I'd guess their name would be something like "bull people", because they're all about bulls and sometimes turn into bulls. Maybe "stone people", as a translation of the dwarven name for dwarves. And because they also turn into stone.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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Codex
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That's Nieuren and Shitou Ren respectively. People being "Ren", Stone being Shi or Shitou, and Nieu being Bull.
Nieuren looks pretty good, actually.
Somic
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headcanon adopted
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It used to say that Ulthuan was straight up banned to Ylvathoi outside a few cities, that the policies to rebuild foreign relations began with Finubar, and it lacked emphasis on how enthusiastic the Phoenix Kings have been about opening up.
Codex
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I like how happy Cubicle 7 seems to be with making alterations to their own text to comply with older canon. From what you're saying, you presented evidence from older sources (supplied by Boney), and they listened and complied instead of proceeding with their own thing. As much as they are keen to make new stuff and iterate on the old, they seem to be just as willing to respect the old source material where it is needed.
There are issues that I have with some of the Cubicle 7 books and the decisions they made, but there is no doubt that I respect what they've done and continue to do with the setting.
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Cubicle 7's pretty big on working with old lore wherever possible, Salzenmund being the biggest example I know of. My guess is they thought they were adhering to canon with regards to the Ylvathoi stuff since "Ulthuan is banned except for Lothern" is a pretty common misconception in the community, one that prompted Boney's post in the first place. Since they added trade cities outside Lothern in Sea of Claws, I'm guessing C7 wanted to expand the number of places players can go to in Ulthuan and are happy they now know they have the lore's permission to do so.
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Can you somehow slide a mentionn of Gor-Dum in there somewhere? So that the shitty font choice doesn't mean he's forever know by the wrong name of Cor-Dum.
Also, I'm amused by the idea that two years from now, when a new user joins who's read the new books and has the right name, they're like "Hey, did you know it's actually Gor-Dum?". Y'know, create a better world, even if it means you no longer have a place in it.
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Mopman43
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Just to be clear, only one of the books looks like Cor-Dum, the other Beastmen army book uses a font with clear Gs.
(And everybody is going to read the wiki instead of the books anyway and I corrected that mistake ages ago)
I would probably drop the 小 to reduce the connotation of "child," and perhaps use something like 侏人 as the base instead. Maybe if a dragon has very strong wind sight, and noticed that dwarves look a lot like stone to wind sight (or something like that if they do), then they might get called short stone people, 侏石人. Otherwise, mountain people, underground people, or hairy people would be culturally reasonable things for China to call them that to my knowledge would be unlikely to be offensive to the dwarves.
Alternatively, if they were not worried about being offensive, they might call them the "legendary," name for dwarves which looks a lot to me like "argumentative/remonstrative people," 诤人。I am not familiar enough with those legends to know if the stories of them fit thematically, though.
At least warhammer dwarves do like to argue and grumble amongst themselves.
xamaplak
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"That's a grudge- no wait they're right."
"Bah, that's still grudge-worthy ye wassock."
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Some speculation about Myrmidia. Be warned, this is another rambling one without a clear conclusion.
I was thinking about Tylos and the being formerly known as Khsar, and about the fact that Myrmidia is said to have abandoned the founder of Tylos in disgust. Myrmidia is also said to have been a Goddess that walked the world, which fits Morghur, so I thought that maybe Myrmidia is also an Old One Goddess or at least had some connection to them. I've been skimming the wiki article on Her to see if I kind find anything suggesting something like this, and other than the mysterious "Dark Maiden" which gives me Old One vibes for literally no reason I couldn't really find anything, but I think I might have stumbled about something else entirely.
Here's the abbriviated history of Myrmidia, as told by the ever reliable wiki (this is apparently from a 4e source):
We have the story of Tylos again, but I'm more interested in the very end, where Mrymidia sails West. Sailing West was actually mentioned twice in the story, once as where Myrmidia is sailing and once as where the Elves sailed to, which made me think of possible Elf-Myrmidia connections, and, well... Mrymidia sails West, following the Undying sun, and returns from the dead to rule from a Heavenly Throne. You see what I'm getting at, right?
Asuryan is the God of the sun, the Phoenix who rises from the ashes, Emperor of the Heavens who sits on a diamond throne. The parallels are pretty striking. There's also the fact that Myrmidia has the sun among Her symbols, as well as the eagle. Having an eagle symbol is in principle not a big connection to the phoenix - all the Classical Gods have bird symbols - but looking at the actual pictures in the wiki I feel like Her eagle symbol and the phoneix symbol are kind of similar.
So I was not necessarily thiking that Myrmidia is Asuryan, but I begun to think there might be some connection there, and then I remembered Cython, who claimed to have no explanation for Myrmidia's parentage if we assume the classical Gods are distinct from the Cadai. One possible theory for Myrmidia - one I suspect Cython might subscribe to - is that she is not the daughter of Morr and Verena but of Asuryan and Lileath. The daugther of the God of empire and martial prowess and the Goddess of mercy and forgiveness actually fits Myrmidia pretty well. Humans explain Myrmidia's conenction to prophecy as Her being the daughter of Morr, but Lileath is also the Goddess of prophecy. It is said that Verena taught her how to keep time using the heavens and so she gave a lunar calendar to Her people, and as the Goddess of the moon Lileath fits this myth as well.
Finally, I'm going to tie this all togther by noting that when Boney revealed the table he rolled on for Karag Dum's fate Asuryan was there right next to Kshar, and therefore...look I don't know but there's got to be something here, apophenia can't possibly explain all of this, right? Right???
I was thinking about Tylos and the being formerly known as Khsar, and about the fact that Myrmidia is said to have abandoned the founder of Tylos in disgust. Myrmidia is also said to have been a Goddess that walked the world, which fits Morghur, so I thought that maybe Myrmidia is also an Old One Goddess or at least had some connection to them. I've been skimming the wiki article on Her to see if I kind find anything suggesting something like this, and other than the mysterious "Dark Maiden" which gives me Old One vibes for literally no reason I couldn't really find anything, but I think I might have stumbled about something else entirely.
Here's the abbriviated history of Myrmidia, as told by the ever reliable wiki (this is apparently from a 4e source):
Article: "And Tylos came to be recognised chief of the wandering Kavzar and sought to found a city for his folk. And he made covenant with Myrmidia to erect its walls, and so it was deftly done. Yet Tylos was unsatisfied, for the cities of the Elvenkind were greater, and so he bid his tribe to raise a white tower to the heavens. But Myrmidia scorned his pride and abandoned the city, and it fell to rapacious vermin, and therein foetid ground now lies, neglected and abused. And Elf and Dwarf fought, and the Elves departed, sailing their shining ships to the West, and the Dwarfs' Everlasting Realm was brought low through the wickedness of Goblins, and Mankind filled the void and they did prosper and spread their seed. And Myrmidia took pity on the scattered tribe of Tylos, and walked among them as a mortal woman, and took up her Spear of Righteousness and Shield of Honour and slew the enemies of Men in their thousands. War was won with fire-forged metal, and the tribes of Tilea and Estalia raised her as their Queen. Yet fresh was the crown on her brow when a dart daubed in poison laid her low, and with her dying breath she bade them build a Great Ship, and she drifted seawards to the West, following the undying sun. And so she was raised once more to the halls of the divine, to rule the southern lands from a Heavenly Throne..."
We have the story of Tylos again, but I'm more interested in the very end, where Mrymidia sails West. Sailing West was actually mentioned twice in the story, once as where Myrmidia is sailing and once as where the Elves sailed to, which made me think of possible Elf-Myrmidia connections, and, well... Mrymidia sails West, following the Undying sun, and returns from the dead to rule from a Heavenly Throne. You see what I'm getting at, right?
Asuryan is the God of the sun, the Phoenix who rises from the ashes, Emperor of the Heavens who sits on a diamond throne. The parallels are pretty striking. There's also the fact that Myrmidia has the sun among Her symbols, as well as the eagle. Having an eagle symbol is in principle not a big connection to the phoenix - all the Classical Gods have bird symbols - but looking at the actual pictures in the wiki I feel like Her eagle symbol and the phoneix symbol are kind of similar.
So I was not necessarily thiking that Myrmidia is Asuryan, but I begun to think there might be some connection there, and then I remembered Cython, who claimed to have no explanation for Myrmidia's parentage if we assume the classical Gods are distinct from the Cadai. One possible theory for Myrmidia - one I suspect Cython might subscribe to - is that she is not the daughter of Morr and Verena but of Asuryan and Lileath. The daugther of the God of empire and martial prowess and the Goddess of mercy and forgiveness actually fits Myrmidia pretty well. Humans explain Myrmidia's conenction to prophecy as Her being the daughter of Morr, but Lileath is also the Goddess of prophecy. It is said that Verena taught her how to keep time using the heavens and so she gave a lunar calendar to Her people, and as the Goddess of the moon Lileath fits this myth as well.
Finally, I'm going to tie this all togther by noting that when Boney revealed the table he rolled on for Karag Dum's fate Asuryan was there right next to Kshar, and therefore...look I don't know but there's got to be something here, apophenia can't possibly explain all of this, right? Right???
Are they actually? Looking at major Old World Gods - by which I mean Gods that are or were patrons of nations or of significant political entities - none among Taal, Sigmar, Ulric, The Lady, and the Widow have the sun among their symbols. Taal might be the closest, being associated with summer, but He still doesn't have the sun itself as a symbol I don't think. Dazh is the only other major-ish God with a sun symbol in the Old World afaik.
Birds are more common, as I said, and I guess Sigmar's griffon counts as a big bird, kind of. If you want to count Shallya as major (her Cult doesn't have as much political influence as the others I mentioned but it is very widespread) then that's another bird, but not a big one. And again, looking at the actual pictures for Myrmidia's eagle and Asuryan's phoneix they seem pretty similar to me, their feathers have a very distinct and imo similar shape. On further consideration I think it might just be that eagles and phoneixes are both raptors and so have similar looking wings?
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I mean in mythology in general.
Sun is important and noticeable, birds flight is kinda impressive, eagles especially.
I could easily see two mythologies, even relatively close to each other, adopt both as important symbols for their main god.
I could also see two authors writing lore for Warhammer landing on them both with no communication or awareness of each others work.
Now, having the elves sail west, and then have Myrmidia also sail west, are much better clues for a potential link, though that could also just be that there's more ocean to the west the people telling tales have little knowledge of (also sun goes there).
The sun is probably one of Taal's symbols, as outside Solland his cult destroyed the cult of Sol and appropriated his portfolio as god of the sun, as part of his portfolio of being the god of all natural phenomena that humans don't control, of which the sun is one example.
That fact about the Cult of Sol is interesting, but I don't think it's enough to make the sun one of Taal's symbols. In practice I can't find any source that has the sun used to symbolize Taal or his worship. Note the example of the Order of the Blazing Sun, a Myrmidian order that has the sun in its name and its banner and is also based in Talabheim - if the sun was a symbol of Taal I imagine that would cause some friction.
Somic
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I don't know why this brings me so much joy. Vampire elf vampire elf aaaaaaaa
Codex
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In the old source regarding Imperial Heraldry, it is stated that the reason Averland has a sun in its flag is because they were paying homage to Solland and the refugees who fleed to Averland. Soll may have been usurped by Taal, but he has made a comeback as a minor god in Wissenland with the same portfolio. He didn't even come back with a hat and mustache on like Lupos who rebranded to remain relevant in Hochland against Ulric.
Taal's thing about usurping other Cults is somewhat wishy washy. Sometimes it ends up like Ahalt, where they were apparently genocided and decided to become an undeground cult dedicated to blood sacrifice and revenge. Other times it ends up with Soll disappearing for a thousand years then knocking on Wissenland's door like nothing happened.
Asuryan and Lileath? Don't you mean Ranald and Shallya? Look me in the eyes and tell me with a straight face that at least one of their daughters wasn't a teen pregnancy foisted off on the grandparents. I dare you.
Tyrion in the Tyrion and Teclis books talks about the elven love for deception and intrigue.
Did Aenarion not take the biggest Gamble when drawing the sword of Kaine? What was he doing while wandering the world that would not be mentioned in the histories. He was likely Protecting the Innocent, possessed and used the elven affinity for Deception to do it, and was anonymous and Stealthy about it so as not to be mentioned in the histories.
Did Finubar not Gamble on Stealing Marienburg through Deception to Protect the Innocent? Did it not cause Ranald and his Jack'o'the'sea guise to flourish?
All warfare is based on deception, and using a sword like the sword of Kaine is against Ranald, causing him to harm the innocent and withdrawing Ranald's protection, causing the curse. Do elves not fight like predatory Cats that are twisted and warped? Except for Tyrion who is like a young Aenarion reborn before the sword of Kaine was pulled?
Is every Ranaldite not the leader of their own private empire?
I don't know jack about Shallya and Lileath. :/
I think Ranald and Asurian are either the same or were friends and colleagues. Ranald and the elves both have a connection to the sea, and the elves to proclaim themselves protectors of the world (innocent people's of it) and it's in part a deception, possibly caused by the influence of the curse of Kaine.
Was the vortex not a huge Gamble using repurposed Stolen stones to Protect the Innocent? Did Calador not Rebel against tainted Aenarions orders to not make it, Deceiving tainted Aenarion as to what he was doing until the very end?
What if Ranald's dislike of swords stems from the fall of his old friend Aenarion?
I want to get eyes on the phoenix king to check this theory out.
Still, honorable combat at the intersection of deceptive protecting of the innocent and the mother of mercy raised by wisdom death and dreams.
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