Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Boney's point was that all options offered could be justified as IC.

I am saying that in *my opinion*, this is OOC enough to be disfavored.

So please don't take this as a claim about whether or not the option should even be offered. I'm making a claim about which option I feel should be selected, and my reasoning for it, since on it's face it is clearly sub-optimal.

Not opening doors to demons is rational. Not opening doors to demons when you know there's only a 1% chance of demons showing up is much less rational.

I do not think there is such a thing as 'OOC enough', certainly any one of us can make arguments as to why we should not take a certain action, including appeals for why one would not wish Mathilde to be the kind of person to take a certain action, but that is not (in my opinion at least) the same thing as it being out of character. What is and is not out of character is a GM decision whereas we the players decide what the character does from a list of in character things turn by turn.
 
In this case, OOC enough is being driven by my understanding that if the thread didn't know the actual dice roll that gave us a Lord of Change, the thread would be vastly less willing to try again.
 
In this case, OOC enough is being driven by my understanding that if the thread didn't know the actual dice roll that gave us a Lord of Change, the thread would be vastly less willing to try again.

But that is not a judgement of Mathilde though, it is a guess as to what a thread containing hundreds of people would choose in a counter-factual. There is no way to know what the thread would or would not have done, who would have been on line what arguments would have been made etc... All we have is this reality, the one in which we know among other things that that was a 1.
 
I'd sooner sacrifice a finger from my literal hand. We just gained an extra AV action to do before we can close the book on it this past turn, making our scheduling problems even worse:




Trying to finish the AV tree in time to be able to start writing the book has gotten a lot harder to do while also keeping the Waystone project moving, especially if we end up needing to spend a personal AP on binding an Apparition. Spending personal AP on EIC stuff is a complete nonstarter as far as I'm concerned; I just really want to finish stuff! Finishing things is so satisfying!

(This is another reason why I don't think we need to have huge fucking stacks of cash before we go to Lothern; if we go on T44, the next time we have Overwork, we're currently on track to go there with about 1000gc in our pockets, and we haven't even finished researching all the shit we got from our last adventure arc. We are not in such dire need of more cool things to poke that we need to jump through hoops. We have so many cool things to poke! I'd rather spend all that money on Asur books than on research materials!)
Potentially hot take: we shouldn't do the 'is AV different when Wizards aren't looking' action. Not next turn, not ever.
The liminal realm action is already something I'm half tempted to drop, but when it comes to the study of liminal realms we at least know there's something to study. There's a decent chance that the results of this investigation action will be that there was nothing to find, which I think is fairly likely: if AV changes its nature when Mathilde isn't in the room then it would've acted differently when Thorek used it without Mathilde, so either there's no effect to find or the effect is small; Thorek's use for the AV is splitting it into Winds, if it suddenly split into different energies or something equally dramatic when Mathilde left the room he would've noticed it.
 
If Eike is involved with infiltrating Nordland, can we try to find an excuse to get her to see 2nd Fleet? It would probably make her very happy to have a look at the ships she found so fascinating to read about.
 
But that is not a judgement of Mathilde though, it is a guess as to what a thread containing hundreds of people would choose in a counter-factual. There is no way to know what the thread would or would not have done, who would have been on line what arguments would have been made etc... All we have is this reality, the one in which we know among other things that that was a 1.

You are missing the point:

The thread has information that Mathilde does not.

So I'm making a judgement about what the thread would do if it had the same information as Mathilde, and voting for that result.
 
Even with the best possible result from the hide-and-seek AV action—that in Mathilde's absence it takes on the qualities of whatever it's splashed on—what do we...do with that, given the effect would fade as soon as Mathilde walked back in, so it's of no personal use? At best it makes it appealing to the Elementalists. Do we particularly need anything from the elementalists that we'd give up gallons of AV for, now that we've already got their library?
 
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Potentially hot take: we shouldn't do the 'is AV different when Wizards aren't looking' action. Not next turn, not ever.
The liminal realm action is already something I'm half tempted to drop, but when it comes to the study of liminal realms we at least know there's something to study. There's a decent chance that the results of this investigation action will be that there was nothing to find, which I think is fairly likely: if AV changes its nature when Mathilde isn't in the room then it would've acted differently when Thorek used it without Mathilde, so either there's no effect to find or the effect is small; Thorek's use for the AV is splitting it into Winds, if it suddenly split into different energies or something equally dramatic when Mathilde left the room he would've noticed it.
If it's just "no wizards" that's a fair take. If there's more to it - insulating against ambient Winds, finding a source of Earthbound magic - then it's probably worth doing. (I do happen to love actions which involve high-level magic experimentation, though.)

Even with the best possible result from the hide-and-seek AV action—that in Mathilde's absence it takes on the qualities of whatever it's splashed on—what do we...do with that, given the effect would fade as soon as Mathilde walked back in, so it's of no personal use? At best it makes it appealing to the Elementalists. Do we particularly need anything from the elementalists that we'd give up gallons of AV for, now that we've already got their library?
It depends what comes of the action. It might result in something useful to everyone, not just Elementalists, or give us some further insight into the fundamental mechanics of magic in the setting, like the "crush AV like you're making a Powerstone" action did.
 
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Do we? Mathilde is well aware of what critical failures on spellcasting can do. Her assuming that's what happened there is not a stretch.

Why would she assume a critical fail, and not something like 'making an AV liminal realm is very loud within the warp and attracts attention'?

You'd figure this out by testing, but there's a very large risk involved in testing this.
 
Why would she assume a critical fail, and not something like 'making an AV liminal realm is very loud within the warp and attracts attention'?

You'd figure this out by testing, but there's a very large risk involved in testing this.
Because making pocket dimensions without getting Daemons inside is a solved problem:
As for the results, well, the birthing of a pocket dimension is exciting news, and one thing you look for in a pocket dimension is the clear absence of Daemons, so you've hit a stumbling block right from the gate. But as a pocket of the liminal realm is by definition closer to the Aethyr than reality is, this cannot be a unique problem, and as you spent a decade of your life within a pocket dimension without ever being overrun by Daemons, it's one that must have a solution. Perhaps one not yet known to the Colleges, as Collegiate forays into the field are so far tenuous and prone to spontaneously extruding themselves, but you've always considered Collegiate knowledge more of a starting point than an ending one.
 
You are missing the point:

The thread has information that Mathilde does not.

So I'm making a judgement about what the thread would do if it had the same information as Mathilde, and voting for that result.

My point is you do not know the 1-200+ people who vote in this thread enough to judge that counter-factual, none of us do. I think it is likely that we would be more hesitant to vote for liminal realm if we did not see that roll, but I also recognize the limitation of that gut feeling. To give just two examples of when a judgement I made about the thread was dead wrong:
  • I thought the Liber Mortis vote would be contested, it was a landslide
  • I thought we would not take the prophecies of Zandri and we did by a comfortable lead
Given that I cannot even predict what thread will do with all the information we have 100% of the time I would not hazard to guess what we all would have done without a certain piece of information
 
Even with the best possible result from the hide-and-seek AV action—that in Mathilde's absence it takes on the qualities of whatever it's splashed on—what do we...do with that, given the effect would fade as soon as Mathilde walked back in, so it's of no personal use? At best it makes it appealing to the Elementalists. Do we particularly need anything from the elementalists that we'd give up gallons of AV for, now that we've already got their library?

We know Elves can use Earthbound magic and they don't saturate their soul with winds. I feel whatever result we get here could be useful for elves.
 
Why would she assume a critical fail, and not something like 'making an AV liminal realm is very loud within the warp and attracts attention'?

You'd figure this out by testing, but there's a very large risk involved in testing this.

This assumes that Mathilde is incapable of accurately analyzing her own actions or what went wrong. Given her specific skills and traits, I think she's very capable of doing that analysis. She doesn't know it with the certainty the thread does, but I think we should assume she's got some idea of what went wrong in that instance rather than thinking it's likely to be an inherent part of the process or having no idea what happened.
 
We don't know how those other liminal realms were created. Assuming that our AV method, using what seems to be a unique resource and approach, gets the same results as the unknowns is a large logical leap.

As an alternative hypothesis, all artificial liminal realms might be rife with demons when created, and need to be cleaned out before they are usable. Would leave the same evidence as far as other realms being demon free.


My point is you do not know the 1-200+ people who vote in this thread enough to judge that counter-factual, none of us do.

Please consider what I meant when I used the word 'judgement'. I'm not claiming to know, in telling you what I think would have been most likely.

And yes, I do get to have an opinion on that.

This assumes that Mathilde is incapable of accurately analyzing her own actions or what went wrong.

Yes. There's a single data point and no information on other experiments. I do think that in this case, she is unable to tell if the result was because of something she did or something inherent to the AV process.
 
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Why would she assume a critical fail, and not something like 'making an AV liminal realm is very loud within the warp and attracts attention'?

You'd figure this out by testing, but there's a very large risk involved in testing this.

Because creating a liminal realm is so simple that trees do it, and they aren't noticeably more susceptible to demonic possession than normal people. Mathilde has dozens of data points for liminal realms. Only one had demons in it—hers. Ergo, it was her carelessness that introduced the demon into the Liminal Realm, rather than being an inherent property of the Liminal Realm.
 
We know Elves can use Earthbound magic and they don't saturate their soul with winds. I feel whatever result we get here could be useful for elves.
Personally I think they'd probably be equally happy with a set of Orbs if we want to trade AV for Elf Favour. Sure, they can make them where the colleges cannot, but they are still obviously very valuable artefacts given their demonstrated scarcity on the battlefield.
 
I'm not sure why we'd even consider the Jades as Mandred's College.

Fundamentally, safely mastering magic is a time intensive occupation, so it will take a lot of time away from the business of learning and being a ruler. That means that the spells that Mandred learns need to be worth the opportunity cost of being a less good ruler in other ways.

If you look at the spell list, that basically means the Gold College with the Light College as a runner up, and the Gold College has the additional advantage that Feldmann's personal paradigm might mitigate the normal mental issues a Gold Magister has with politics.

That seems like a very narrow view of what spells are useful to a ruler.

The Jade spell list includes a lot of the best "Oh shit, my blood appears to be distributed rather more widely than I would prefer" options and also permits Mandred to ensure that he can produce an heir, with no possibility of it getting out that there were ever concerns that they might not be able to in the first place.

The Grey Order has a number of ways for Mandred to disguise himself, fade into a crowd, become invisible, etc., and also offers the ability to summon a horse that can (in an endurance race) outpace any nonmagical pursuit, without having to go to a known location if an emergency arises. This is amazing for a ruler who might be under threat of assassination, and "the best way to not get assassinated is to not make people want to assassinate you" doesn't apply when the people targeting you are vampires and Chaos cultists.

The Brights get inspiration, intimidation, and the ability to make those around them resistant to fear. Those are extremely relevant abilities for a ruler, particularly as an Everchosen is almost certainly going to show up within Mandred's lifetime, and this is a society where a Crown Prince or head of state is going to be expected to lead troops in the face of such a threat.

Celestial magic lets him divine information like "When should I hold this important diplomatic function and what should the menu be, so that the Elector Count is in the most favorable frame of mind?", which sounds a little stupid but is in fact ridiculously useful for a political figure.

It's not that we couldn't shuffle apparitions to later on (and in fact that might be overall better for not putting it off after capturing one), but there's been enough momentum on the last two turns regarding them that I'm not sure that a plan without them would have enough votes to win.

I know that as someone who personally is kind of against apparitions because the Nazgul memes drive me a little closer to running off to Gretel's place to embrace the Wind of Death every time they come up, I don't feel that I could in good conscience vote to defer them further without several people radically changing their stance, since I was arguing for a very specific delay in the face of concerns that we'd just keep putting it off.

As an alternative hypothesis, all artificial liminal realms might be rife with demons when created, and need to be cleaned out before they are usable. Would leave the same evidence as far as other realms being demon free.

We know that that isn't the case, at least, because Algard would have noticed a trend there and stopped fucking around with them by now; instead, it's not something that's ever been mentioned. Thus, we can reasonably conclude that even if it's a consequence of AV, it's not inherent to liminal realms themselves.

Also, as a counterpoint to the general line of argument here, Mathilde is well-equipped for escaping a daemon (including in her own assessment), and believes that there's a possibility that she might need to. The only way for her to find out if this is a standard side-effect, a rare possibility, or simply a Lord of Change already watching her and taking the opportunity, is to poke a hole in the world and see if a daemon falls out of it. If she doesn't do that, there are good odds that someone less prepared is going to do so, and if it does result in daemons most of the time, that person is likely to get badly hurt at best.

Pawning that risk off on someone else who feels - rightly - that she wasn't rigorous about testing it and decides to dismiss her warnings on account of that feels more out of character for Mathilde than taking a calculated risk.
 
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It depends what comes of the action. It might result in something useful to everyone, not just Elementalists, or give us some further insight into the fundamental mechanics of magic in the setting, like the "crush AV like you're making a Powerstone" action did.
Like, to expand on this, crushing AV gave us Liminal Realms. Now personally I think that's great, Liminal Realms are cool and come up in a lot of places, and I hold out hope we'll think of cool uses for them. But it also gave us this:
And there is no weight of reality here. Your lab is magically isolated from the outside world, and the Aethyr was forced into a space between realms before it transformed. Placed equidistant between real and unreal and isolated from the pressure of existence to impose a decision upon it, Aethyr still became Winds and the Winds still retained the nature of reality.

Which means that the Winds can't be born of the mere inertia of what already is. Reality is being imposed upon Chaos by something other than reality.
This is an extremely profound truth about magic in this setting. An assumption underpinning everything we'd known about magic up until this point, that the winds are fundamentally borne of Chaos and are ultimately beholden to it, was disproven. This is an extraordinary discovery, an insight into the deepest cosmology of the setting that we might not have used yet, but that I fully expect to be critical in some future Deep Magics.

In fact, right now it's occurred to me - the Waystone Network relies on Dhar's attraction to the Realm of Chaos to function, because the Winds aren't attracted to it in their uncorrupted state. Considering this as not being a mere quirk of Chaotic energies, but a consequence of them not actually being Chaotic, we can say that it is very possible that the corruption of the Winds into Dhar is in some way 'of Chaos' on a fundamental level - would the Winds be more difficult to corrupt, easier to control, in an environment protected from Chaos? If we somehow created a truly Chaos-proof area, would it be harder to miscast inside of it?


What was I talking about? Right, AV not exposed to the Winds. Well, if being exposed to the Winds when equidistant between reality and Chaos makes more Reality, maybe being exposed to reality when bereft of the Winds will do something equally interesting.
 
Because creating a liminal realm is so simple that trees do it, and they aren't noticeably more susceptible to demonic possession than normal people. Mathilde has dozens of data points for liminal realms. Only one had demons in it—hers. Ergo, it was her carelessness that introduced the demon into the Liminal Realm, rather than being an inherent property of the Liminal Realm.

Your hidden assumption being that there is no relevant difference between a liminal realm being naturally created and one made via AV implosion, so we can expect the same results from both.
 
Please consider what I meant when I used the word 'judgement'. I'm not claiming to know, in telling you what I think would have been most likely.

And yes, I do get to have an opinion on that.

You do and you get to vote on that opinion, indeed you do not have to justify your vote at all, you can just vote. When it comes to persuading other people what I am pointing out is that said opinion is based on your judgement of how actual other people wold have voted which is in my opinion a lot more iffy than anything diegetic since people are complicated. I am not telling you that you are not entitled to your own oppinion and apologies if it came out that way, I am pointing out to other voters using myself as an example why I do not think that is a strong argument.
 
So Forest of Hate is based in the Eastern Laurelorn forest, I'm going to avoid the plot for people that might want to buy/play it. but funnily enough it has a lot to do with the logging industry considering the current topic.

This was an incredibly hard adventure to take stuff out for very good reasons, almost everything in it is very keyed to the plot of the Plague that is currently ravaging every location, places events and people all tie very well together and word count is very well used. as a story set in Laurelorn I recommend giving it a read. I would argue that this is more of a campaign in its own right then a one-shot.

but its very hard to take stuff that's not keyed to the 'moment' (e.g almost 22 years into the future of the quest and set in 4ed timeline during a plague outbreak)

1: a little bit of history: 'Most Elves would postulate that Eonir — Wood Elf — culture emerged from the War of the Beard 2,600 years ago. In truth, exiled Elven mages had led some colonists down a path divergent from their siblings in Ulthaun centuries prior'. so it wasn't just 'they left us! let's build our own kingdom, with blackjack and hookers!' but that they were already thinking about it before the war.

2
'Dwarf armies had destroyed Kor Immarmor and threatened to overrun the last remaining Elf colony at Tor Lithanel. In the Elves' hour of desperation, the exiled mages summoned a great spirit-host to rout the besiegers. Meanwhile, a solitary wizard named Darlorhan unleashed a terrible disease at the ruins of Kor Immarmor where Dwarf reserves were encamped. The two-pronged Elven assault broke the Dwarfs' resolve and ultimately forced them to withdraw to their mountain holds. Though the war continued for years afterwards, the Dwarfs never again threatened Tor Lithanel. Kor Immarmor was recorded in the Book of Grudges as the site of an atrocity committed by an Elf dubbed the 'The Blinding Death'.
So this is the first time I think that WFRP actually explained what the Grey Lords did to fight off the Dwarf armies. (spoiler because its part of the plot of the Adventure)

3: there is a place called Ammenvale, guarded by the cult of Asuryan that has a powerful Ward called the Shield of Asuryan, but Ammenvale has a dark secret that even the cult is unaware of. (anything more than that is a spoiler.)

4: The Cult of Asuryan: 'The creator god Asuryan is the ruler of the Elven pantheon and governs balance in all things. In the Laurelorn Forest, disciples of Asuryan are dedicated to preserving their god's plan. Eonir prophets rarely claim to understand the intentions of a god, but nevertheless they believe the arcane wonders left behind by the Old Ones are integral to his plan.'

5: Sons of Asuryan: A sub-cult of Asuryan, based out of Ammenvale; 'without guidance from the seers of Lileath, the Sons of Asuryan have increasingly turned to the voice of the Hermit Lord for instruction. Over time, the group has become increasingly insular and convinced of its own righteousness.' The Queen of Laurelorn recognises the group's legacy but secretly considers them potential traitors to the Eonir. Without guidance from the seers of Lileath, the Sons have turned to the voice of Darlorhan for instruction. Over time, the cult has become increasingly patriarchal
'
'Sons of Asuryan rarely speak, favouring hand signals to communicate with one another — they believe silence allows them to better hear the words of their master. Verbal negotiation with trespassers is handled by the patrol leader. They are dangerous, ******* *********** **********, but they do not know this. If it were revealed, the Sons would surely disband, or be ripped asunder in shame and infighting. '

6: Darlorhan The Hermit Lord, The Blinding Death, Puppet of Nurgle : An archmage over 4,000 years old, though only if one considers his current state of being to constitute life. In the age before the War of the Beard, he lived as a hermit experimenting with Laurelorn's exotic flora. Although Darlorhan's reclusiveness earned him the epithet 'The Hermit Lord', he was one of the few wizards capable of binding departed Elven souls into trees to preserve them from Chaos. Darlorhan chose the site of Ammenvale for his work because it was shielded by an ancient ward that turned aside the influence of Chaos completely. During the later years of the War of the Beard, Darlorhan unexpectedly unleashed a deadly disease on the Dwarf invaders.

Today, Darlorhan's body is preserved in crystal at Ammenvale, where the Shield of Asuryan is sustained by his magical essence. Though his body cannot move or speak, it is believed that the 'Hermit Lord' can still issue instructions to devoted guardians, the Sons of Asuryan, by magical means.


7: Nordland Foresters' Guild: 'Until this year, the Nordland timber trade wasn't represented by a guild. However, after the first instances of Red Blight were reported, a wealthy merchant named Oswald Kochler established the Nordland Foresters' Guild to advocate for local woodsmen.' so currently there is no 'Foresters Guild' and business is mostly done village by village, logging camp by logging camp. this is pretty good news for Eikes little scheme.

8: Herr Oswald Kochler Forester Guildmaster (not yet born): Herr Kochler is a prominent timber merchant and Salzenmund city councillor, who owns logging camps near the Laurelorn village of Vesterrup. He recently founded the Nordland Foresters' Guild to represent woodsmen and protest logging quotas imposed by Elves. Kochler has always been ruthless, and is not above working with the likes of Goblins and other enemies of the Empire if it aids him. While touring the Laurelorn to drum up support for attacks on the Elves, Kochler is escorted by a band of sycophantic woodsmen with axes to grind. The most loyal of these call themselves the Jolly Axemen.' as this is someone not yet born, the only really useful info is that the Village of Vesterrup is/will be a big logging area.

9: NORDLAND POLITICS: 'Relations between Nordlanders and Laurelorn Elves are often strained, but open hostilities are typically rare. If your game is set prior to 2512 IC, Baron Werner Nikse is Grand Count of Nordland. The Enemy Within campaign results in Theoderic Gausser usurping Nikse to become Nordland's first Elector Count in over 300 years. However, the Margravinate of Forstmark (described in the gazetteer section) remains Nikse land even after Werner's defeat. Further details on Nordland politics can be found in Salzenmund: City of Salt and Silver.' so very 4ed when it comes to Nordland lore.

10: MOONFLOWER AND LORNALIM TREES: 'Silver barked, straight trunked, and bereft of their thick yellow leaves only in the very depths of winter, Lornalim trees are beloved by the elves of the Laurelorn. They grow to towering heights, and are often found covered in Moonflower — a moss which grows on the leaves of their lowest and most shaded branches. The trees are among the few which most Nordland foresters avoid cutting down under any circumstances, as to do so is to invoke the wrath of Wood Elves and more fearsome denizens of the Laurelorn alike. This has led to small stands of the tree suriving where the surrounding woods have been cleared away, though they only host Moonflower when found in the shade of a larger forest.'

11: Plague Towns:
- Zelebhorn: Zelebhorn is currently the site of a military checkpoint and isolation camp. Nordland and Middenland soldiers inspect travelers for symptoms and advise on safety protocols. Southbound travelers are redirected to the isolation camp where they must remain for three days without symptoms. The town's sawmills are closed because of the plague. Two Jolly Axemen loiter about promoting bogus cures and teaching anti-Elven slurs to idle mill workers. The isolation camp has turned Zelebhorn into a market town for plague medicine. Some of the wealthy travellers confined here will even pay for unproven cures. There are more charlatans in the camp than genuine physicians. The local tailor earns a tidy profit selling blindfolds and gloves.
-Hargenfels: This walled port town is the capital of the Barony of Hargenfels. Townsfolk welcome Eonir traders and tolerate religious diversity, however the plague has forced Hargendorfers into quarantine. Outside the gate is a bustling herb market and plague camp. A pair of exhausted Shallyan nuns assist the renowned physician, Doktor Greiss. The herb market is operated by a smuggling ring connected with the Hargenfels family. Doktor Greiss is a busy man of science with no patience for quack medicine. He will describe Eyeslime Fever's symptoms and treatments to anyone who brings him Moonflower. While buying Moonflower in the Forstmark last week, he was chased away by Foresters' Guild thugs. The Shallyan mission that ventured south to find a cure has not yet returned.
-Skogholm: The smaller of the two Nikse border fortresses was constructed by Dwarf masons and is maintained by their descendants. Inside the fort is a village of low houses with extensive underground quarters. Secret tunnels extend for miles beneath the forest into the Elven wood. Alrik Okrisson (see Appendix) lives in Skogholm but currently operates his bounty hunting network from Forstfast. Wood Elves who've been victimised by the bounty hunters are planning a retaliatory attack on Skogholm in Alrik's absence.
Skogholm is under quarantine because its Dwarf population is devastated by the plague. Nearly fifty Dwarf deaths have spurred the demand for plague medicine, and the Dwarfs have enough gold stashed away to pay for it. The medicine market is brokered by a superstitious apothecary named Modrek who constantly makes warding signs and mutters prayers to Valaya


12: Athanoc, Guardian Mage of the Laurelorn: Athanoc is one of Laurelorn's few surviving refugees from the War of the Beard. He arrived from Kor Vanaeth (now Altdorf ) and lived with other refugees in the riverside caves. In that era, the bridge was made of stone. Athanoc is now a hermit with few ties. The dour guardian wears brown furs over grey robes and carries a staff of Lornalim. He is bored of gatekeeping but doesn't trust anyone else with the responsibility. The guardian mage learned soul-binding magic from Darlorhan long ago. He can sense the magical disturbance at Ammenvale. In these difficult times, Athanoc allows medicine-seekers across the bridge if they are accompanied by Eonir. Other applicants must demonstrate their allegiance by providing details of logging activity in the Nikses' lands. Illegal logging camps will be demolished by angry Tree Kin, many of whom were Athanoc's friends and family in their former lives.

13: Engidu, Ancient of the Underwood: The natural form of this spirit, which the Characters will witness if they return with Olof or a substitute, is of a massive stag made of blistering amber light. Those with Second Sight note that it exudes Ghur. Engidu claims to have come to Laurelorn long before the Eonir arrived, but admits it was they who first 'quickened' his mind. The sprit claims to have taught Elf mages (including Darlorhan and Athanoc) many secrets, including the secrets of binding souls into Tree Kin. He has since added his strength to the Laurelorn — though the spirits there are not so bounded to these Elves as are those of Athel Loren far to the south, they still favour the Wood Elves.

15: Katja, Hedgewise (not yet born) The middle-aged herbalist is an Old Faith worshipper who practices natural medicine. Katja is familiar with the Laurelorn nature spirits. She can educate characters about Tree Kin, explaining that some are nature spirits, others vessals for Elf souls.

ADVENTURE LOCATIONS:
-Voervinholm (Medium Village): The logging camps near this predominantly Human village are legitimised by treaties with the Eonir, but they were hastily abandoned when the plague arrived. Baronial permits remain nailed to the trees and discarded axes have been left to rust amongst empty tents. The only shop is a closed Dwarf smithy owned by Kleggi Ironhand, who is bedridden in serious condition, attened to by human neighbours who either brave the disease or have recovered from it already. His family are staying with friends in the village in the hopes of avoiding infection, as Dwarfs have proven particularly susceptible.

-Tyrvad (Small Village): Tyrvad is located at a busy road junction connecting the two Nikse fortresses Tyrvad's logging camps are considered illegal by the Eonir and their trees aren't marked with baronial permits, Bounty notices for the Elf fugitive Redfern and the Goblin chief Snakebite are posted at the road junction.

Forstfast (Large Fort): This ancient border fortress is located on the east bank of the river Demst. Forstfast is strategically positioned downriver from the bridge where an old Elf road crosses from the forbidden Laurelorn heartland. Flags flying from the fortress' square stone towers are easy to spot above the tree canopy. On the riverbank below the fortress is a small village enclosed by a sturdy wooden palisade reinforced with a small stone wall. Forstfast was built by Dwarfs after the Treaty of the Leaf was signed in 630 IC. Its chief purpose today is to protect Nikse forestry interests from Wood Elf intervention. The large tract of Laurelorn woodland claimed by the Nikse family is called the Margravinate of Forstmark. Most of the soldiers garrisoned at Forstfast are archers and huntsmen who patrol the Forstmark in detachments of twenty.

-----Fortress: The vine-covered fortress is currently under plague restrictions watched over by Shallyan nuns, which means no visitors may enter. Sheriff Blüchwalder enforces these rules strictly, which primairly ban strangers from entering the village without leave from his office. Violators are caged in the woods overnight, and survivors are usually set free the following morning. If a Nikse logging camp is raided by Elves or Tree Kin, the sheriff dispatches soldiers from Forstfast to the area. Orders are to avoid casualties on either side if possible while diplomats are sent to Marrisith, Queen of the Laurelorn, in an attempt to avoid open war.
-----Village: Visitor's eyes are checked for signs of pus before being allowed inside the palisade. The Hungry Halfling inn is booked to capacity, however Alrik offers his room to the characters if they agree to work for him (Alrik has friends that he can board with). Across from the inn is Horvid's Trading Post, which specialises in outdoor survival gear. Wood Elves occasionally trade exotic wares with Horvid.

Herbalists often hire bounty hunter escorts when braving the dangerous Elf wood to gather Moonflower. Bounty hunters use herb gathering expeditions as a pretense to search for Elf fugitives. Many of these bounty hunters are unemployed woodsmen. The Nordland Foresters' Guild is actively spreading anti-Elven propaganda and plague misinformation in Forstfast. As a result, Wood Elves are currently avoiding the fort for fear of being arrested, or having locks of their hair torn out by desperate plague victims. Baron Werner Nikse visits Forstfast occasionally to inspect his soldiers and appraise the plague situation. Nikse is protective of his forestland and endorses logging camps which Laurelorn's Wood Elves consider illegal. He turns a blind eye to crimes committed against Wood Elves while sympathising with Dwarfs. Alrik Okrisson is secretly in the baron's employ. Baron Nikse supports the Nordland Foresters' Guild, but he's hesitant to publicly align himself with their guildmaster

Ruined Bridge Elven Landmark: The old Elf road from Tor Lithanel crosses the river Demst at a deep gorge. Multiple swinging bridges crisscross each other in a weave of planks and vines. The crossing is particularly treacherous because sections of planking are missing. To complicate matters, the guardian mage Athanoc has used illusion spells to turn solid sections invisible, and make gaps appear as solid planks. Athanoc can be verbally summoned from his cave in the canyon wall below.

Golden Wood (Large Forest): West of the river Demst, the Laurelorn is exclusive domain of the Elves. The Treaty of the Leaf only allows humans with the Queen's permission to settle in the Protectorate of Laurelorn. In daylight, the Golden Wood is a joyous place of sun-dappled glades and birdsong. After sunset, it becomes a haunted forest from which trespassers rarely return.

-----Old Elf Road: The road from Kor Immarmor is partially overgrown, making the Laurelorn heartland inaccessible to wagon traffic. Riders on horseback can travel normally.
-----Lornalim Trees: Harming a sacred lornalim tree is punishable by death. Metallic strands in the bark of the Lornalims reflect light, which gives the Golden Wood a warm ambience in daytime but an eerie glow at night. Wizards can sense Ghyran and Chamon emanating from the magnificent stands. Trees near the road have already been stripped of Moonflower.
----- Groves of the Elders: Amongst the Lornalims are groves that appear to be dead or dying. They are in fact slumbering Tree Kin . These ares are known as Groves of the Elders. At the centre of each is an Elven waystone inscribed with runes of Ghyran and Shyish. These 'forest graveyards' are hallowed ground to the Eonir.
-----Subterranean Rivers: Along the west bank of the Demst are cave entrances to a vast network of rivers flowing beneath the Golden Wood. A kithband of Elves belonging to the Younger (Harioth) kindred takes refuge in the damp caverns. Eonir call these rivers the 'Underwood' and pay tribute to an elder spirit called Engidu who resides deep within.

During the day, the Laurelorn's most cruel and capricious spirits slumber inside trees. Travellers might spot an occasional Spite but otherwise the only daytime threats are wild animals and Wood Elf patrols. At night, Spites are encountered in larger groups, along with more powerful spirits, and they are often hungry.

Wood Elves patrol the Golden Wood vigilantly against trespassers. These guardians of the Laurelorn prefer to remain unseen to everyone except other Eonir. Non-Elves who haven't been marked as 'friendly visitors' receive a single warning, in the form of an Elven arrow lodged into a tree near their heads. Those who don't heed this warning shot and leave the Golden Wood will be cut down with a volley of arrows.

The River Demst is a natural defense against incursions from the east. Eonir that traverse the Demst in swift canoes make pacts with the Naiads for safe passage. These 'river elves' fight alongside the water spirits when Beastman or Goblin war parties threaten the Golden Wood. River elves also trade furs with the humans of Schlaghügel and Hargendorf. River elves are considered outsiders by other Eonir because they only settled in the Laurelorn 1,000 years ago.

Morgrim's Gears of War: Lost Dwarf artifacts from the War of Vengeance have laid buried under the forest for millennia, including the remains of war machines crafted by the ancestor god Morgrim. Alrik and the other Forstmark Dwarfs have searched for generations hoping to find these ancestral relics. Morgrim's gears are believed to be somewhere in the Misty Hills, possibly guarded by the very same Dryads and Treemen who routed the Dwarf army long ago. The thought alone is enough to set the blood of many Dwarfs boiling.


Schlaghügel (Medium Village): This idyllic village is situated on the west bank of the river Demst in violation of the Treaty of the Leaf. The von Hargenfels family colonised the site because of its proximity to an ancient stone circle. Despite the infringement on Elf territory, Schlaghügel has been allowed to remain. A few of the village's elders were alive when the first cottage was dedicated to the goddess Rhya.

--Village: Devotees of Taal, Rhya and the Old Faith try to live in harmony with the Laurelorn. Villagers place offerings at the stone circle and trade with 'river elves' — Eonir who bring furs down the Demst in canoes. A swinging bridge crosses over the river gorge to the east bank.

--Stone Circle: Atop a wooded hill 3 miles west of Schlaghügel is an ancient stone circle.

Auld Troldved (Small Town 'Ruined'): The overgrown ruins of this former baronial capital are occupied by Goblins of the Yelloweye tribe, who use it as a raiding base. Crude wooden palisades and archer platforms are decorated with severed Elf heads. The woods around the ruins are infested with Snotlings. When not marauding, the Goblins live in an abandoned mine nearer the hill's summit. The Barony of Silberhugel is now governed from Troldved, which was rebuilt at the eastern end of Lake Troldso. Their presence is tolerated only because raising an army of sufficent size to drive them out could easily spark a wider conflict between the Empire and the Wood Elves, though the situation cannot continue for long.

Ruins of Kor Immarmor(Small City 'Ruined'): A Dwarf army besieged and razed this former High Elven city 2,700 years ago. The Laurelorn forest swallowed the ruins completely before the site was eventually reclaimed by Elves. Kor Immarmor is a terraced basin built around a river. Forestborn Eonir camp in the trees overhead whilst the Cityborn inhabit a partially restored district by the river. The city's original stonework is mostly crumbled and camouflaged by overgrowth.

--Overgrown Terraces: The terraces descending to the river are also overgrown with briars and Fire Nettles. Hidden amongst the rubble are huts belonging to Elves of the Younger (Harioth) Kindred. They have been considered squatters by other Eonir since their arrival from Kislev as refugees a mere two centuries ago.

---Cityborn District: On the riverbank at the base of the terrace garden are over 20 stone buildings of High Elven architecture. More than a hundred Eonir of the Cityborn (Toriour) Kindred live here in sheltered seclusion. The district can only be accessed by river, or by bushwhacking through the perimeter defences. Notable buildings include a shrine to Asuryan, a meeting hall, and a water-powered grain mill. Sleek Elven riverboats are moored at a dock.

The colony's Cityborn residents are descendants of Elves who fled its destruction during the War of the Beard. These elitists consider themselves 'true Elves', but since there are no princes among them, Marrisith, the Queen of Laurelorn claims rulership of Kor Immarmor. The Cityborn district is a haven for radical devotees of Asuryan who oppose Laurelorn's system of matrilineal succession. These political dissidents favour Prince Aesryn as their rightful ruler and would support a coup attempt by the Queen's brother. The Forestborn perimeter guards are nomads who sleep in hammock-tents while serving their duty to the Queen. Kor Immarmor is in a dangerous region where clashes with Yelloweye Goblins occur almost daily. Lord Lindialoc (see Archives of the Empire I) resupplies his kithband warriors here, but they rarely stay for long. Lindialoc's warriors patrol the hillside to the east, meanwhile the Sons of Asuryan patrol the Lake Ammen area


Vesterrup (Small Village): The independent village of Vesterrup is tucked away in the foothills between three baronies. Originally settled by outlaws, the location is ideal for evading bounty hunters and tax collectors. The only overland approach is a trail from the old Elven road. Locals count on the nearby Wood Elves to deter unwanted visitors. Oswald Kochler (page 9, 37) owns a pair of illegal logging camps here. Logs are floated downriver to Hargendorf for sale.

Ammenvale(Elven Villa): Spoliers

Alrik Okrisson Dwarf Bounty Hunter General: 'Alrik is the angriest Dwarf in Skogholm, and possibly the entire Laurelorn forest. For centuries he's tried – without success – to avenge his ancestors' grudges from the War of the Beard. Alrik has apprehended some of the Laurelorn's most notorious outlaws but catching Elves in the damnable forest is nigh impossible. They vanish before his crossbow can be reloaded, and they slip easily out of his manacles. A cheeky minstrel named Redfern has popularised songs depicting the bounty hunter as a buffoon. Forty years ago, an arthritic knee and failing eyesight forced Alrik into semi-retirement. Baron Nikse's father Helmut approached the Dwarf with an offer. If Alrik recruited bounty hunters to rid the Forstmark of outlaws, the Nikse family would pay all bounties. Alrik accepted the baron's deal, and within a week Elf convicts were being arrested by Alrik's crew. Although many of the charges against Elves are spurious, the Nikse family continues sponsoring Alrik. Alrik is exceedingly polite to Elf characters because he wants to appear reasonable. He doesn't belong to the Nordland Foresters' Guild, but he admires Guildmaster Kochler and has helped the merchant spread rumours about Elves.Alrik has heard of the tainted wood north of Vesterrup but receives no compensation for bounties outside the Forstmark. Since the plague outbreak, Alrik has tried to arrest Redfern on charges of spreading the 'fey curse' through his music. Alrik currently resides in Forstfast as Skogholm is under quarantine.' Look, I know people hate seeing bad guy dwarfs, but this is a totally believable character.

Torendil Redfern: Torendil is a famous personality in the eastern Laurelorn where he's commonly known as 'Redfern'. The young minstrel's origins are as mysterious as his talent with a lute. No Elf is certain of his birth Kindred, only that he was born in Kor Immarmor and his grandmother was a famous mage in the War of the Beard. Redfern wanders the Laurelorn playing in Norland's inns and gathering news of anything that might threaten the forest or his kin.

---REDFERN'S LUTE: The Lute Redfern carries is well made, but for much of its existence was otherwise unremarkable. After a particularly stirring performance in the Golden Wood some years ago, a forest spirit was so entranced by Redfern's music that it took up residence inside his lute. By playing, Redfern can coax the spirit into casting any spell from the Lore of Life with a CN of 6 or less as if it had made the Casting Test with 0 SL to spare. In anyone else's hands, it is likely the spirit would flee and the lute become inert.


as a 4ed book (sold 10/10 for a 10 euro book) its pretty hefty and full of plot for one of the sub-books. and has a few locations that might be useful for Boney (well, some anyways.)
 
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Well, let's go ahead and assume that playing hide-and-seek with AV is a given, because there's never a box too small to be left unticked in this tech tree before the book can be written.

Is it worth spending some funds to hire an elementalist to oversee the action? The nature of AV beyond "undifferentiated warpstuff we got from SOMEWHERE" doesn't have to be revealed, but an expert opinion would maximise the possibility of getting something workable out of this very marginal use of an AP.
 
Well, let's go ahead and assume that playing hide-and-seek with AV is a given, because there's never a box too small to be left unticked in this tech tree before the book can be written.

Is it worth spending some funds to hire an elementalist to oversee the action? The nature of AV beyond "undifferentiated warpstuff we got from SOMEWHERE" doesn't have to be revealed, but an expert opinion would maximise the possibility of getting something workable out of this very marginal use of an AP.

I would not trust an elementalist with knowledge of the stuff, though the point it moot as they would run screaming from Mathilde before she could open her mouth.
 
Well, let's go ahead and assume that playing hide-and-seek with AV is a given, because there's never a box too small to be left unticked in this tech tree before the book can be written.

Is it worth spending some funds to hire an elementalist to oversee the action? The nature of AV beyond "undifferentiated warpstuff we got from SOMEWHERE" doesn't have to be revealed, but an expert opinion would maximise the possibility of getting something workable out of this very marginal use of an AP.
We might not even need an elementalist. What we need is an apprentice with windsight but without much casting having been done.
 
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