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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Like it may turn out that the Schaden whatever swamp is not one of the navigable ones, but if there is enough depth for a horse to get water up to flanks which there iirc is, thats enough depth to sail a barge. So until disproven, this seems like the simplest, most economical solution.
 
Andres said:
You don't need to cut canals into a swamp, it's a swamp. You don't need to cut canals into a river either. Charting a route to Tor Lithanel would be done by local huffers, same as any other wetland huffers in the Empire do for trade boats.
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To be fair, define swamp.

Like, are we taking about a swamp swamp In the way a Morden scientist would think of it, or is it a type of wetland that most people just call 'swamp'

Because if you're thinking places like The Pantanal or the buyo, water heavy swamps full of rivers, then sure.

But if we are talking about Blankets/peat Bogs like The Bog of Allen good fucking luck getting a boat through there, there is a reason most people living in bog land invented stilts before the boat.
 
BurnNote said:
I'm pretty sure the plan assumed and cleared with Boney that the connection will use RoW if it's formalized on the same turn. So using RoW was the plan from the start.
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The "if" here carries a lot of weight. If it's formalized in one turn, and happens to meet the practical needs, then Mathilde will propose it. If not?
 
BurnNote said:
I'm pretty sure the plan assumed and cleared with Boney that the connection will use RoW if it's formalized on the same turn. So using RoW was the plan from the start.
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Not quite.
mathymancer said:
I understand that a Mist Path through the Schadensumpf would be good for the charcoal trade, what I'm still not sure about is whether taking the charcoal trade action before such a path exists would set up that trade or if Mathilde would have to re-take the action after a Schadensumpf route is built.
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Boney said:
Taking the action now would involve Mathilde figuring out a way to make it happen and probably a vote on which method she ends up choosing. If the trade is set up now and the Schadensumpf route is built later, then the trade would switch to that route (if it's a superior route) without Mathilde needing to take the action all over again.
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The RoW route will require another EIC action, the "Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences" one, and for that we wanted to have RoW codified first so that it requires much less of Mathilde's personal involvement. The logic on the charcoal action action was "do the deal now so that it's done and ready to go when there is actual practical overland travel, without any further work necessary." In hindsight I think we should have tried a spy action instead -- the charcoal trade isn't so crucial that we couldn't afford to wait six months and do it after the route gets built -- but I don't think it makes a big difference one way or another. We knew it wasn't a terribly practical route until the RoW bridges get built, but we're planning on building them, so.
 
BurnNote said:
I'm pretty sure the plan assumed and cleared with Boney that the connection will use RoW if it's formalized on the same turn. So using RoW was the plan from the start.
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But the actually road won't be built for several turns yet, and the EIC doesn't have a mage who can come along to cast it for their trade carts.

So...?

pucflek said:
Like it may turn out that the Schaden whatever swamp is not one of the navigable ones, but if there is enough depth for a horse to get water up to flanks which there iirc is, thats enough depth to sail a barge. So until disproven, this seems like the simplest, most economical solution.
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How deep it is will only be one half of the question. How unavoidably shallow it gets is the other half.

And this is a swamp used as a natural barrier. My bet is that if barge-paths did once exist, they've been deliberately destroyed by now.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
To be fair, define swamp.

Like, are we taking about a swamp swamp In the way a Morden scientist would think of it, or is it a type of wetland that most people just call 'swamp'

Because if you're thinking places like The Pantanal or the buyo, water heavy swamps full of rivers, then sure.

But if we are talking about Blankets/peat Bogs like The Bog of Allen good fucking luck getting a boat through there, there is a reason most people living in bog land invented stilts before the boat.
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Well, this is the Furdienst:
It seems that in the Empire, a wetland can have shallow enough water to drive a steam tank through it, and also deep enough water to allow big trade ships to travel through. If the Schadensumpf is like the Furdienst, it's not certain things'll be all good, but it is promising. Just a matter of finding the route.
 
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Glau said:
It does amuse me that the two most practical options seem to be "get someone else to figure it out" and "make a wildly impractical one-off magic thing". Seriously, how was charcoal trade supposed to work before rite of way?
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BurnNote said:
I'm pretty sure the plan assumed and cleared with Boney that the connection will use RoW if it's formalized on the same turn. So using RoW was the plan from the start.
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I'm sorry what did I miss by not reading all of the 100+ pages of vote arguments for the last turn? When did the idea that codified RoW will be massively simpler than battle magic appear?

Because I certainly wasn't assuming that the spell conceived and cast as battle magic would be involved in providing transport of bulk goods. Battle wizards are not going to be lining up to potentially explode into horrible miscasts to give the Eonir some charcoal. I just assumed there was some plausible traderoute that existed. Edit: Or could be made to do so without battle magic.
 
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Humbaba said:
Because I certainly wasn't assuming that the spell conceived and cast as battle magic would be involved in providing transport of bulk goods. Battle wizards are not going to be lining up to potentially explode into horrible miscasts to give the Eonir some charcoal. I just assumed there was some plausible traderoute that existed.
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Enchantment of keystones could provide a good, stable road which is good not just for charcoal but for... everything really. And it won´t stick in Elven craws because if they destroy/turn off the keystones or whatever the enchanted items are, its once again unnavigable and potent defensive measure. Unlike actual road that would take lot of time to deconstruct and thus a safety risk.
 
Glau said:
And this is a swamp used as a natural barrier. My bet is that if barge-paths did once exist, they've been deliberately destroyed by now.
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Well the villagers that settled the area had to get stuff out of there initially had to get the logs and silver out someway, and you better believe there was no road when it was just few campers. And why would laurelorn destroy the paths if all the people that knew them are dead and the land is back under their control?

I just flat out don=t understand the impetus behind "this will just not work" for the simplest, easiest solution when there are, in fact, navigable swamps and that it only requires that Eike asks if any of the forestborn know any such paths. If it won´t work out, it won´t, but asking doesn´t cost that much and if it does work out its by far the best idea raised up till now.
 
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pucflek said:
Enchantment of keystones could provide a good, stable road which is good not just for charcoal but for... everything really. And it won´t stick in Elven craws because if they destroy/turn off the keystones or whatever the enchanted items are, its once again unnavigable and potent defensive measure. Unlike actual road that would take lot of time to deconstruct and thus a safety risk.
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Battle Magic is extremely difficult. Finding Enchanters who can enchant items with Battlemagic is even more so. Getting an enchanter to make multiple such items (which are dangerous to make in the first place, since if it goes wrong you're on the battle magic level of miscast) seems.... quite difficult.
 
Actually @Boney , just because it's info that Eike would be able to get when she is doing her planning (even if it's not going to be defined that way in this time)

What type of wetland is Schadensumpf?

Is it actually a swamp? Or is it a Bog/Mire, Fen, Marsh, salt marsh, Wet meadow or Pocosins (I think those are the only types it could realistically be.)

It's kind of important because what one it is would determine if it was relatively easy to boat.

hard to boat.

Could use a wagon

Forget the wagon, a horse on its own would struggle.

Buy stilts.
 
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Humbaba said:
Battle Magic is extremely difficult. Finding Enchanters who can enchant items with Battlemagic is even more so. Getting an enchanter to make multiple such items (which are dangerous to make in the first place, since if it goes wrong you're on the battle magic level of miscast) seems.... quite difficult.
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You would literally be making something that affects relations on level of nations. I feel there is some prestige and favours involved in that.
 
I assume some of the swamp is sufficiently traversable, but you'd need to actually scout the route because nobody needed such a route other than smugglers and poachers
 
veekie said:
I assume some of the swamp is sufficiently traversable, but you'd need to actually scout the route because nobody needed such a route other than smugglers and poachers
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We could tap those people for information, and there'd also be people who live on the bounty of the swamp. Eelers, creel fishers and the like.
 
Orbmorb said:
Is that an official college policy or a result of the quest starting with Mathilde as a journeyman?
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I think Mopman mistyped, because we didn't unlock favor until Mathilde graduated to magister:
Boney said:
A night of celebratory excess later, you're making your fragile and hungover way back to Stirland, slumped over the neck of your shadowhorse. There's much to be done before you venture off, as well as the final decision to be made of which dwarven adventure you'll set off on.

+1 College Favour - Mathilde's Mystical Matrix
+1 College Favour - Matrix adopted by Jade Order!
+1 College Favour - Matrix adopted by Amber Order!
+1 College Favour - Graduated to Magisterial Rank
+2 College Favours - Proctors Impressed
+2 College Favours - Won Duel
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Glau said:
But the actually road won't be built for several turns yet, and the EIC doesn't have a mage who can come along to cast it for their trade carts.
So...?
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There was a somewhat vocal minority that wanted the charcoal option because it presented a possibility to get trade going between laurelorn and nordland. Which, even if possible, is unlikely to last post RoW bridge.
 
Andres said:
Well, this is the Furdienst:
It seems that in the Empire, a wetland can have shallow enough water to drive a steam tank through it, and also deep enough water to allow big trade ships to travel through. If the Schadensumpf is like the Furdienst, it's not certain things'll be all good, but it is promising. Just a matter of finding the route.
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Hmmm, it's been awhile since leaving cert geography, and the Furdienst is far enough away that it's probably completely different land. (And the artist probably don't know the difference.)

But that looks like a Mire to me, maybe a bog, but more a Mire.
 
It sounds like a lot of the logistics here depend on whether or not the Shadensumpf is navigable.
I think that it is plausible for it to be navigable.

A navigable swamp is still a super extremely effective natural barrier to an army crossing.

A river, which is generally a lot more navigable than a swamp is already a highly effective natural barrier, and many have formed natural borders throughout history.
Assuming complete navigability, a swamp that has plenty of places for Elven commandos to hide and strike from, water spirits allied to the elves, is broader than the English Channel, and has highly hostile terrain? Crossing that with an invading army is going to be as impressive if not more so than invading England across the channel, which has historically only worked when England was highly distracted. Not to mention that any buildup of boats to do so would be noticeable and sabotagable for a long time beforehand.

Thus, I believe that the swamp being navigable with river barges would not make it a huge security risk.
 
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