Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Retrueno]

Honestly I am a bit annoyed by the argument that the moment we put a bounty in the cult of thieves absolutely everyone will know we're stealing books.

It doesn't matter that these are people from the Cult of Ranald with literal magical powers, it does not matter that it's against their scriptures to sell us (or the bounty in this case) to the authorities, it does not matter if Mathilde takes preventive measures like setting multiple intermediaries or if she asks that the bounty is only told to skilled and loyal individuals.

Nope, absolutely everyone we can steal from would be able to track down books stolen by magical thiefs sold to a decentralized cult through multiple intermediaries to a library in the literal edge of the new world and do so with ironclad evidence that we have stolen books and that we know they're stolen books because we have clearly ordered it.

 

[DragonParadox]

Honestly I am a bit annoyed by the argument that the moment we put a bounty in the cult of thieves absolutely everyone will know we're stealing books.

It doesn't matter that these are people from the Cult of Ranald with literal magical powers, it does not matter that it's against their scriptures to sell us (or the bounty in this case) to the authorities, it does not matter if Mathilde takes preventive measures like setting multiple intermediaries or if she asks that the bounty is only told to skilled and loyal individuals.

Nope, absolutely everyone we can steal from would be able to track down books stolen by magical thiefs sold to a decentralized cult through multiple intermediaries to a library in the literal edge of the new world and do so with ironclad evidence that we have stolen books and that we know they're stolen books because we have clearly ordered it.

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The argument isn't that 'the moment we put a bounty in the cult of thieves absolutely everyone will know we're stealing books', it is that if we get caught the consequences are so dire for our reputation and our relationship with Belegar as not to be worth it. Sure the Cult of Ranald has magic powers, so do many of the people you would be stealing rare books from, Mathilde is also good at intrigue, so would many of the people we would be stealing books from.

And to add to this I do not trust random Ranaldites not to sell us out if the price is good enough. Before anyone says anything I know Mathilde is special to Ranald, but the favor of a god does not guarantee everyone in his cult will never betray you, Spellcasting priests can fight and kill each other with the power of their god. Nevermind lay thieves talking when faced with an interrogator.

 

[Abhorsen]

I'm not altogether sure we even want the Eonir to know how to use Dhar better. Ignoring the long term costs,

Honestly I am a bit annoyed by the argument that the moment we put a bounty in the cult of thieves absolutely everyone will know we're stealing books.

It doesn't matter that these are people from the Cult of Ranald with literal magical powers, it does not matter that it's against their scriptures to sell us (or the bounty in this case) to the authorities, it does not matter if Mathilde takes preventive measures like setting multiple intermediaries or if she asks that the bounty is only told to skilled and loyal individuals.

Nope, absolutely everyone we can steal from would be able to track down books stolen by magical thiefs sold to a decentralized cult through multiple intermediaries to a library in the literal edge of the new world and do so with ironclad evidence that we have stolen books and that we know they're stolen books because we have clearly ordered it.

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I'd say the stronger argument is that if a bunch of books are being stolen, we are the number 1 suspect. We are the worlds most public Ranaldian (The Dwarves shouted it to the world). We are starting a new library which everyone also knows about. The second anyone finds out about an Ranaldian localized offer to buy books (any books), we are suspect Number 1, 2, and 3. And it's easy to find out about the Ranaldian localized offer because we need to get the offer out there in the first place, which means low level Ranaldians will know, get caught, and some will blab.

But that's not even the main reason not to do this. The reason not to is that books in secure storage with no one but evil people wanting them, and only sorta wanting them unless they have a specific need for a specific book, are pretty safe. But now we've effectively declared open season on bad books, there will be attempts to rob those places. And Some will work, but some will fail in a manner that leaves the defenses down, some will initially succeed but then the book never gets to us, etc. Just a bad idea to set it up.

Again, however, just an anonymous tipline about cults that pays out? That's really freaking valuable. One might already exist, though, IDK.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Honestly I am a bit annoyed by the argument that the moment we put a bounty in the cult of thieves absolutely everyone will know we're stealing books.

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Honestly, I agree that Mathilde is 100% capable of laundering any books she receives. On the other hand I also agree that this isn't really the time to pursue it, considering the mountain of copying available to do.

Thinking about it a bit more, it feels more like something to look into once our library is almost filled out, and we're really reaching for new content. That would also let us focus the effort on targeting actually hard to get stuff, as we'd have already filled out from the generally available corpus and would know what was still out of reach.

it is that if we get caught the consequences are so dire for our reputation and our relationship with Belegar as not to be worth it.

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That really depends on how the whole thing is set up.

And to add to this I do not trust random Ranaldites not to sell us out if the price is good enough.

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I don't see why random Ranaldites would ever know who they were selling to.

 

[Tomcost]

Hmmmm

I wonder if, given how we swept into Nuln to gather as many books as we could, if this Von Sangster fellow would be our extra social action

 

[DragonParadox]

That really depends on how the whole thing is set up.



I don't see why random Ranaldites would ever know who they were selling to.

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Someone has to know and everyone knows who the next link in the chain is, investigators exist and as it happens we just annoyed some of the most skilled investigators in the old world and the ones most likely to follow up on stolen books.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

it does care about its magisters learning early on not to do the "bad money thing" and so stern words might still be had because its a bad example. it doesnt matter who gets hurt more that it was done for personal profit.

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Personal profit is a finnicky term. It is fairly easy to justify a very decent standard of living just going by the Article 11; more stuff can be invested in spy networks (which can also be self sustaining businesses like the EIC) or in various tools, books, weaponry, mounts and other such stuff that is (or can be) of practical use. Why there's even rumours of a certain Lady Magister that has an entire fiefdom somewhere in Stirland...

As for Belegar I feel we could frame this pretty nicely as repaying one of the many many grudges the Empire has with Marienburg.

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Belegar has to accept theft because of Transcendant Boon - he's just going to be burdened by it both mentally and politically. For the matter considering Mathilde's reputation (and newfound dwarf status) declaring a Grudge could become serious business.

Honestly I am a bit annoyed by the argument that the moment we put a bounty in the cult of thieves absolutely everyone will know we're stealing books.

It doesn't matter that these are people from the Cult of Ranald with literal magical powers, it does not matter that it's against their scriptures to sell us (or the bounty in this case) to the authorities, it does not matter if Mathilde takes preventive measures like setting multiple intermediaries or if she asks that the bounty is only told to skilled and loyal individuals.

Nope, absolutely everyone we can steal from would be able to track down books stolen by magical thiefs sold to a decentralized cult through multiple intermediaries to a library in the literal edge of the new world and do so with ironclad evidence that we have stolen books and that we know they're stolen books because we have clearly ordered it.

Click to shrink...

We're running a public library; this means that every book that's not really dangerous will be available for visiting scholars.

Since the chance to be identified grows with every tome added and that if we build a massive library scholars from all around the continent will come to K8P that means we're basically guaranteed to get caught if we use Ranaldian networks to buff our library significantly.

Remember - we're not talking about common books since Belegar can just buy those - no it'd be consistently bringing in rare tomes that are if not unique then available only in a handful of places: eventually people will grow suspicious of how works that got pillaged are appearing in the K8P library.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Someone has to know and everyone knows who the next link in the chain is, investigators exist and as it happens we just annoyed some of the most skilled investigators in the old world and the ones most likely to follow up on stolen books.

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Someone doesn't have to know who the next link in the chain is. We saw examples of exactly that when we talked with Regimand about the Altdorf underworld. Plenty of people just reporting in to figures in hoods.

I feel like people are weirdly overselling how easy this stuff would be to trace, or acting like Mathilde would go about it in some blatantly obvious way.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Honestly I am a bit annoyed by the argument that the moment we put a bounty in the cult of thieves absolutely everyone will know we're stealing books.

It doesn't matter that these are people from the Cult of Ranald with literal magical powers, it does not matter that it's against their scriptures to sell us (or the bounty in this case) to the authorities, it does not matter if Mathilde takes preventive measures like setting multiple intermediaries or if she asks that the bounty is only told to skilled and loyal individuals.

Nope, absolutely everyone we can steal from would be able to track down books stolen by magical thiefs sold to a decentralized cult through multiple intermediaries to a library in the literal edge of the new world and do so with ironclad evidence that we have stolen books and that we know they're stolen books because we have clearly ordered it.

Click to shrink...

The only books worth stealing instead of just buying are ones where they're rare and notable enough that it'd be obvious they were the same books that mysteriously went missing in this other collection over here. Those books are only worth owning in that having them is prestigious and reflects well on the library.

I suppose we could steal rare original-copy books and just hide them in the library, but that'd be pretty pointless.

 

[Tobtorp]

Personal profit is a finnicky term. It is fairly easy to justify a very decent standard of living just going by the Article 11; more stuff can be invested in spy networks (which can also be self sustaining businesses like the EIC) or in various tools, books, weaponry, mounts and other such stuff that is (or can be) of practical use. Why there's even rumours of a certain Lady Magister that has an entire fiefdom somewhere in Stirland...

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Yes, and that's a magister (at that point at least) building up a spy network and living in comfort. If an apprentice starts doing this shit then there was a mistake somewhere in the education of said apprentice.

 

[DragonParadox]

Someone doesn't have to know who the next link in the chain is. We saw examples of exactly that when we talked with Regimand about the Altdorf underworld. Plenty of people just reporting in to figures in hoods.

I feel like people are weirdly overselling how easy this stuff would be to trace, or acting like Mathilde would go about it in some blatantly obvious way.

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So your argument is that Ranaldites are so much better at keeping secrets than Verenans are at finding them that there is no risk, or at least no meaningful risk of being found out? That does not seem likely to me.

Yes, and that's a magister (at that point at least) building up a spy network and living in comfort. If an apprentice starts doing this shit then there was a mistake somewhere in the education of said apprentice.

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The apprentice already starts at 'very wealthy', making the EIC wealthier would not meaningfully increase Eike's comfort at this point, it would make it a more efficient tool though.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

So your argument is that Ranaldites are so much better at keeping secrets than Verenans are at finding them that there is no risk, or at least no meaningful risk of being found out? That does not seem likely to me.

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Yes, my argument is that I don't think Mathilde will be found out. It seems very likely to me. Maybe if she was an idiot about how she set things up she would attract the kind of top tier talent that had a chance to make the difficult journey through the roadblocks she set up and arrive at her as the ultimate source. But... Mathilde could just not do that, and limit her acquisitions to things that wouldn't attract that level of heat.

I really don't see why the idea of "Yes, the black market exists, and is not trivially BTFO by Verenans" is a tough sell.

 

[Retrueno]

We're running a public library; this means that every book that's not really dangerous will be available for visiting scholars.

Since the chance to be identified grows with every tome added and that if we build a massive library scholars from all around the continent will come to K8P that means we're basically guaranteed to get caught if we use Ranaldian networks to buff our library significantly.

Remember - we're not talking about common books since Belegar can just buy those - no it'd be consistently bringing in rare tomes that are if not unique then available only in a handful of places: eventually people will grow suspicious of how works that got pillaged are appearing in the K8P library.

Click to shrink...

I disagree I think the bigger our library grows the harder it'd be to catch us. How would they know we haven't acquired the books through other means? Through a partnership with a library or through trade with the Druchii or Eonir, how could they verify the books we have haven't come out of the Library of Mournings or of the records of Barak Vlag or out of the Ice Court (assuming we secure copying rights in the future).

If we steal some books and then 3 or 5 years later they appear in our library how would they know it definitely had to be us.

 

[Tobtorp]

The apprentice already starts at 'very wealthy', making the EIC wealthier would not meaningfully increase Eike's comfort at this point, it would make it a more efficient tool though.

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And the EIC does not belong to Eike, she has very limited access to it's funds (because her grandma isn't an idiot) and again, it's not about "having money" it's about the "how did you actually get the money."
Grey wizards can abuse their wind on normal people much more then any other college can so they need to be sent in the right direction not to become dicks (and later on how to become dicks without being obvious about it.)

If Eike gets a talk from the bursar she has officially fucked up by a) being too greedy and b) being too obvious.

 

[Resonant]

We're running a public library; this means that every book that's not really dangerous will be available for visiting scholars.

Since the chance to be identified grows with every tome added and that if we build a massive library scholars from all around the continent will come to K8P that means we're basically guaranteed to get caught if we use Ranaldian networks to buff our library significantly.

Remember - we're not talking about common books since Belegar can just buy those - no it'd be consistently bringing in rare tomes that are if not unique then available only in a handful of places: eventually people will grow suspicious of how works that got pillaged are appearing in the K8P library.

Click to shrink...

The only books worth stealing instead of just buying are ones where they're rare and notable enough that it'd be obvious they were the same books that mysteriously went missing in this other collection over here. Those books are only worth owning in that having them is prestigious and reflects well on the library.

I suppose we could steal rare original-copy books and just hide them in the library, but that'd be pretty pointless.

Click to shrink...

Just wanted to point out some missing context here - one of the ideas for the bounty system would be to specifically target illegal books that will never be shown to the public, taken to remove them from existing smuggling rings of heretical cults, vampires, skaven, etc.

There could be the potential that such bounties leads to thieves stealing from legit institutions which preserve illegal books (like the Verenans), but we can apparently be quite specific in how to setup the bounties, so we could simply add a caveat to not raid them.

 

[ReImagined]

[ ] Set up a no-questions-asked bounty system for books within the Cult of Ranald
Results will be unreliable and depending on what is sought may result in blowback, but this may allow you to acquire books that would otherwise be entirely inaccessible.

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Seems pretty to clear to me, unreliable results and potential consequences. I'd pass unless whatever it is we're seeking is something we're in dire need of.

 

[DragonParadox]

Just wanted to point out some missing context here - one of the ideas for the bounty system would be to specifically target illegal books that will never be shown to the public, taken to remove them from existing smuggling rings of heretical cults, vampires, skaven, etc.

There could be the potential that such bounties leads to thieves stealing from legit institutions which preserve illegal books (like the Verenans), but we can apparently be quite specific in how to setup the bounties, so we could simply add a caveat to not raid them.

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OK you now have thieves messing around with proscribed texts and maybe spellbooks, if they get caught with that stuff they will be executed. Also there is a non-zero chance of horrible curses. Methinks it would be rather expensive even for those insane enough to try.

 

[Mellomania]

Only way i see it really being viable to set up a bounty for books with the ranaldians, was if it's only for information about the books we want instead of the books themselves.

 

[Derpmind]

I'd really rather she has someone she can turn to if something comes up then bring alone in the foreign quarters hoping nothing goes wrong.

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While only Mathilde (and luggage) can go to Nagarythe, we could send someone from WEBMAT to Lothern along with Eike, probably Johann or Egrimm. (Depending on who she gets along with; I don't think she's spent much time around Johann yet either.) If Eike can pull off even just a tenth the mischief that Wilhelmina would while in Lothern for three months...

 

[Simon_Jester]

Eike... we can resurrect her if she dies,...

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Wait what the what now?

 

[Mopman43]

Wait what the what now?

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The Seed in Mathilde's hand.

Only if she's been dead for a very short while of course. And it doesn't exactly heal the psychological damage.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Just wanted to point out some missing context here - one of the ideas for the bounty system would be to specifically target illegal books that will never be shown to the public, taken to remove them from existing smuggling rings of heretical cults, vampires, skaven, etc.

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Skaven books are mostly be available to high ranking Skaven - we'd get people killed over ledgers at best. Vampires are extremely deadly and can hold a grudge. Heretical cults? Some books wouldn't be entirely safe to handle for rando thieves. The yield wouldn't be great.


Furthermore if anyone finds that we're hoarding illegal books... well that's the sort of stuff that raises eyebrows.

I disagree I think the bigger our library grows the harder it'd be to catch us. How would they know we haven't acquired the books through other means? Through a partnership with a library or through trade with the Druchii or Eonir, how could they verify the books we have haven't come out of the Library of Mournings or of the records of Barak Vlag or out of the Ice Court (assuming we secure copying rights in the future).

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Because if it is a human book people aren't going to buy that it was in Eonir hands. Buying it off the Druchii would also come with a hefty reputation penalty.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I don't think that we actually need to spend extra effort to have Eike fight something. It's a dangerous world and with mage armor she is better able to handle it then most people.

Just send her on tasks that are actually useful and use the extra time saved to tutor her.

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M / Aethyric Armour: Magic wraps around you and acts as armour, with effectiveness based on your mastery of magic.

To be clear this means right now she has armour equivalent to leather when using AA. AA is only really incredible when you get to the very high end of magical ability where it starts to armour mages equivalent to full plate with all the trimmings and none of the downsides. With AA right now she's basically equivalent to a foot soldier, that puts her in drastically better a place than Mathilde was when she fought the first time on her own but lets be clear that could also have easily killed mathilde.

 

[BrainInAJar]

I think that sending to her to investigate the Cult of Ulric strikes a good balance between giving her practical experience and danger. Even if she only stays in Middenheim it's still good sleuthing practice and knowing how Ulricans are she'll probably get a few duels in anyway. Maybe she could even get invited to a hunt or a culling? Anyway, we kind of need someone to look into it, so we might get two birds with one stone here, and even if Eike doesn't get much it's still good training.

 

[Mopman43]

I think that sending to her to investigate the Cult of Ulric strikes a good balance between giving her practical experience and danger. Even if she only stays in Middenheim it's still good sleuthing practice and knowing how Ulricans are she'll probably get a few duels in anyway. Mayve she could even get invited to a hunt or a culling? Anyway, we kind of need someone to look into it, so we might get two birds with one stone here, and even if Eike doesn't get much it's still good training.

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I suppose it's true that we don't exactly need her to be going along an EIC action, we could just send her by herself...