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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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its probably best to keep it regional to the Forest of Shadows.

keeping things civil between the local Witch Hunters/cult of Sigmar and the Haletha Hedgewise would be way easier if it says in the forest of shadows.

we can find other weird rituals for other parts of the empire/old world.
 
Boney said:
You can do a ritual that's in a language you don't know, but you shouldn't. Words of magical languages do have arcane meaning even if the person saying them doesn't understand them, but they work more easily and reliably if the person's thoughts are in synch with the words. And it's extremely easy to garble or misremember a single syllable and be completely unaware that the ritual's going to blow up in your face when you finish it, and for a translation of the instructions to communicate something poorly due to it missing words for the precisely right concepts.
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Or even that the ritual words don't say what you think they say and you have agreed to sell your soul to some demon.
 
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IronFist said:
I was referring to using AV to identify the gods they worship. (As a joke, not a relitigation)
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I'm saying it wouldn't matter.

You could prove with 100% authority that the Ranaldians are worshipping Ranald, and that doesn't matter, because there's all the other branches that don't worship Ranald and can do the same things they can.

The only way you could legalize the Hedgewise as a Cult would be if they could agree what they're a Cult of. And the only way that could happen is if only the traditions of one branch survives.
 
Well, this will be tremendously useful! This is the first usable, practical result out of the Waystone Project, and it will do a lot to legitimize it. Time to talk to the Emperor, I think!
 
So, I get that waystones/tributaries pull magic out of the air and send it away, thereby delaying chaos subsuming the world, but I'm kinda curious what the actual, immediate practical effects of installing a bunch more tributaries around the empire would be? Like, would less animals mutate into beastmen from the ambient Dhar being lower? Less humans mutating too would be nice come to think of it. Less hostile forest spirits preying on isolated travelers? Would wizards, both legal and corrupted, find it harder to gather up enough magic in the area to cast spells? Hm.

Edit: It'd be really nice to get some more tributaries feeding into the Karaz Ankor network, since we know that actually gets used to power all their old runeworks, that'd be a nice direct effect to get from the Project.
 
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Boney said:
A bit of both. It's an abstraction, don't poke it too much.
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My mind was going to how weak casters can do powerful things with Dhar and how Dhar or Chaos can even empower someone with no inherent magical ability. For some reason I thought that rituals are similar. I.e. that a Perpetual with Magic 1 could cast a very difficult ritual as long as their talents of precision and concentration and dexterity are superb enough and that all the actual magical oomph required comes solely from how the exact ritual convinces the universe and the powers that be that something magical is really supposed to happen right now.

I don't want to poke at the nitty gritty of "actual" magical theory and whatever precise actions are actually involved when a humanoid breaks the laws of physics and exerts their will upon the world through moving weird and thinking hard. I just want to know how off the mark I was about who can cast what kinds of rituals.

Though if I understood correctly then others have already answered my question and, according to official rules and lore, rituals are a replacement for narrow paradigms and direct Wind manipulation, but not for raw magical power. You still need to be a great natural magic user in order to achieve great effects (barring lucky rolls that greatly reduce difficulty levels during rolls).
Pempelune said:
Well, this will be tremendously useful! This is the first usable, practical result out of the Waystone Project, and it will do a lot to legitimize it. Time to talk to the Emperor, I think!
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I think people are overestimating the use of Tributaries. Or I am underestimating them. I guess on screen we've only seen what a Tributary does in a natural environment, not in one that's overloaded with magic, let alone Dhar. So maybe that's why I am underestimating them. Because the only time one appeared on screen it was having a miniscule effect on the environment and sending too little magic to the Waystone to be perceptible.
 
Boney said:
Because the Witch Hunters would say they are lying, and would lay out proof that they are lying, and then kill them.
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I know the thread will blow kittens about this: But we need to talk to a high-ranking member of the Cult of Sigmar (ideally an Arch Lector that is pragmatic, though that's probably too convenient) to 'circle this square' for us; we simply don't know enough about the cult politics to find a way for Witch hunters in the north to play nice with the hedgewise, even low key.

and I dont think Kasmir is in tone enough with the 'game' this far north, if he is even in good standing anymore.
 
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Our report to the Emperor is going to be kinda crazy:

- three working rituals that strengthen the existing network, all dependent on magic users who are varying flavours of illegal in the Empire
- a working recreation of the rune that marks each waystone that is easy to reproduce
- discovery of the intelligence that guides the network, as well as speculation on their identity
- map of the network in the Empire and the Border Princes
- status of the Reikland nexus and whether or not we can use it to bypass Marienburg
- the vortex the Ice Witches made
 
Rafin said:
I think people are overestimating the use of Tributaries. Or I am underestimating them. I guess on screen we've only seen what a Tributary does in a natural environment, not in one that's overloaded with magic, let alone Dhar. So maybe that's why I am underestimating them. Because the only time one appeared on screen it was having a miniscule effect on the environment and sending too little magic to the Waystone to be perceptible.
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The environment wasn't overloaded with magic because there was a Tributary there, perpetually pumping away any magic above background level. They extend and deepen the reach of Waystones. They'll allow us to fix up the network in any place where there are still extent Waystones, which is a huge part of the Old World.
And that's great, because it means our backers can look at our research project and see more than impressive members, they can see actual results.
 
Wiggy said:
Edit: It'd be really nice to get some more tributaries feeding into the Karaz Ankor network, since we know that actually gets used to power all their old runeworks, that'd be a nice direct effect to get from the Project.
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Ideally it's something that both sides benefit from, like redirecting some of the energy from Sylvania to activate Karak Kadrin's Third Axe of Grimnir, and close peak pass.
 
Friendly reminder that we give the Brettonian Damsels the hard sell when they do want to buy in to our project because we already bothered giving them the "nice" way twice.

Obviously this is still a bit advanced for now, but I just wanted to remind people.
 
Rafin said:
My mind was going to how weak casters can do powerful things with Dhar and how Dhar or Chaos can even empower someone with no inherent magical ability. For some reason I thought that rituals are similar. I.e. that a Perpetual with Magic 1 could cast a very difficult ritual as long as their talents of precision and concentration and dexterity are superb enough and that all the actual magical oomph required comes solely from how the exact ritual convinces the universe and the powers that be that something magical is really supposed to happen right now.

I don't want to poke at the nitty gritty of "actual" magical theory and whatever precise actions are actually involved when a humanoid breaks the laws of physics and exerts their will upon the world through moving weird and thinking hard. I just want to know how off the mark I was about who can cast what kinds of rituals.

Though if I understood correctly then others have already answered my question and, according to official rules and lore, rituals are a replacement for narrow paradigms and direct Wind manipulation, but not for raw magical power. You still need to be a great natural magic user in order to achieve great effects (barring lucky rolls that greatly reduce difficulty levels during rolls).
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Though it's a lot harder to do, you can make a ritual that anyone with a tiny amount of magical ability can do, or even that anyone could do, by putting the burden of magical power on the ingredients or conditions it requires. This can get expensive or unethical or both in a hurry, though. A lot of the more forbidden rituals resort to things like human sacrifice or a Daemonic patron or warpstone.
 
IronFist said:
Ideally it's something that both sides benefit from, like redirecting some of the energy from Sylvania to activate Karak Kadrin's Third Axe of Grimnir, and close peak pass.
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Ridiculous stretch goal: reclaim Thunder Mountain and restore the Tectonic Shackle. Our belt makes us immune to lava, the dragon-ogres who live there are weak and sickly, and it's on our doorstep. In and out, 15 minute adventure.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I know the thread will blow kittens about this: But we need to talk to a high-ranking member of the Cult of Sigmar (ideally an Arch Lector that is pragmatic, though that's probably too convenient) to 'circle this square' for us; we simply don't know enough about the cult politics to find a way for Witch hunters in the north to play nice with the hedgewise, even low key.

and I dont think Kasmir is in tone enough with the 'game' this far north, if he is even in good standing anymore.
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We are the most terrible of all possible people to be talking to the Cult of Sigmar short of the actually Chaos corrupted. Mathilde has:
  • Decent but not stellar diplomacy
  • No traits specifically that help with the Cult
  • Not even the basic Sigmar piety skill
  • A abiding hatred of Signmar
Not the person you want to be conducting delicate negotiations with them, she would more likely than not make things worse
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Ridiculous stretch goal: reclaim Thunder Mountain and restore the Tectonic Shackle. Our belt makes us immune to lava, the dragon-ogres who live there are weak and sickly, and it's on our doorstep. In and out, 15 minute adventure.
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Though that gets into the question of whether the Shackle is physically lost or just depowered.

(Well, it's definitely depowered, but the major question is if we actually need to get into Thunder Mountain to find it to reactivate it)
 
DragonParadox said:
We are the most terrible of all possible people to be talking to the Cult of Sigmar short of the actually Chaos corrupted. Mathilde has:
  • Decent but not stellar diplomacy
  • No traits specifically that help with the Cult
  • Not even the basic Sigmar piety skill
  • A abiding hatred of Signmar
Not the person you want to be conducting delicate negotiations with them, she would more likely than not make things worse
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Just because Mathy is bad at it doesn't mean it's not the thing to do. Hence it being a problem that needs solving.
 
Mopman43 said:
Though that gets into the question of whether the Shackle is physically lost or just depowered.

(Well, it's definitely depowered, but the major question is if we actually need to get into Thunder Mountain to find it to reactivate it)
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Thorgrim just says "lost", which could honestly mean anything. But notably, he implies that Thunder Mountain fell because the Shackle was lost, not that it was lost when it fell.

Boney said:
The Tectonic Shackle of Thungni, lost, and Thunder Mountain unleashed once more. When it could no longer be permanently garrisoned due to poisonous gases and magma outflows, it did not take long to fall.
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So the sequence of events is: Something happened to the Shackle, the resulting volcanic activity forced them to pull their forces out, and then gribbles swarmed in and occupied the now-empty mountain.

This to me suggests that the Shackle might not actually be in the mountain any more (if it ever was to begin with)?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Thorgrim just says "lost", which could honestly mean anything. But notably, he implies that Thunder Mountain fell because the Shackle was lost, not that it was lost when it fell.



So the sequence of events is: Something happened to the Shackle, the resulting volcanic activity forced them to pull their forces out, and then gribbles swarmed in and occupied the now-empty mountain.

This to me suggests that the Shackle might not actually be in the mountain any more (if it ever was to begin with)?
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The going assumption would be that the issue with the Shackle is that it was depowered from the loss of Karaks, same as, say, the Eyes of Grimnir.
 
DragonParadox said:
We are the most terrible of all possible people to be talking to the Cult of Sigmar short of the actually Chaos corrupted. Mathilde has:
  • Decent but not stellar diplomacy
  • No traits specifically that help with the Cult
  • Not even the basic Sigmar piety skill
  • A abiding hatred of Signmar
Not the person you want to be conducting delicate negotiations with them, she would more likely than not make things worse
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You're missing the clear advantage Mathilde has.

As she is a Dwarf the Cult of Sigmar are obligated to aid her. :V
 
Casting a ritual which might enrage water spirits in an area where we're moving to depndence on a set of powerful water gods is a dubious proposition.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Just because Mathy is bad at it doesn't mean it's not the thing to do. Hence it being a problem that needs solving.
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Whilst it would be nice to help the Hedgewise, there are an endless array of problems and injustices that need addressing in this setting. Mathilde should focus on those she's positioned to actually do something about, rather than insert herself into something she's ill-suited for.
 
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