Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[chocolote12]

Engage with what though? All magic? Because that is literally Tzeench's domain. Any line we might choose to draw following an encounter with one of his daemons would be arbitrary and can be assumed to play into his hands as much as not drawing the line due to the future sight nonsense. As an example maybe that daemon was sent to scare us away from Liminal Real studies because continuing is what is going to give us the key to save the world. Tzeench specifically is a bad villain because he can be supremely powerful/knowledgeable due to his domains and supremely stupid due to the canonical habit of working against himself at the same time. Engaging with him is like engaging with the narrative equivalent of a Rorschach Test. What you put in is what you get.

Click to shrink...

But why? It could have said those words with perfect insight of how Mathilde would react, with a plan, with multiple plans or with no plan, it could have said them at random just because it thought they were funny or anything in between and it would have been in accordance to how Tzeench is treated in canon.

Click to shrink...

That's only true for, like, in universe Tzeench, though.

Very specifically, nobody who actually writes Tzeentch happens to live in the universe where it hypothetically exists, though.

For all that immersion in fiction is the point, one shouldn't be so caught up in it that it limits their ability to engage with the medium as entertainment. The forces of Chaos can tempt people like normal demons tempt people if that would make for a better story, no matter what color they are.

They can give good rewards, and act pleasantly, and keep deals, if any of that would help them fulfill their ultimate purpose of being entertaining bad guys.

 

[Glau]

Right, but that's basically saying that it never mattered at all if the demon showed up or not.

Do you think it matters?

 

[DragonParadox]

That's only true for, like, in universe Tzeench, though.

Very specifically, nobody who actually writes Tzeentch happens to live in the universe where it hypothetically exists, though.

For all that immersion in fiction is the point, one shouldn't be so caught up in it that it limits their ability to engage with the medium as entertainment. The forces of Chaos can tempt people like normal demons tempt people if that would make for a better story, no matter what color they are.

They can give good rewards, and act pleasantly, and keep deals, if any of that would help them fulfill their ultimate purpose of being entertaining bad guys.

Click to shrink...

One could do that sure then as the reader you are at the point of trying to read the GM or the author's mind as to how precisely they intend to actualize the nonsense that is Tzeench and to me at least that is neither fun nor engaging hence 'bad villain'.

Right, but that's basically saying that it never mattered at all if the demon showed up or not.

Do you think it matters?

Click to shrink...

The actual words the daemon made at Mathilde utterly meaningless by reason of both who delivered them and their contents. The trait on the other hand does matter in that it can be studied and engaged with, it has the consistency of actual mechanics which is where the quest format rescues the vagueness of canon

 

[Glau]

The actual words the daemon made at Mathilde utterly meaningless by reason of both who delivered them and their contents.

Click to shrink...

And that's exactly what I meant by feeling no need to engage with any of it.

 

[chocolote12]

One could do that sure then as the reader you are at the point of trying to read the GM or the author's mind as to how precisely they intend to actualize the nonsense that is Tzeench and to me at least that is neither fun nor engaging hence 'bad villain'.

Click to shrink...

Given that the point of writing is to take information out of your head and put it into other people's heads, it's kind of strange to act like picking up what other people are trying to put down is a supernatural act.

Chaos Demon is a two part word; you're so focused on the Chaos part that you ignore that people are capable of writing a coherent narrative which includes this villain. It's also a fully effective demon.

Right, but that's basically saying that it never mattered at all if the demon showed up or not.

Do you think it matters?

Click to shrink...

I don't know if this one is pointed at me, sorry, but I do personally think that a demon showing up matters. I was personally arguing against the notion that the specific kind of demon it was precluded it from mattering; that is to say, the notion that since it's a blue demon, it can't actually do any of the things a demon does, and so it is a worthless narrative road side attraction.

Rather than acknowledging that something they don't like exists, the thread often devolves into the argument that the thing they don't like doesn't exist, so there's nothing to worry about.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Honestly, I'd imagine that in an 'average' fight against a Chaos Champion, we would not be in the Chaos Wastes and also Ranald would not get in a divine matchup against one of the Four.

Click to shrink...

There's nothing odd about losing a fight with someone that's trained their whole life for that kind of fight and has the right equipment and divine backing.


Mathilde has been the ultimate generalist she's not necessarily the best at anything (though in terms of say Windsight or anti-Necromancy or understanding Skaven or dispelling Waaagh magic there's arguably nobody that's better - just equals) but she's extremely good at a lot of stuff and very solid at the rest.

This is going to put her at a disadvantage against people who are obsessed with getting good at one specific thing - particularly when that thing is beating wizards in melee.

 

[DragonParadox]

Given that the point of writing is to take information out of your head and put it into other people's heads, it's kind of strange to act like picking up what other people are trying to put down is a supernatural act.

Chaos Demon is a two part word; you're so focused on the Chaos part that you ignore that people are capable of writing a coherent narrative which includes this villain. It's also a fully effective demon.

Click to shrink...

The point if writing fanfiction or any other kind of derivative work is to base what you are writing on canon, in the case of Tzeench canon is made up of pure gibberish. The other way we could find out the limitations of Tzeench and his demons would be to engage with them on a deep and systematic level IC, but we cannot do that because of the whole Horrors Man Was Not Meant To Know (TM) aspect so at least from my perspective we are left with a large pile of nothing. This void can be filled with Wild Mass Guessing and paranoia which is at least for me not very fun to deal with.

 

[chocolote12]

The point if writing fanfiction or any other kind of derivative work is to base what you are writing in canon, in the case of Tzeench canon is made up of pure gibberish.

Click to shrink...

The point of writing fiction is to entertain. If some nebulous cloud of multiple other people's writing isn't comprehensible enough to work with or understand, why is it comprehensible enough that you can tell it's been changed?

Again, ignore the in-universe hype. Ignore what the writers make it say about itself. What does Tzeentch do? What are its symbols? What does its house look like?

These aren't un-answerable questions.

It resides in silver spires. It is guarded by crystal mazes. Its servants either eschew fixed and unchanging forms or take on the appearance of birds notable for their intelligence. It prefers cool colors like blue and purple, but not green. It prefers that things change rather than stagnate, and that people believe things can change rather than believing that nothing they do can work. Its servants are wizards and those who work with magic. It glories in intellectualism and academia.

None of that is gibberish. It's almost numbingly simple and straightforward. There are wizard demons in hell and they are ruled by the most wizardiest of all the demons, who is magic itself. They prefer making wizard problems and providing wizard solutions, and in the best case doing both of those things with mortal wizards involved.

 

[DragonParadox]

The point of writing fiction is to entertain. If some nebulous cloud of multiple other people's writing isn't comprehensible enough to work with or understand, why is it comprehensible enough that you can tell it's been changed?

Again, ignore the in-universe hype. Ignore what the writers make it say about itself. What does Tzeentch do? What are its symbols? What does its house look like?

These aren't un-answerable questions.

It resides in silver spires. It is guarded by crystal mazes. Its servants either eschew fixed and unchanging forms or take on the appearance of birds notable for their intelligence. It prefers cool colors like blue and purple, but not green. It prefers that things change rather than stagnate, and that people believe things can change rather than believing that nothing they do can work. Its servants are wizards and those who work with magic. It glories in intellectualism and academia.

None of that is gibberish. It's almost numbingly simple and straightforward. There are wizard demons in hell and they are ruled by the most wizardiest of all the demons, who is magic itself. They prefer making wizard problems and providing wizard solutions, and in the best case doing both of those things with mortal wizards involved.

Click to shrink...

But that is not what it is, or at least not the part I care about for the purposes of engaging with its long term plans, we do not understand its limitations or its plans vis a vis Mathilde and we have no way to change that IC. Canon does not help because 'means and limitations' is where the gibberish hype and contradictions live.

*sigh* Honestly I think at this point we are just debating preferences for aspects of Warhammer fantasy. It's not as though there is any practical action we can do next turn that can be derived from all this, at least none that I can think of. If I am wrong, now or later I would be very interested hearing about it, until then I might as well put my money where my mouth it and not talk about the thing I do not enjoy talking about.

 

[NSMS]

Tzeentch is an indecisive mollusc.

 

[Parabola]

There's nothing odd about losing a fight with someone that's trained their whole life for that kind of fight and has the right equipment and divine backing.

Click to shrink...

I'm not saying it's weird we lost. I'm only saying this was not an 'ordinary' Chaos Champion, if there is such a thing. We were fighting on the doorsteps of Literally Hell, which was likely a reason why his collar was getting boosted by Khorne. We had a +20 from combat spells in that first round alone, then afterward it was gone because Ranald lost vs Khorne. Ergo, in an ordinary fight where Khorne is not involved, we probably would have had the upper hand the whole time.

 

[reignonyrparade]

But Chaos doesn't care about losing. Every fight costs the good guys and Chaos has an unlimited reserve of stupid self destructive idiots to throw at them. It's not that chaos ever wins the battles. It is that Chaos will inevitably win the war because Chaos losing battles doesn't actually matter. Chaos can recover. Order cannot.

Click to shrink...

RIGHT up until end times this really wasn't how fantasy specifically was presented. Instead the good guys were getting MORE capable as time goes on while the gifts of the chaos gods were basically staying the same. Chaos could still win but they didn't have many more everchosen in the tank before basically the foundries of the old world and the college of magic and every other institution that is churning out Things To Fight The Next Chaos Invasion was putting out more than chaos would be able to handle. Archaeon was realistically the last GOOD shot the chaos gods really had.

 

[Wiadi]

And that's exactly what I meant by feeling no need to engage with any of it.

Click to shrink...

I mean, the tricky bit is that character & narrative incentives kinda run face-first into one another here. Narratively, sure, it's more interesting if we engage with the events on the page than if we ignore them. Unfortunately, from a character-motivation perspective, it's entirely justifiable - and honestly probably just correct - for Mathilde to refuse the demon's words much or all engagement. And this will remain just as correct even if it turns out in hindsight that heeding them could've turned out better.

The real issue with making Chaos tempting, IMO, is that it's too one-note. There's no hubristic urge to think you'll be one of the lucky ones who gets away with it when there are no lucky ones who get away with it. Unless I'm forgetting something relevant (in which case do please share), the only people who even kind of get what they want out of dealing with Chaos are the ones who fully give themselves over to it, thereby aligning their desires with its outcomes rather than the reverse.

 

[NSMS]

RIGHT up until end times this really wasn't how fantasy specifically was presented. Instead the good guys were getting MORE capable as time goes on while the gifts of the chaos gods were basically staying the same. Chaos could still win but they didn't have many more everchosen in the tank before basically the foundries of the old world and the college of magic and every other institution that is churning out Things To Fight The Next Chaos Invasion was putting out more than chaos would be able to handle. Archaeon was realistically the last GOOD shot the chaos gods really had.

Click to shrink...

Yes and no. While the Empire, etc, is growing in power to the point where they might be able to effectively blockade off the wastes in a few hundred years, remember that the elves and dwarves once drove Chaos back just as effectively. Chaos can afford to keep trying and waiting, because no matter what advantages the forces of order gain? They can will eventually fade in glory, or be brought down by infighting, or have that one ruler who succumbs to corruption. And when that happens... Chaos will still be there, waiting to take advantage of it. It might take a hundred years. It might take a thousand, or ten thousand, or more. But unless the Polar Gates are closed (which might not even be possible, at this point), Chaos will always have the opportunity to make a comeback.

 

[Omegahugger]

We could be surrounded by dead bugs and other pests if Pan had gone for our brilliant weeding plan!

Click to shrink...

I initially misread this as "our brilliant wedding plan" and, you know what, the sentence still works.

 

[NSMS]

I mean, the tricky bit is that character & narrative incentives kinda run face-first into one another here. Narratively, sure, it's more interesting if we engage with the events on the page than if we ignore them. Unfortunately, from a character-motivation perspective, it's entirely justifiable - and honestly probably just correct - for Mathilde to refuse the demon's words much or all engagement. And this will remain just as correct even if it turns out in hindsight that heeding them could've turned out better.

The real issue with making Chaos tempting, IMO, is that it's too one-note. There's no hubristic urge to think you'll be one of the lucky ones who gets away with it when there are no lucky ones who get away with it. Unless I'm forgetting something relevant (in which case do please share), the only people who even kind of get what they want out of dealing with Chaos are the ones who fully give themselves over to it, thereby aligning their desires with its outcomes rather than the reverse.

Click to shrink...

Chaos isn't tempting to people who are content with their lives or in healthy, stable situations. It's among the people who've spent their whole life being beaten down, or who are full of hubris and used to getting what they want, or who've found a goal they value more than their own lives that Chaos finds most of its victims. Plus, of course, the people who are born into its worship.

 

[Glau]

The real issue with making Chaos tempting, IMO, is that it's too one-note. There's no hubristic urge to think you'll be one of the lucky ones who gets away with it when there are no lucky ones who get away with it. Unless I'm forgetting something relevant (in which case do please share), the only people who even kind of get what they want out of dealing with Chaos are the ones who fully give themselves over to it, thereby aligning their desires with its outcomes rather than the reverse.

Click to shrink...

This right here is definitely one of the big issues: what is told is badly out of alignment with what is shown.

Chaos is said to be tempting and corruptive and insidious, but chaos is shown to be something that anyone with two braincells knows better than to touch, and it's clear there are no payoffs to going along with them.

Really undermines the whole temptation thing, like a casino where it is known that no one has ever won anything. Even compulsive gamblers would avoid it like the plague.

Fortunately, there are easy fixes: just create and highlight 'one of the lucky ones'.

 

[Omegahugger]

Chaos isn't tempting to people who are content with their lives or in healthy, stable situations. It's among the people who've spent their whole life being beaten down, or who are full of hubris and used to getting what they want, or who've found a goal they value more than their own lives that Chaos finds most of its victims. Plus, of course, the people who are born into its worship.

Click to shrink...

If Chaos had offered Mathilde a way to bring Abel back I absolutely would've voted for taking it back in the day.

Not now though. If they didn't want Mathilde at her lowest they don't deserve her at her highest!

 

[BurnNote]

I initially misread this as "our brilliant wedding plan" and, you know what, the sentence still works.

Click to shrink...

I think a weeding wedding could work pretty well for Panoramia. But it's my headcanon that Mathilde severly sucks at weeding (it's all green stuff, and even if she recognises some from the books, she's terrible at getting it out), to the point that she gets very good at it if you're willing to abandon sanity and accept Gazul into your life. And neither are the type to want him involved in their wedding.

Ranald gets to come though. He can be best man (Heidi in with a mustache can sub in).

 

[Deathbybunnies]

This right here is definitely one of the big issues: what is told is badly out of alignment with what is shown.

Chaos is said to be tempting and corruptive and insidious, but chaos is shown to be something that anyone with two braincells knows better than to touch, and it's clear there are no payoffs to going along with them.

Really undermines the whole temptation thing, like a casino where it is known that no one has ever won anything. Even compulsive gamblers would avoid it like the plague.

Fortunately, there are easy fixes: just create and highlight 'one of the lucky ones'.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, it's probably more obvious to us out-of-universe with all of the information at hand than it is to Joe Bloggs, mayor of the village of Nowhere, when they make promises that for all he knows, might be true.

 

[reignonyrparade]

Tbh it's mostly just Tzeentch Specifically that writes checks he has no intention of cashing. Nurgle, Khorne, you'll usually get what you pay for, even in the long term. Slaneesh you'll get what you pay for in the short term and the "target market" is mostly those who the short term is good enough for.

 

[Boney]

Chaos is said to be tempting and corruptive and insidious, but chaos is shown to be something that anyone with two braincells knows better than to touch, and it's clear there are no payoffs to going along with them.

Click to shrink...

There's no prosocial and ethical payoffs to going along with them. People who don't care about the collateral damage absolutely can and frequently do achieve selfish goals through Chaos.

 

[Mopman43]

Instead the good guys were getting MORE capable as time goes on

Click to shrink...

Well, the Empire was.

Dwarfs and Elves have of course been declining for millennia, and Bretonnia has been in a bit of a stasis. Kislev never really got enough attention from GW to be part of the overarching narrative, though it was certainly on an upward curve.

(For Dwarfs you could point to Thorgrim leading a resurgence narrative, 'retake the realm, empty the Book', though the closest thing the High Elves had to that was Tyrion and Teclis specifically I think)

On a strict comparison between the Great War Against Chaos to the upcoming Everchosen #13, outside of arbitrary 'the Chaos Gods decided to be serious this time' reasons, the main question is of course the relative power of the two forces.

With Order, it's mainly about:

• Is the Empire sufficiently united to present an effective force to contest Chaos?
• Is Kislev recovered enough to reach the strength they had for the GWAC, or better?
• Will Bretonnia be present for this one, or busy with another civil war? (Such as Mallobaude in canon)
• How will the force the Dwarfs contribute compare to that in the GWAC?
• Will the High Elves send more or will they be kept busy by the Druchii again?

Depending on the answers to those questions, the army opposing Chaos might be substantially stronger or weaker than that that Magnus the Pious led. The Empire's magic situation at least should be substantially improved, unless Teclis and his immediate students outweigh the entire modern Colleges on the battlefield.

Then for Chaos:

• Will Archaon/whoever bring even more tribes and Warriors of Chaos than Asavar Kul managed?
• The Wastes are advanced quite a bit compared where they were a decade or two prior to the GWAC. When the Wastes advance again in the next Storm of Magic, will that represent a much greater ability for Daemons to flood the armies of Chaos?
• Will the Chaos Dwarfs supply more numerous, and more dangerous, weapons for the armies of Chaos? As one example of an advancement, Hellcannons were only created after the GWAC I believe, a response to the glut of slaves that flooded the market from the war, according to Lady Magister Grey.
• Apart from that I think it's mainly a question of the individual power of characters in the Chaos army. How do figures such as Archaon?, Vilich, or Kholek compare to figures from the last war, such as Asavar Kul, Engra Deathsword, or Kholek?

 

[BurnNote]

This right here is definitely one of the big issues: what is told is badly out of alignment with what is shown.

Chaos is said to be tempting and corruptive and insidious, but chaos is shown to be something that anyone with two braincells knows better than to touch, and it's clear there are no payoffs to going along with them.

Really undermines the whole temptation thing, like a casino where it is known that no one has ever won anything. Even compulsive gamblers would avoid it like the plague.

Fortunately, there are easy fixes: just create and highlight 'one of the lucky ones'.

Click to shrink...

Chaos can absolutely make you incredibly powerful. If you're willing to manipulate and abuse others, if you're charismatic enough, if you're scary enough, if you're lucky enough. So long as you can keep your people from sinking a dagger into you're back, or any of the states from taking you out. Most people are not that. Cannot be that, because a pyramid is always smaller towards the top. But a few make it, and while what you get may not make you happy, it is superficially what was promised.

It's a lot like organized crime like that. You can get fantastically rich that way. Like, if you want to get rich coming from a poor background*, it's genuinely probably the only way with any real likelihood of success. There's just also a pretty good chance that you'll die before making it there, and that you'll kill a whole lot of people without getting anywhere. But if you don't give a shit about others, and have a disregard for getting to retire, then that's the way to go.

*There's an argument that getting really rich requires what ought to be crimes from any background, but let's not get there.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

On a strict comparison between the Great War Against Chaos to the upcoming Everchosen #13, outside of arbitrary 'the Chaos Gods decided to be serious this time' reasons, the main question is of course the relative power of the two forces.

With Order, it's mainly about:

• Is the Empire sufficiently united to present an effective force to contest Chaos?
• Is Kislev recovered enough to reach the strength they had for the GWAC, or better?
• Will Bretonnia be present for this one, or busy with another civil war? (Such as Mallobaude in canon)
• How will the force the Dwarfs contribute compare to that in the GWAC?
• Will the High Elves send more or will they be kept busy by the Druchii again?

Depending on the answers to those questions, the army opposing Chaos might be substantially stronger or weaker than that that Magnus the Pious led. The Empire's magic situation at least should be substantially improved, unless Teclis and his immediate students outweigh the entire modern Colleges on the battlefield.

Then for Chaos:

• Will Archaon/whoever bring even more tribes and Warriors of Chaos than Asavar Kul managed?
• The Wastes are advanced quite a bit compared where they were a decade or two prior to the GWAC. When the Wastes advance again in the next Storm of Magic, will that represent a much greater ability for Daemons to flood the armies of Chaos?
• Will the Chaos Dwarfs supply more numerous, and more dangerous, weapons for the armies of Chaos? As one example of an advancement, Hellcannons were only created after the GWAC I believe, a response to the glut of slaves that flooded the market from the war, according to Lady Magister Grey.
• Apart from that I think it's mainly a question of the individual power of characters in the Chaos army. How do figures such as Archaon?, Vilich, or Kholek compare to figures from the last war, such as Asavar Kul, Engra Deathsword, or Kholek?

Click to shrink...

Order also don't have the Norse Dwarves harrying Chaos from the rear this time around, which at least in-quest I think was critical to their defeat? Unless I'm getting confused with another quest.