Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
There are dozens of us!
What it also reminds me of is Felix from Gotrek and Felix and the spoilers about how he found out about his spoilers. Felix is the epitomy of Ranald champions and has the same dwarf connection and anti aging thing that we do.

Edit: Go team fire cats! Flame kittens? Fiery felines? Infernous Kitisaurious? Are demigriph murderous tendencies and the elves similar fighting style a result of the sword of Kaine? Did drawing it split Asurian and Ranald into two gods? Ranaldsurian? Asurnald? Ranald Asurian Pendragon the third?

Edit edit: Is Loec Myrmidia?
 
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WFRP: Lustria, page 29

Belodar Whitesurf, a high priest of the Storm Weaver order, is the nearest thing the Citadel has to a Loremaster. Originally from Cothique, Whitesurf is a thrill-seeker who flies her Skycutter chariot into hurricanes for fun.

She also organises aerial missions to mitigate typhoons using prayer, magic, and plumes of a special powdered mineral. This is considered an important task, as winds from the south carry warpdust from the Southern Wastes. Though some consider Whitesurf a maverick, she's admired by naval officers for having Mathlann's favour.
 
This is me every day now:
Every day I try not to think about DL, proceed to think about it, refresh SV, see a notification, refresh the latest DL page, see nothing new, check my notifs and see torroar making a post between 100-200 words, click notifications read, then move on. I am a very normal person.

(BTW, if you're reading this Boney know that just because I miss you doesn't mean I believe you're obligated to do anything for me. Take as long of a break as you'd like, I'm just expressing my love rather than any entitlement).
 
This is me every day now:
Every day I try not to think about DL, proceed to think about it, refresh SV, see a notification, refresh the latest DL page, see nothing new, check my notifs and see torroar making a post between 100-200 words, click notifications read, then move on. I am a very normal person.

(BTW, if you're reading this Boney know that just because I miss you doesn't mean I believe you're obligated to do anything for me. Take as long of a break as you'd like, I'm just expressing my love rather than any entitlement).
Big Mood.
 
Speaking as someone who used to call themselves a writer but had to stop doing so because it's been literal years since they wrote anything (seriously Rex what the hell is wrong with you? I can't even blame depression for it because I'm not as depressed as I used to be.) I understand why this would be taking a while to write—Pan's magisterial promotion is not only important but also highly anticipated by the questers, and trying to get it right would mean putting yourself in a very specific mindset, which can be very tricky and exhausting to maintain.

So yeah, I can sympathize and understand all the difficulties that can make writing just not happen, because I've been there myself, and I don't want something as petty as my own impatience add another layer to that.

At the same time, I think it's a testament to Boney's skills and the trust we have in him that the thread is still active, with multiple people participating on an almost daily basis, and that's kinda cool.

... I'm not really sure where I'm going with the rest of this comment, but, uh, Divided Loyalties good, Boney good, questers good, depression bad, I'm going to shut up and get back to work.
 
At the same time, I think it's a testament to Boney's skills and the trust we have in him that the thread is still active, with multiple people participating on an almost daily basis, and that's kinda cool.
Also because the quest is so long, and the lore so delicious, that there are still things to discuss - which is very cool.
 
Honestly, I'm impressed that this is the first major stop since 2018.
Being fully accurate, it isn't- the Romance Vote went on for a few months- that was near the start of the pandemic, so people had a lot going on.

(And I'm not sure you're counting the official hiatus where even the thread stopped for awhile between 2018 and 2019- because it hadn't exploded in popularity until it came back September of 2019)

Obviously Boney has the right to take as much time as he needs.
 
Clearly, the healthiest way to deal with DL withdrawal is to write long and meandering speculation posts. Speaking of which, I mentioned before that the Dark Maiden that's mentioned in the myth of Myrmidia's mortal days gave me Old One vibes, but having thought about this a little bit more I realized that it's probably not true, but on the other hand what probably is true is that The Horned Rat was friends with Urmskaladrak.

See, the Dark Maiden Nahmud seems to be called "Dark" because of her skin tone, and her name suggests that she came to Tilea from Araby or Nehekhara. There's someone else that Myrmidia supposedly hung out with and left Nehekhara and/or Araby for Tilea: Khsar. So I started thinking that maybe the fall of Nehekhara lead to a sort of divine diaspora, of which the only definite example we're aware of is Khsar (aka Kavzar), but perhaps there are other Gods that jumped ship at the same time and perhaps the Dark Maiden is one of them, and that lead to the idea of looking into the timeline and seeing which Gods showed up after the Gods of Nehekhara got killed or whatever it was that happened to them.

Alas, the timeline in the wiki served to confuse more than illuminate. Nagash's great ritual - which I think is the event Borek refers to when he says "Elgi sorcery in Umgi hands carved corpses from the desert gods to be receptacles for the prayers of the dead" - postdates the fall of Tylos by more than five centuries. Possibly there's some other earlier event in Nehekaran history that caused Khsar to bail, or more likely the timeline in the wiki is the drawn from multiple contradictory sources and Boney is using different dates for some or all of those events. In any case Myrmidia's mortality and the story of the Dark Maiden happens circa 30 IC, over a thousand years after the fall of Nehekara, so in all likelihood the Dark Maiden has nothing to do with any of this and was just a mortal woman. Still, there might be a worthy avenue of research here - if we can figure out the timeline a little better and pin down the date of Khsar's immigration to Tylos then we might be able to start drawing connections between other Cults/Gods that showed up in that period and the Nehekharan pantheon.

"But mathymancer", I hear you say, "what the fuck does any of this have to do with The Horned Rat and Urmskaladrak?" Well, while researching this stuff I went digging through the wiki and the thread for stuff on Tylos. I didn't find out much that was of interest (though apparently Kavzar is misspelled "Kasvar" in 3e book and I have to wonder if that had a part in making Boney draw the connection to Khsar, since Khsar to Kasvar seems like a much smaller leap than Khsar to Kavzar) but I did find out one little tidbit which might be of some interest. You know how some of Mathilde's coins from Tylos have the Horned Rat on them, because apparently He was worshipped by the people of Tylos before He pranked them? Well:
So, was there a name, or any other inscription on the Tylosian coins which depicted the horned Divinity? I don't think they already called that god the Horned Rat back then, and usually coins like these have descriptive inscritions...

Holy shit, if we have the true name of the Horned Rat written on these coins I apologize for ever thinking it was a waste of an action to save and catalogue them.
Letters are rare on these coins, probably because they used hammered coinage rather than cast. The only ones associated with this God are ZL.
There's been some speculation on what ZL could mean, but I think a cigar is just a cigar and ZL stands for ZL. What's ZL? It's a city, of course.
The continents were reshaped into five, and five cities were founded and our five leaders each joined with one. Draugnir with the city of Qt, Abraxas with the city of Iz, Radixashen with the city of Cd, Urmskaladrak with the city of Zl, and Kalgalanos with the city of Cl.
Urmskaladrak is the dragon that got killed by Grimnir when trying to recapture the dwarves. The dwarves were escaping the Old Ones and the Gods that served as their wardens, one of which was Khsar. Many speculated that Hashut and The Horned Rat were likewise wardens of the Dawi, and that Kavzar is said by Borek to have been betrayed implies that he previously trusted the one behind the fall of Tylos, which is almost certainly The Horned Rat. I would say that the ZL on His coins clinches it; The Horned Rat was one of the wardens of Zl, speculated by many to be Zlatlan, and knew Khsar from the days when he served the same role.

In conclusion, I think we should write 'The Currency of Tylos' as our serenity paper next turn.
 
Alas, the timeline in the wiki served to confuse more than illuminate. Nagash's great ritual - which I think is the event Borek refers to when he says "Elgi sorcery in Umgi hands carved corpses from the desert gods to be receptacles for the prayers of the dead" - postdates the fall of Tylos by more than five centuries. Possibly there's some other earlier event in Nehekaran history that caused Khsar to bail, or more likely the timeline in the wiki is the drawn from multiple contradictory sources and Boney is using different dates for some or all of those events.
Nagash's undeadening of Nehekhara kind of has to post-date Khsar getting the hell out off dodge- because Khsar was in Tylos when the Skaven were born, and the Skaven were instrumental in stopping Nagash from taking over the world with the collected dead of Nehekhara.
 
Nagash's undeadening of Nehekhara kind of has to post-date Khsar getting the hell out off dodge- because Khsar was in Tylos when the Skaven were born, and the Skaven were instrumental in stopping Nagash from taking over the world with the collected dead of Nehekhara.
Hmm. What is the event that Borek refers to, then? When did Nagash 'carve corpses from the desert gods to be receptacles for the prayers of the dead'? The construction of the Black Pyramid, maybe? I think the timeline checks out in that case, or at worst it's off by decades rather than centuries.
 
Hmm. What is the event that Borek refers to, then? When did Nagash 'carve corpses from the desert gods to be receptacles for the prayers of the dead'? The construction of the Black Pyramid, maybe? I think the timeline checks out in that case, or at worst it's off by decades rather than centuries.
Just wanted to point out, I did a bit of my own musing on the timeline of Tylos in the post below:
Random musing about Tylos:

So, the only firm date I'm aware that we have for trade between Tylos and K8P is the one below:

That's 2702 in the Dwarf calendar. The Dwarf Year 1 is when Valaya took up permanent residence in Karaz-a-Karak, in IC that's -4523.

So the year that Mr. Nasir opened his account with the Grand Urbaz bank was -1821 IC. This is post-Nagash creating Necromancy, and in the middle of the War of Vengeance.

We don't know if this account was an early or late one, but we know that the relationship was established by this time.

Tylos was where Skavenblight is now, in the middle of modern Tilea. This area was home to Elven colonies prior to the War of Vengeance, so Tylos, a joint Human-Dwarf city in the middle of Elf territory, managed to both survive and trade with the Karaz Ankor while the KA was in the middle of it's apocalyptic war with Ulthuan. Which is interesting.

At some point Tylos falls to the Horned Rat and the capital of the Skaven is founded. We don't really have a solid idea when in-quest*, but it had to be before -1500 IC, because that's the Time of Woes and the Skaven were a major player in why it has that name.

*The 7th edition Skaven army book says the city fell around -1780 IC, but the Skaven keep no historical records so it's hard to say how much we can trust that for quest purposes
 
Hmm. What is the event that Borek refers to, then? When did Nagash 'carve corpses from the desert gods to be receptacles for the prayers of the dead'? The construction of the Black Pyramid, maybe? I think the timeline checks out in that case, or at worst it's off by decades rather than centuries.

Borek's statements might not be 100% technically accurate. Not only is there thousands of years and a whole-ass continent between him and Nagash, but he's also a half-naked politician-turned-holy warrior freezing his ass checks off in the frozen tundra. He's not a lorekeeper surrounded by his people's ancestral library.

He knows enough to communicate the broad strokes of history, but I wouldn't expect him to give us the actual, chronological play-by-play of events as they actually happened.
 
Borek's statements might not be 100% technically accurate. Not only is there thousands of years and a whole-ass continent between him and Nagash, but he's also a half-naked politician-turned-holy warrior freezing his ass checks off in the frozen tundra. He's not a lorekeeper surrounded by his people's ancestral library.

He knows enough to communicate the broad strokes of history, but I wouldn't expect him to give us the actual, chronological play-by-play of events as they actually happened.
"Khsar left Nehekhara because of what happened to the Nehekharan pantheon" is broad strokes. Borek getting the order wrong here makes the whole story kind of nonsensical.
 
This actually surfaces something I've been meaning to ask for a while:

What happened to Valaya?

Grimnir went into the warp, I assume Thrungi retreated to the glittering realm, but idk where or when Gazul, the engineer, and the others stepped off the mortal world.

Clearly, the healthiest way to deal with DL withdrawal is to write long and meandering speculation posts.

And now we must be enemies forever. Obviously the best use of time is to write omake!

(Actual omake in progress...)
 
This actually surfaces something I've been meaning to ask for a while:

What happened to Valaya?

Grimnir went into the warp, I assume Thrungi retreated to the glittering realm, but idk where or when Gazul, the engineer, and the others stepped off the mortal world
Supposedly, all the Ancestor Gods except Grimnir disappeared when the Vortex went up.

(I'm only excluding Grimnir because he previously marched north towards the pole and has never been seen again)
 
Hmm. What is the event that Borek refers to, then? When did Nagash 'carve corpses from the desert gods to be receptacles for the prayers of the dead'? The construction of the Black Pyramid, maybe? I think the timeline checks out in that case, or at worst it's off by decades rather than centuries.

I don't think this refers to Nagash necessarily. We know that Nehekhara was obsessed with carving great monuments to the dead from at least the time of Settras death. The mortuary cults priests became liches before Nagash (prayers of the dead), and we know that they superseded any other cult that may have existed in Nehekhara by the end of its existence.

Before Settras rise the Gods had already abandoned Nehekhara - only his piety and sacrifice restored the Covenant. And when his arrogance drove him to seek immortality and have himself built a bigger temple than any of the gods, would they have stuck around?

It's entirely possible that some of the gods of Nehekhara saw the path that their people were marching down and bailed on them early.
 
"Khsar left Nehekhara because of what happened to the Nehekharan pantheon" is broad strokes. Borek getting the order wrong here makes the whole story kind of nonsensical.
Mortuary cult has existed for longer than that thought.

I think there is a lot of alternatives, and us misunderstanding which event he refers to because it sure as hell sounds like Nagash is somewhat more likely than Borek getting the order wrong.

8th edition tomb kings specifically mentions in flavour text that Mortuary cult began to use winds of magic sometime between -2800 and -2000. It could be as innocent as Borek just conflating winds of magic as elgi bullshit, even if the instruction did not come from them.
 
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Note that the liches of the fifth generation and onwards of the mortuary cult weren't dead. The flaw of their process was that it stopped you dying of old age but didn't stop you aging, so your body just got older and older.

It's like that Hag Witch arcane mark. They're no more dead than our collaborator on the Waystone project.
 
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Note that the liches of the fifth generation and onwards of the mortuary cult weren't dead. The flaw of their process was that it stopped you dying of old age but didn't stop you aging, so your body just got older and older.

It's like that Hag Witch arcane mark. They're no more dead than our collaborator on the Waystone project.
Huh, I thought it was just khatep that was immortal without being undead while the rest were y'know, liches.
 
What exactly did Nagash do to the Nehekharan pantheon? A brief skim of his wiki entry tells me nothing about him "carving corpses from the desert gods to be receptacles for the prayers of the dead", as Borek put it.

Nagash's timeline is:
-Born, becomes a priest of the mortuary cult, usurps his younger brother, becomes king
-invents necromancy, begins construction of the black pyramid.
-An alliance of priest kings overthrow Nagash, and exile him for nearly 1000 years.
-Nagash comes back, wages a war against Alcadizaar the Conqueror, and casts a ritual that kills all the living in the kingdom.
-Skaven free the still living Alcadizaar, who uses a warpstone blade to slay Nagash.
-Alcadizaar pulls an Isildur and fails to destroy the Crown of Sorcery. It falls into the hands of Kadon the Mad (not to be confused with Kadon the pokemon trainer), and gradually drifts northwards into the lands that would become the Empire.
-Nagash wakes up as an undead horror, invades the Empire, and gets bullied hard by a barbarian with a shiny hammer.

So Tylos and Kavzar had already fallen when Nagash destroyed Khemri with his ritual of death in ~ -1151 IC. Nagash rose to power in ~ -2000 IC, and as Mopman states above, Tylos probably fell around ~ -1800's.

The only thing that fits the timeline is the creation of the Black Pyramid, which if you read between the lines, is basically just a giant waystone. He did create the first vampires at this time. No word of him doing anything to the gods, however, unless you count him usurping the mortuary cult's divine rituals into necromancy? Instead of mortuary rituals being prayers to the gods, they are now corrupted into "prayers for the dead"?

So it's the invention of necromancy that Borek is referencing, rather than anything direct against the gods themselves. But that still leaves the question of what happened to Khsar?

Hang on, I'm going on a bit of a wiki tangent now.

Nagash had to invade and conquer the other Khmri cities to fund the creation of the Black Pyramid, and I've just noticed that Khsar's patron city was Bhagar. Bhagar was originally home to desert nomads, who were originally conquered by Settra, and were famed for their horses. Nagash practically wiped the city off the map, enslaving most of the city, with "hundreds of refugees" fleeing to spread word of the atrocity.

Could Khsar have been one of those refugees? If so, that gives us a rough founding date for Tylos at around -2000 IC. The Skaven timeline on the wiki put its founding between -2500 and -2000, with a wandering clan of dwarves from the Black Mountains settling there in -1950 IC. "Many advances in architecture and engineering are achieved" in this time period.

Wait—was the Doom of Kavzar orchestrated by a dwarf? Why did this Black Mountain clan leave the mountains and settle in a human city? They were nomads and wanderers before—and Khsar is a god of nomads. The fact that they were wanderers suggests that they were one of the factions that rejected the Ancestor Gods, rather than embrace them as the Worlds Edge dwarves did.

So Nagash profanes the rituals of the mortuary cult with Dhar, creating necromancy. He conquers Bhagar, and Khsar, who was once the City Father of Zorn, leads the survivors north to Tylos. Khsar discovers a clan of wandering dwarf exiles, and invites them to settle down, becoming His people. The Dwarves call Him Kazvar, and the humans call him Tyleus, maybe? A century latter man and dwarf begin work on a great temple. A hundred years after that, it's completed, and the Doom of Kavzar occurs.

The Tilean version of the myth claims the Dwaves of Tylos were killed by the Skaven first, but the dwarf version claims that at the very end the last survivors of both races stood side by side.

What if it was a civil war? The dwarves who remained true to Khsar siding with the humans, whilst the dwarves who sided with the "grey hooded stranger" became the Skaven. The Black Mountain clan came seeking their old gods—and they found two of them.

The Skaven put the founding of Tylos as early as -2500 IC—but Khsar couldn't have arrived there any earlier than -2000 IC. Could the Horned Rat have been there first?

The Tylosian coins are fairly straightforward. They don't have the date of minting like modern coinage, but you're able to deduce a year for all of them by the date they started being deposited. Most of the golden coins are dedicated to either Myrmidia or a man who appears to be the city's legendary father of the Tilean people, Tyleus. There's also representations of Verena, Morr, and Shallya, as well as a God you don't recognize. From the symbology you'd guess Taal, except you're fairly sure Taal is one of the Northern Gods, and wouldn't have been known to the ancestors of Tilea. There's also some of the Dwarven Ancestor Gods scattered throughout. The silver coins are largely dedicated to temporal rulers, and judging by their turnover either they were elected to a temporary position of power, or Tylosian politics were especially rambunctious. You also see several dedicated to local prestige projects, temples and aqueducts and bridges and lighthouses. In some of the chronologically last coins, the depictions of a grand tower sends a shiver down your spine when you realize what it must be depicting.

Hmm, the most important coins are mainly dedicated to Myrmidia and Tyleus, but Verena, Morr, Shallya and the Horned Rat are all also represented. The ancestor gods are included as well—well, there was open trade between Tylos and the Karaz Ankor, so maybe many of the Dwarves still honoured the Ancestor Gods? And it doesn't really prove that Tyleus and Khsar are the same—why would the "Faceless Wind" have His face stamped on a coin? That said, Borek called Khsar "the City Father", so maybe they are the same?

So Tyleus (who might be Khsar, evidence inconclusive) founds the city around -2500 IC. Circa -2000 IC Khsar leads both human refugees and dwarf nomads to the city, who settle down. The Horned Rat is there as well. A great temple to the gods is constructed, but the Horned Rat usurps it. His followers become the Skaven, and kill everyone else. Khsar is broken by this, and becomes the champion of the Beastmen—perhaps some sort of memory of Bhagar's noble herds of horses slain by Nagash lingers on?
 
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