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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
If we had to put together a list of allies who need killing so that the Old World can have competent leadership when the Everchosen invades, I reckon Vladimir wouldn't have even made it into the top 5.
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Maybe we should make payment for sorting out the Iron Orcs "Tell us who the biggest idiot in the Bretonnian court is. Does he have a particular balcony he likes to look out from?"
 
Somic said:
Do we resent any of these people for laying out conditions and extracting payment for their contributions? Not really, no. Mathilde, though she may grumble, is fluent in the language of boons and favors. Such a thing is essential for dealings of the kind that involves unique skills and highly consequential endeavors.
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The Waystone Project is fairly different from a big one off job for a lot of reasons. One is that it's ongoing, preventing them from accomplishing anything else (or, well, hindering that long term anyway), another is that it is in no way urgent, it does not need to be done right now...we want to do it now, not need to do it now, it is not super time sensitive. A third is that it's not a fundamental cornerstone of the alliances we have with any of those people...there are things that are, but the Waystone Project is not among them.

Inasmuch as we have an alliance with Boris, fighting Chaos is the heart of it. Enabling that to occur is thus not something we should charge for beyond making that alliance official.

Deathbybunnies said:
Boris isn't charging for the tributaries because they're explicitly helping him much more than us - he's the one who'd be paying for it, which is why getting the Boyars to pay for it is a no-go. It is, in fact, explicitly a counterexample, demonstrating how allies sell services to one another all the time.
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I don't really agree, but even ignoring this specific example, there are lots of things involved in alliances where the parties don't charge each other because doing the thing is fundamental to the alliance. In a defensive military alliance, when one nation is attacked the other moves to defend it, they do not charge for that service because it is fundamental to the alliance existing and working at all.

Likewise, IMO, in an anti-Chaos alliance enabling the other nation to meaningfully oppose Chaos is fundamental rather than something that should be charged for.

Gavin Prince said:
You honestly think we would have set aside an AP to murder the Tzar, out of the blue, without prompting by Boris?

After all, if it was something we needed to do regardless, then we would be looking to do it in the future on our own recognisance, no?
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We didn't know we needed to, the information Boris provided was what made that clear. I already went into the 'got the info but not the offer' scenario, and I think we would indeed still do it then. There's even an argument we should be paying him something here for giving us such good intelligence on upcoming internal issues in the nation of Kislev...that argument isn't correct, due to the request he's making and the self-serving nature of what he's doing, but that's rather my point: He's giving us vital intelligence for free here, because that's needed to make any alliance work, and for us to do what he wants us to. Likewise, we need to kill the Tzar for any alliance to work and for him to do the stuff we want him to.

We are getting the vast majority of what we want out of him by killing the Tzar already, asking for more seems inappropriate in that context.

Tasoli said:
I absoulutely disagree. Infact we know for a fact we were not going to do this before this from the fact that we have never talked about it in the thread despite Ice Witch Granny practically going, "will no one will rid of me this troublesome Tzar" and we just completely ignored it as not our problem.
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I mean, again, 'not going to improve' and 'there will be a civil war' are new information that changes that calculus quite a bit and makes our intervention a lot more necessary, IMO. We weren't planning on it previously because we lacked information we now possess.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
If we had to put together a list of allies who need killing so that the Old World can have competent leadership when the Everchosen invades, I reckon Vladimir wouldn't have even made it into the top 5.
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I think that maybe depends on whether we're allowed to count groups like "most of Marienburg's leadership" as a single kill.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I don't really agree, but even ignoring this specific example, there are lots of things involved in alliances where the parties don't charge each other because doing the thing is fundamental to the alliance. In a defensive military alliance, when one nation is attacked the other moves to defend it, they do not charge for that service because it is fundamental to the alliance existing and working at all.

Likewise, IMO, in an anti-Chaos alliance enabling the other nation to meaningfully oppose Chaos is fundamental rather than something that should be charged for.
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Defensive alliances with treaties and specific clauses in those treaties detailing how to act in those circumstances? The ones where all of the favour-trading was done beforehand, when the treaty was being signed?

Kislev and the Empire don't have a mutual defence treaty, to my knowledge. They do not have a formal alliance. And if they did, it would never, ever, under any circumstance, have clauses detailing "and here's where you should murder the leader of the other polity."
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Defensive alliances with treaties and specific clauses in those treaties detailing how to act in those circumstances? The ones where all of the favour-trading was done beforehand, when the treaty was being signed?

Kislev and the Empire don't have a mutual defence treaty, to my knowledge. They do not have a formal alliance. And if they did, it would never, ever, under any circumstance, have clauses detailing "and here's where you should murder the leader of the other polity."
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Which is why I suggested we get an actual alliance against Chaos out of him as our 'price'.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Which is why I suggested we get an actual alliance against Chaos out of him as our 'price'.
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So your argument as to why it's unreasonable to ask for an actual price is:
  1. Formal treaties mandate certain actions in certain situations.
  2. We don't have any such formal treaty
  3. You want to ask for a formal defensive treaty
  4. That would explicitly never cover the current situation anyway
I, uh, don't really follow.

Having said that, asking for an all-the-bells-and-whistles defensive treaty that favours the Empire to some degree would be a decent ask. (It'd have to favour the Empire, because in this case we'd have to present it to the emperor and have him actually want to sign it.)
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I mean, again, 'not going to improve' and 'there will be a civil war' are new information that changes that calculus quite a bit and makes our intervention a lot more necessary, IMO. We weren't planning on it previously because we lacked information we now possess.
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Let me simplfy it then. What I am saying is if Boris had not outright asked us and went with civil war we would still not go and kill the current Tzar. I am certain general look of the thread would be that it was an internal matter for Kislev and while it sucks it is not our place to interfere in their politics.

If you think otherwise, -that thread would vote for helping Boris without any prompthing,- then we are in complete disagreement.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
We didn't know we needed to, the information Boris provided was what made that clear. I already went into the 'got the info but not the offer' scenario, and I think we would indeed still do it then. There's even an argument we should be paying him something here for giving us such good intelligence on upcoming internal issues in the nation of Kislev...that argument isn't correct, due to the request he's making and the self-serving nature of what he's doing, but that's rather my point: He's giving us vital intelligence for free here, because that's needed to make any alliance work, and for us to do what he wants us to. Likewise, we need to kill the Tzar for any alliance to work and for him to do the stuff we want him to.

We are getting the vast majority of what we want out of him by killing the Tzar already, asking for more seems inappropriate in that context.
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This feels more than a little disingenuous, Boris did not provide information, he is the proximal cause of the civil war to come and he aked for us to kill his father. If someone else (trustworthy enough which is a big ask on its own) had just given us the info that civil war was coming but we did not know Boris was fine with an assassination there is a decent chance we would not have gone for an assassination as it would have risked the nightmare scenario where we managed it, got caught and not the Empire is at war with Kislev. Knowing that the Tsar to be is fine with his father getting stabbed in the back is a significant part of why we feel comfortable doing this, investigations are going to be a lot more superficial.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
So your argument as to why it's unreasonable to ask for an actual price is:
  1. Formal treaties mandate certain actions in certain situations.
  2. We don't have any such formal treaty
  3. You want to ask for a formal defensive treaty
  4. That would explicitly never current the current situation anyway

I, uh, don't really follow.

Having said that, asking for an all-the-bells-and-whistles defensive treaty that favours the Empire to some degree would be a decent ask. (It'd have to favour the Empire, because in this case we'd have to present it to the emperor and have him actually want to sign it.)
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My argument is that alliances are predicated on certain things. Formal alliances, sure, but informal ones as well. And the informal alliance we have with Boris is and will be predicated on working effectively together to oppose Chaos. Whether that's formal or informal is irrelevant to that being the core of the alliance.

Which means he needs to be able to effectively work together with us against Chaos, and so for that alliance to exist in meaningful form, this action needs to occur. And I don't think any alliance needs to be especially one-sided in the Empire's favor, though it obviously can't be one-sided in Kislev's favor.

Tasoli said:
Let me simplfy it then. What I am saying is if Boris had not outright asked us and went with civil war we would still not go and kill the current Tzar. I am certain general look of the thread would be that it was an internal matter for Kislev and while it sucks it is not our place to interfere in their politics.

If you think otherwise, -that thread would vote for helping Boris without any prompthing,- then we are in complete disagreement.
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I guess we're in disagreement then. I'm pretty sure if we'd been told 'there will be a civil war if you don't, and you won't be investigated very hard if you do' we would've done it.

DragonParadox said:
Knowing that the Tsar to be is fine with his father getting stabbed in the back is a significant part of why we feel comfortable doing this, investigations are going to be a lot more superficial.
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There is a reason I specified 'if we knew we wouldn't be investigated too much' in the hypothetical, yes. I've listed that in every hypothetical I proposed. My point is not that this is a likely scenario, it's to highlight that any offer of remuneration is entirely secondary to why we're doing this. We're doing this because we have reason to believe that it is necessary and that we can get away with it. Both are needed, but neither involves getting rewarded per se.
 
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Koguyra said:
Is the possible Elfcation also going to take into account the 99 days of Mathilde being able to temporarily bunk in Nagarythe's territory?
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What exactly do you mean? That is what the Elfcation is, going to Nagarythe to be taught about the fine art of killing Druchii (which may involve boosting Intrigue skills or learning some local Ulgu spells).
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
My argument is that alliances are predicated on certain things. Formal alliances, sure, but informal ones as well. And the informal alliance we have with Boris is and will be predicated on working effectively together to oppose Chaos. Whether that's formal or informal is irrelevant to that being the core of the alliance.

Which means he needs to be able to effectively work together with us against Chaos, and so for that alliance to exist in meaningful form, this action needs to occur. And I don't think any alliance needs to be especially one-sided in the Empire's favor, though it obviously can't be one-sided in Kislev's favor.
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We don't have an informal alliance with Boris. We don't have any alliance with Boris. We've met him twice, and the second time he gave us a reward for going out of our way to help Kislev.

Trying to bind our actions by the non-existent informal terms of an alliance that doesn't exist beyond you wanting it to isn't a real reason.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
There is a reason I specified 'if we knew we wouldn't be investigated' in the hypothetical, yes. I've listed that in every hypothetical I proposed. My point is not that this is a likely scenario, it's to highlight that any offer of remuneration is entirely secondary to why we're doing this. We're doing this because we have reason to believe that it is necessary and that we can get away with it. Both are needed, but neither involves getting rewarded per se.
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OK so in the situation where we knew his intentions and desires and what he would do in the event of an assassination we would probably kill Vladimir. Now I want you to consider how this miracle of insight could have gotten past Mathilde and our paranoia... This would look so much like a Chaos plot for anything less than a meeting and an ask. There is no reasonable way this would happen so there is no reason anyone IC would entertain the hypothetical when it comes to the payment Boris did in fact offer.
 
Somic said:
Verena: "Ranald is a thief and a liar, skulking in the shadows. He is entirely untrustworthy."
Verena: "As such, it is hard to believe that one of the greatest living contributors to my cause is a Ranaldite."
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Mathilde is a great wingman. She's doing so much work to fix his relationships with the in-laws. An old rake with a heart of gold and an eccentric young woman form an unlikely friendship and help each other proof their worth to the world. Feel-good movie of the year.
 
We shouldn't leave Boris hanging. Not asking for a price is the same as stashing it away, from an outsider's perspective. This is especially concerning seeing as how we will have just finished proving that we can kill the sovereign of Kislev.

Asking for all of Kislev's books on the other hand makes it very clear that the debt is paid, doesn't interfere with their preparations to fight chaos, can be covered up as preparations for that same war, and also gives us all of Kislev's books!
 
Prime 2.0 said:
We shouldn't leave Boris hanging. Not asking for a price is the same as stashing it away, from an outsider's perspective. This is especially concerning seeing as how we will have just finished proving that we can kill the sovereign of Kislev.

Asking for all of Kislev's books on the other hand makes it very clear that the debt is paid, doesn't interfere with their preparations to fight chaos, can be covered up as preparations for that same war, and also gives us all of Kislev's books!
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And also it actually preserves said books from the war, something they might well need. The only reason there is any hope of getting Fire Spire books is that we pulled Vlag out of the Aethyr. That is not something you can count on
 
I kind of wish we could have the Payment discussion after we've actually done the deed. It's just all going to get rehashed then anyway (and we've hit the point of constantly repeating the same arguments a while ago, I feel). But there's also not all that much to talk about until the next update drops, so I understand why people do it. It's not like I'm not tempted.

Should we murder him has closed, and how should we murder him runs has the same problem as what to get for payment. Same for the other eternal alternative of what should we spend AP on or who social next (Boris and Kragg, obviously).

Actually, here's one: If our Gigaflex or Dad-Attracting gets us another Great Deed, what should we spend it on?
 
BurnNote said:
I kind of wish we could have the Payment discussion after we've actually done the deed. It's just all going to get rehashed then anyway (and we've hit the point of constantly repeating the same arguments a while ago, I feel). But there's also not all that much to talk about until the next update drops, so I understand why people do it. It's not like I'm not tempted.
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Eh, that's campaigning for you. The most reliable way to win a vote is to convince everyone of your position long before the ballots are available.
 
I mean, we can wait to spend our Great Deeds. I'm not saying spending it is a bad idea, being afraid of spending it might make it like those RPG's where you have a million Elixirs after beating the game having never used one, but at the same time, we don't want to be in the situation where we want/need a Great Deed to accomplish/gain something but we don't have one cause we spent it on something we honestly didn't care about too much.

We should avoid never spending our Great Deeds out of fear of course, but at the same time, let's not spend them just to spend them.
 
BurnNote said:
Actually, here's one: If our Gigaflex or Dad-Attracting gets us another Great Deed, what should we spend it on?
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The problem with that discussion is that if there were anything we'd really really want, we already have an uncashed Great Deed from translating Queekish. I don't think anyone's managed to come up with anything worth spending that one on yet, beyond "Trained battle-griffin for Eike! Wolfship for Eike! A knighthood for Eike!"

I think one avenue we could do would be to use it to get a Priest on staff for WEBMAT, to start fiddling with Arcane/Divine material like windherding-enchanting a mixed artefact and examining the back-end of miracles in a more systematic way. Most of the Cults really don't want anyone fiddling with that, so a Great Deed is probably around the right size of favour to actually get it done. We'd have to come up with enough ideas to keep them occupied going forward, though, and we struggle at times to do that for the three staff members we already have. So, not tremendously enthused about that idea either.
 
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