head forever. it does not matter what we get paid, but the money has to change hands. there must not be a debt left unpaid. and just saying that there is no debt is not enough, because it still exists. a service was rendered.
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- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
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- He/Him
Oh, maybe, it's a bit gauche to ask for payment from a friend when they've asked you to kill a parent, something they see as nessecary but are still unhappy about it.
Just sayin.
Just sayin.
I see where you are coming from, but it should be noted that opening trade is more openly mercenary than just asking for books, it literally makes Mathilde money, even if it is as income and not a lump sum.
Er while I respect Boris I think it is something of a stretch to call a man we have met three times in total 'friend'. We are not doing this because he is our bosom buddy, we are doing it because we trust him to be a better leader and Chaos is coming.
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the matter being debated is not about asking for payment.
it is about refusing it. payment has been offered. we must actively refuse it, to not be paid.
and, for another matter, we arn't boris' friend. we are a comrade in the fight against chaos, and a foreign intrigue based agent. and that's about it.
Somic
It's meow or never
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- She/Her
Boris is not a friend. He is certainly friendly, and so are we to him, but this is the matter of a Tsarevich asking a foreign Lord Magister to assassinate the Tzar. It is deadly serious, has wide-reaching political repercussions, and draws on our authority and specialization as a Grey Wizard, and Boris's duty to his people as the heir to the throne.
It is not an ask between friends, and treating it as such introduces a far worse dissonance.
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- Actually pretty lost
We've met the guy twice before this, so "friend" is really overstating things, and he's literally asking us what our payment should be.
Beyond that, the fact that this is an extremely high-risk endeavour changes things. If he was asking for something we could give freely without any risk at all then he still ought to be paying for it, but taking a big risk changes things quite a lot. He's not just asking for something we can hand over or spend a little time doing, he's asking us to put our neck on the line, here.
...Also, maybe a little unrelated, but if you have a highly valuable specialist skill that your friend wants to make use of, they should be paying you, or at least offering to. You can offer friendly rates, or do it for free if you so choose, but it shouldn't be the expectation. If they're your friend, they won't want to take advantage of you!
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Nah, obviously, what we need to do is offer to pay Boris for giving us the opportunity to assassinate his father.
Now, the question is, do we set a price, and if so what, or do we wait and see what Boris wants from us afterwards?
Now, the question is, do we set a price, and if so what, or do we wait and see what Boris wants from us afterwards?
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So, for me, this isn't a friend thing, this is an allies thing. More specifically, this is a 'necessary prerequisite for a functional alliance' thing. We are not doing this as a favor for a friend, we are not doing it for rewards, we are doing it because, fundamentally, we also need it done. And sure he's offering to pay us, but that's because he needs it even more and isn't aware of the degree to which we need it.
We don't need it done as badly as he does, so we certainly could get away with charging him, but charging him something beyond the requirements of an alliance against Chaos seems incorrect on both an interpersonal level (since we come off as mercenary rather than real allies if we're not very careful), and a moral level since we'd be demanding pay for something we'd do anyway. We should absolutely make his commitment to such an alliance a hard commitment, and make it clear we're doing this to secure such an alliance because Chaos needs to be stopped, but phrasing that as a 'price' seems wrong to me, as does trying to get other things out of him because 'he'd do that anyway'...he would, but we'd kill the Tzar anyway as well.
Like, if a disinterested but extremely reliable intelligence report told us that 'the Tzar needs to die for an effective response against Chaos to be organized' and 'if he is assassinated there will be no major investigation, if he is not there will be a civil war' I'm pretty sure we'd still be committing regicide, and doing so for free. The fact it was brought to us by someone who could pay us and needs it done even worse than we do shouldn't change that, I don't think.
We don't need it done as badly as he does, so we certainly could get away with charging him, but charging him something beyond the requirements of an alliance against Chaos seems incorrect on both an interpersonal level (since we come off as mercenary rather than real allies if we're not very careful), and a moral level since we'd be demanding pay for something we'd do anyway. We should absolutely make his commitment to such an alliance a hard commitment, and make it clear we're doing this to secure such an alliance because Chaos needs to be stopped, but phrasing that as a 'price' seems wrong to me, as does trying to get other things out of him because 'he'd do that anyway'...he would, but we'd kill the Tzar anyway as well.
Like, if a disinterested but extremely reliable intelligence report told us that 'the Tzar needs to die for an effective response against Chaos to be organized' and 'if he is assassinated there will be no major investigation, if he is not there will be a civil war' I'm pretty sure we'd still be committing regicide, and doing so for free. The fact it was brought to us by someone who could pay us and needs it done even worse than we do shouldn't change that, I don't think.
Somic
It's meow or never
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Nop:
We see how we do on the assassination first. The discussion in the thread, as I see it, is just musing on the possibilities and arguing about the most contentious topic currently present, not actually making that call right now.
The thing is you cannot really charge someone 'alliance against Chaos' and he is asking to be charged. Boris said 'name your price'. More than that he made sure to specify that the favor is transferable which actually makes it even more valuable. Turning around and saying 'in the name of our alliance all we need is for you to fight Chaos' feels a little insulting because the assumption behind that is that he might not have fought chaos if we did not do this, that there was any question of him hating Chaos guts. Now to most nations I do not think that implication would bite quite so bad, but Kislev... yeah I do not think he would take it as well as you might hope
There is also the fact that a significant part of why we are doing this with overwhelming support is that Boris blackmailed us into it with the threat of civil war. That is not the same thing as a 'disinterested but extremely reliable intelligence report'
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- Actually pretty lost
I don't really lend much credence to the idea that Boris, heir of Kislev, doesn't know why the Empire might want Kislev to successfully fend off Chaos.
It's also very fundamentally not how alliances work? Like, at all? Allied countries constantly buy and sell things to one another? Even when they themselves want the other party to have that thing? This is a genuinely baffling take, to me.
We absolutely would not be killing the Tsar on our own initiative. We've known he's a crappy Tsar for years, and that Kislev needs to prepare for an incoming Everchosen, and no one has ever brought up offing Vladimir ourselves. Boris asking for it has changed a great deal.
It's the weirdest brainworm, I swear. My best guess is it's from trying to model international relations as if you were trading personal favours with your mates, and also dramatically undervaluing what's being asked for down to the level of a friend asking for help with their coursework, or something.
- Location
- North Wales
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Do you still begrudge Thorek for demanding that we perform tasks for him in exchange for his participation in the Waystone Project? After all, we are a strong and proven ally of the Karaz Ankor, and the fruits of the work would benefit both our polity and his in the shared struggle against Chaos. Surely he should have been willing to do it for free.
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Sure, but they don't charge for things that are fundamental to the alliance. Boris is not charging us for the tributary stuff because he needs that same as we do. Likewise, we need this same as he does so charging for it is odd to say the least. Like, we need this to happen, so charging for what we need to do anyway is the odd part.
Boris asking changed because of the new information he provided (the lack of progress, the way it isn't going to get better, the civil war, and the fact that any investigation into us will be in the hands of someone friendly), not because he offered to pay us.
Bit of a different situation there. Thorek was not in a situation where he needed to get involved in the Waystone Project anyway and would've done so for free absent payment...I think we are in a situation where we need to kill the Tzar regardless of being paid. Which changes the calculus a fair bit.
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Somic
It's meow or never
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Don't Paranoth and Mira both want the Empire to be stable and safe from an overabundance of Chaotic energies?
Doesn't Thorek want to bolster the Dwarven part of the network, which is in need of more energy?
Haven't the Grey Lords been complaining for centuries about how the shrinking of Laurelorn's network inconveniences them?
Do we resent any of these people for laying out conditions and extracting payment for their contributions? Not really, no. Mathilde, though she may grumble, is fluent in the language of boons and favors. Such a thing is essential for dealings of the kind that involves unique skills and highly consequential endeavors.
I am sure that Boris, having approached us with a blank check on the price, will not at all be put out if we do exactly what he's asking for and choose the kind of payment Mathilde tends to choose.
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- Actually pretty lost
Boris isn't charging for the tributaries because they're explicitly helping him much more than us - he's the one who'd be paying for it, which is why getting the Boyars to pay for it is a no-go. It is, in fact, explicitly a counterexample, demonstrating how allies sell services to one another all the time.
EDIT: Actually, that might be overreaching - he's paying for the manpower etc., but might not paying the Waystone Project for the concept, since Kislev is already a member of the Project. He's paying for the individual casters to do the work though, I'm pretty sure, which is still an example.
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Perhaps we offer our services for more assassinations?
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- North Wales
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You honestly think we would have set aside an AP to murder the Tzar, out of the blue, without prompting by Boris?
After all, if it was something we needed to do regardless, then we would be looking to do it in the future on our own recognisance, no?
If we had to put together a list of allies who need killing so that the Old World can have competent leadership when the Everchosen invades, I reckon Vladimir wouldn't have even made it into the top 5.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
I absoulutely disagree. Infact we know for a fact we were not going to do this before this from the fact that we have never talked about it in the thread despite Ice Witch Granny practically going, "will no one will rid of me this troublesome Tzar" and we just completely ignored it as not our problem.