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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Next update should be our approach, I believe. So that's when we get to decide how to do the stabbing.

(Thus we have to wait a bit longer to get to the actual stabbing part)
 
Byzantine said:
I believe the price is tbd after the fact. This is the kind of job that just by offering it he has to accept basically any price we name. Though obviously there are limits, but it's going to be… a lot.
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The main limit to consider is that Boris can't really be seen to openly favor Mathilde without apparently getting anything in return, right after his father dies.

So when it comes to repayment, stuff that can be hidden or glossed over or justified in other ways is effectively going to be much "cheaper" than more open forms of repayment.
 
I think a lot can be hidden by the Company. Mathilde has scribes copying the libraries of Kislev, the company sells weapons to Kislev at a small mark up. Mathilde wants gold favor trade deal on reagents , the company buys them at a mark up making people rich and help the people of Kislev make money. Actually I think if we can we can use these to help Kislev. Opening up trade can help pay for infrastructure and prepare for chaos. Just getting niter set up can arm Vrag.
 
I do honestly think we can sell library-sharing rights as Mathilde winning over the notably forward-thinking Boris, with the idea that even if a city or two falls, Kislev can rebuild more easily if it doesn't lose all of its literature and the institutional knowledge therein every time.
 
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I'm in favor of using the repayment to get stuff we normally would have no way of getting, like having Kislev help Vlag prepare to survive the Thirteenth Everchosen. Stuff like library access we could probably make a deal for with a library action, it seems like a waste of a Transcendent Boon equivalent to use it to get access to Kislev's libraries when there are so many other libraries we've yet to get around to copying.
 
I think given Kiselv's literature state, the boon might be more like having one of his reform priorities be increasing literacy and giving us access to all the results.
 
NexusEye said:
I'm in favor of using the repayment to get stuff we normally would have no way of getting, like having Kislev help Vlag prepare to survive the Thirteenth Everchosen. Stuff like library access we could probably make a deal for with a library action, it seems like a waste of a Transcendent Boon equivalent to use it to get access to Kislev's libraries when there are so many other libraries we've yet to get around to copying.
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Okay, but hear me out - what if they copied it for us? The way the Elementalists did.
 
NexusEye said:
I'm in favor of using the repayment to get stuff we normally would have no way of getting, like having Kislev help Vlag prepare to survive the Thirteenth Everchosen. Stuff like library access we could probably make a deal for with a library action, it seems like a waste of a Transcendent Boon equivalent to use it to get access to Kislev's libraries when there are so many other libraries we've yet to get around to copying.
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I think Kislev under Boris is going to do everything it can to maximise its chances of defeating Chaos, and I don't want to spend our boon adding strategic goals to complicate that.

Also, I'm not suggesting asking for a single library, I'm suggesting asking for a mandate to copy every library in the country, except possibly parts of some religious libraries. I don't even know how many AP that is in library actions to negotiate for access to all of them, not to mention stripping out complications in those negotiations. That seems like a decently large thing to ask for, and it both helps us and helps Kislev in the long run.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I think Kislev under Boris is going to do everything it can to maximise its chances of defeating Chaos, and I don't want to spend our boon adding strategic goals to complicate that.

Also, I'm not suggesting asking for a single library, I'm suggesting asking for a mandate to copy every library in the country, except possibly parts of some religious libraries. I don't even know how many AP that is in library actions to negotiate for access to all of them, not to mention stripping out complications in those negotiations. That seems like a decently large thing to ask for, and it both helps us and helps Kislev in the long run.
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The cost of aiding Vlag is mitigated by the fact that aiding Vlag means they can inflict attrition on Chaos as they travel through High Pass, weakening them when they finally reach Kislev. Also the cost to Kislev will probably be fairly small, even basics like food, leather, ore, and export subsidies for anything Vlag wants to buy will help them significantly. Vlag has a population of 20000, Kislev has a population in the millions, what's a drop in the bucket for Kislev will be a major windfall for Vlag.
 
NexusEye said:
The cost of aiding Vlag is mitigated by the fact that aiding Vlag means they can inflict attrition on Chaos as they travel through High Pass, weakening them when they finally reach Kislev. Also the cost to Kislev will probably be fairly small, even basics like food, leather, ore, and export subsidies for anything Vlag wants to buy will help them significantly. Vlag has a population of 20000, Kislev has a population in the millions, what's a drop in the bucket for Kislev will be a major windfall for Vlag.
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If helping Vlag helps defeat Chaos, I'd be surprised if they didn't do that anyway? Boris doesn't seem the type to skimp on supplying allies in this fight, if it's not going to negatively impact the fight against Chaos in other ways.

We'll see when the update drops, I suppose.
 
I'm not inclined to ask for payment. We're doing this because we agree with the necessity of it, not for mercenary reasons. We want an ally, not someone who thinks we're a hired assassin.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If helping Vlag helps defeat Chaos, I'd be surprised if they didn't do that anyway? Boris doesn't seem the type to skimp on supplying allies in this fight, if it's not going to negatively impact the fight against Chaos in other ways.

We'll see when the update drops, I suppose.
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They'll likely help Vlag but we could get them to help Vlag more than they otherwise would. It would hurt Kislev a bit but help Vlag and thus Karaz Ankor massively, resulting in an overall net positive for the Old World.
 
NexusEye said:
It's illegal in the sense that if we asked for permission right now it would be denied. It's legal in the sense that if we ask for forgiveness afterwards it would be granted and become legal retroactively. However ideally Mathilde should pull this off in such a way that makes sure we don't need to ask for permission or forgiveness and leave its legality undefined since there can be no answer to a question that never gets asked.
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Wow. We're really good at this whole Ulgu thing!
 
While a part of me wants to agree with Nexus and say that we should have Vlag and Kislev cooperate to make some great defenses for the future, I would assume Boris is already very open to the idea himself and needs no prompting. The first time we saw him he talked about how he went to talk to Vlag, so I don't doubt that he'd include them in any plans to defend Kislev.

Deathbybunnies said:
Also, I'm not suggesting asking for a single library, I'm suggesting asking for a mandate to copy every library in the country, except possibly parts of some religious libraries. I don't even know how many AP that is in library actions to negotiate for access to all of them, not to mention stripping out complications in those negotiations. That seems like a decently large thing to ask for, and it both helps us and helps Kislev in the long run.
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Normally, we would spend one AP per library or Cult or Karak to get arrangements, and then one AP to copy a single library. We cheated with Nuln by spending our Boon, and got five libraries' worth of arrangements as well as one immediate set of copies from the Elementalists. So the Nuln action was effectively worth 7~ AP. Possibly 8, if you consider that the Elementalists' books were mostly magical in nature and that there could have been some friction during their copying due to the scribes not understanding certain concepts, as well as having Kislevarin, Eltharin, and Indic books.

After the Battle of the Shirokij, we were presented with the following libraries to secure copying rights from due to Kislev's favor (the Ice Court's library is in a separate category):
[ ] [KISLEV] Library: Bokha Palace
After almost a thousand years of Kislev's often-tumultuous succession, it's anyone's guess what sort of books might have accumulated within the Palace Gospodarin, and what might have survived its near-destruction in the Great War.
[ ] [KISLEV] Library: University of Kislev
Significantly more modest than many equivalent institutions of the Empire but renowned in certain circles for the study of beasts and spirits, as the lines between the two are often blurred in Kislev.
[ ] [KISLEV] Library: Magnus Gardens of Praag
A surprising oasis of art and learning within the cursed city, the institutions of the Magnus Gardens produce some of the finest artists, musicians, and astrologers in the Old World.
[ ] [KISLEV] Library: Writer's Rooms of Kislev
The headquarters of the government-funded scribes for a mostly-illiterate country, Writer's Rooms boast over eight hundred years of the transcribed history and culture of Kislev.
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Now... Boney said that Vlag would be willing to make their own copies by using our Boon. I dunno if that's worth it, given that we don't even know if they do in fact have Fire Spire books. But if the same would apply to Kislev, and we can ask for them to copy an entire country's worth of books, that's... also worth 8 APs, and we'd immediately get all the books.

Is a Transcendent Boon worth that? I'm very tempted to say yes.
 
Honestly, I'm still in favor of pawning it off to the Empire and letting the emperor ask kislev for a favor. Kislev's fleet would be a big help in conquering Marienburg after all :V
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I'm not inclined to ask for payment. We're doing this because we agree with the necessity of it, not for mercenary reasons. We want an ally, not someone who thinks we're a hired assassin.
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This is a fairly common sentiment whenever payment for anything Mathilde does comes up. The solution is to use the resulting boon for something pro-social.

Our bringing the dwarves to rebuild Nuln's foundries was only possible because we had a boon from our rescue of the dwarves trapped underwater in the Skull River incident. At the time, several people argued strongly that we shouldn't accept payment for that rescue because we were only doing it as the right thing to do (or that we should pass the boon upwards to Belegar, as we did it while under his employ). But by accepting that payment, we ensured that even more positive things came out of Mathilde's efforts. Likewise, there was a strong sentiment of wanting to turn down the K8P Transcendant boon (or convince Belegar to put it towards the general good of his own people rather than something Mathilde wanted), until Boney insisted multiple times that leaving a debt like that unpaid would be corrosive to Belegar's mental well-being. And in the end, more good came out of using it.

Asking Boris to "pay it forward" in the direction of our choice doesn't diminish our other reasons for doing this.
 
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Wiggy said:
Honestly, I'm still in favor of pawning it off to the Empire and letting the emperor ask kislev for a favor. Kislev's fleet would be a big help in conquering Marienburg after all :V
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It'd be a bit tricky to tell the Emperor that they have a blank cheque with Kislev without immediately giving away why that would be, just from the timeline.

Gavin Prince said:
This is a fairly common sentiment whenever payment for anything Mathilde does comes up. The solution is to use the resulting boon for something pro-social.

Our bringing the dwarves to rebuild Nuln's foundries was only possible because we had a boon from our rescue of the dwarves trapped underwater in the Skull River incident. At the time, several people argued strongly that we shouldn't accept payment for that rescue because we were only doing it as the right thing to do. But by accepting that payment, we ensured that even more positive things came out of Mathilde's efforts. Likewise, there was a strong sentiment of wanting to turn down the K8P Transcendant boon, until Boney insisted multiple times that leaving a debt like that unpaid would be corrosive to Belegar's mental well-being. And in the end, more good came out of using it.

Asking Boris to "pay it forward" in the direction of our choice doesn't diminish our other reasons for doing this.
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Funnily enough, despite receiving payment for our work at K8P, Belegar is still extremely well-inclined towards us. If someone's grateful you've done something, they're generally still grateful even if they then reward you for it. People aren't machines who lose all associated sentiment upon balancing the books.
 
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Gavin Prince said:
This is a fairly common sentiment whenever payment for anything Mathilde does comes up. The solution is to use the resulting boon for something pro-social.
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I'm not saying we never ask Boris for anything, I'm saying that formalizing the arrangement or asking for something immediately or explicitly in exchange for this sends the wrong impression.

Deathbybunnies said:
Funnily enough, despite receiving payment for our work at K8P, Belegar is still extremely well-inclined towards us. If someone's grateful you've done something, they're generally still grateful even if they then reward you for it. People aren't machines who lose all associated sentiment upon balancing the books.
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Boris's emotional state regarding the person who killed his father is gonna be a lot more complicated than Belegar's high regard for someone who's done nothing but help him. Boris may consider it necessary, but we're still killing his father. That doesn't mean he's gonna hate Mathilde, but I think he'll be a lot more positively disposed to her if he believes that she's doing it for the same reasons he is rather than mercenary ones.
 
It is, admittedly, not a huge stretch to argue that getting a lot of books is in fact a pro-social benefit.

To really sell the illusion that Boris is not just giving it all away for free, we might be able to spend an action having our scribes give Kislev a good chunk of our library, too. They may need it in the coming years.
 
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