Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Alectai]

Caldera's distinct from the Eastern Valley, it'd be a huge pain in the ass to seize that without potentially years of preparation, because holy shit it's a bad place to be caught in if you're not already in an overpowering position.

To even dream of making a play on the Caldera, we need Karagril, which is going to be a pain in the ass to take because it also sort of obligates us to depopulate Black Crag first unless we want to open up a new salient for the enemy. That doesn't allow us to win, it just lets us start by enveloping the Caldera from two sides and allowing us to call down artillery fire from any point in Eight Peaks--in theory.

From there, we have a choice to either depopulate the trolls in Kvinn-Wyr and then push through the southern salient to envelop that angle, or push for Karag Zilfin, which is probably going to be the Final Boss of Eight Peaks with all the warrens in there and the sheer size of the place--it isn't going down as easily as Lhune did now that the element of surprise is lost.

And all the while, we'll have the war in the depths devouring fighters like crazy. Not good times.

 

[Neshuakadal]

Caldera's distinct from the Eastern Valley, it'd be a huge pain in the ass to seize that without potentially years of preparation, because holy shit it's a bad place to be caught in if you're not already in an overpowering position.

To even dream of making a play on the Caldera, we need Karagril, which is going to be a pain in the ass to take because it also sort of obligates us to depopulate Black Crag first unless we want to open up a new salient for the enemy. That doesn't allow us to win, it just lets us start by enveloping the Caldera from two sides and allowing us to call down artillery fire from any point in Eight Peaks--in theory.

From there, we have a choice to either depopulate the trolls in Kvinn-Wyr and then push through the southern salient to envelop that angle, or push for Karag Zilfin, which is probably going to be the Final Boss of Eight Peaks with all the warrens in there and the sheer size of the place--it isn't going down as easily as Lhune did now that the element of surprise is lost.

And all the while, we'll have the war in the depths devouring fighters like crazy. Not good times.

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One thing to remember when planning the future assaults of K8P is that we can mountain hop Kvinn-Wyr. We don't need to take the mountain just the underway beneath it. It would make an assaults on other karags a bit more difficult because we would be assaulting up.

 

[torac]

Not caught up but have to post because of how ridiculous I find several of the arguments so far.

1) Don't simplify aspects to a general and binding rule of "Don't tell people, ever."!
2) No, you are not automatically dooming everything by telling dwarves that their ancient enemies did something *grasp* evil.
3) It is incredibly patronizing to treat someone close to fifty times her age or even their entire race as children who will throw a temper tantrum and/or kill the messenger of some disliked news.
4) The fact that Mathilde does not know the strategic and theological implications of an event is an argument for telling the people who would know, not against it.
5) Ranald is not some super-hated deity worship of whom will turn everyone against you.

Extra points:
Ranald is NOT THE GOD OF (always keeping) SECRETS.
I don't get why this misconception is so persistent. Quoting from the lexicanum: He is a "charming and rogueish thief" "driven by his irrepressible sense of humour" who likes "humiliating pompous and imperious merchants". Making his exploits public is not a downside or somehow a huge betrayal of his core tenants. It's the opposite, if anything. Get away with tweaking the nose of some bigshot, then make the humiliation as public as possible.

"Need to know" means telling people who need to know.
I have seen the phrase thrown out several times as a blanket argument for not telling them, which is absolutely ridiculous. The very point of the discussion is finding out who needs to know. Saying that the info being "need to know" means we don't tell the dwarves already requires the pre-supposition that these two don't need to know. It's putting the carriage before the horse.

Mathilde being possessed will not make the reputation of all wizards plummet.
Everyone already knows that gods can directly influence people. The fact that a god could channel their power through her to do what she wanted to do anyway is not some big gotcha. Duh, if you act on behalf of a god in a nexus of their power and they care enough they can act through you. That's not a big relevation. The only somewhat interesting point is that you don't have to be a worshiper of that god for this, but when will that even come up? Even if it does, they are just strengthening what you are already trying to do, so who cares? (I do, this has very interesting theological implications. I just don't think it's a bad thing.)

It's impossible to tame an arcane mark, they are part of the bearer's soul.

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Pretty sure we already had trying to gain more control of the shadow as a choice.

I can't imagine how it would be relevant to be honest. What are they suposed to do, send a letter to their mad kin to stop with the sorcerous experimentation?

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Finding out that Black Orcs are not fully integrated into the greenskin pantheon/worship might have wide-ranging implication. For example, this might lead to religious schisms and them killing each other… kind of like what happened here.

Grey Wizard of Ranald who Couldn't Spit It Out for the one guy she was interested in. Unless Mathilde plans on giving Kazrina competition, she should keep her mouth shut.

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What does not confessing her crush to her boss have to do with withholding strategic information?

are you really saying he is a closer friend then Anton?

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Why would they be required to be friends to talk to each other!?

The very concept of need to know is something people can't stand

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As said above, the question of who "needs to know" is at issue. It is not an argument for either side.

it's in the dwarves best interests not to know about the origin of the black orcs

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That is extremely patronizing, especially for someone who has no chance of even fully understanding what has happened, much less the consequences.

No, she isn't; she's being loyal to her god. Her loyalty to her god comes before any loyalty to the dwarves.

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These loyalties are not mutually exclusive. @BoneyM even directly said that this was Mathilde's choice and not Ranald's.

there is also the real chance of getting something like [-20 Ranald's annoyance] for breaking the core tenet of don't tell non-Ranaldites you're a Ranaldite to tattle on his latest hist.

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There is no such core tenet. Another quote from the lexicanum: "Ranald is widely and openly worshipped".

 

[veekie]

Caldera's distinct from the Eastern Valley, it'd be a huge pain in the ass to seize that without potentially years of preparation, because holy shit it's a bad place to be caught in if you're not already in an overpowering position.

To even dream of making a play on the Caldera, we need Karagril, which is going to be a pain in the ass to take because it also sort of obligates us to depopulate Black Crag first unless we want to open up a new salient for the enemy. That doesn't allow us to win, it just lets us start by enveloping the Caldera from two sides and allowing us to call down artillery fire from any point in Eight Peaks--in theory.

From there, we have a choice to either depopulate the trolls in Kvinn-Wyr and then push through the southern salient to envelop that angle, or push for Karag Zilfin, which is probably going to be the Final Boss of Eight Peaks with all the warrens in there and the sheer size of the place--it isn't going down as easily as Lhune did now that the element of surprise is lost.

And all the while, we'll have the war in the depths devouring fighters like crazy. Not good times.

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By Caldera I mean ensuring no more random orc sallies are likely to work. Citadel does that. Its securem

Taking the Caldera is another matter entirely yeah.

There is no such core tenet. Another quote from the lexicanum: "Ranald is widely and openly worshipped".

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To be fair the feudal lords don't want him as Protector or Night Prowler.

And if they favor the Deceiver they are keeping that down low...

 

[DragonParadox]

Finding out that Black Orcs are not fully integrated into the greenskin pantheon/worship might have wide-ranging implication. For example, this might lead to religious schisms and them killing each other… kind of like what happened here.

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True, but whether it happens or not the dwarfs can't impact it in the slightest. It's not like they can inflitrate the orks and encourage the flames of Only Gork.

 

[LockedMind]

The Realm of Sorcery book said the minimum age to be a Journeyman was late twenties, but this is silly when apprenticeships starting at 10 isn't unknown, so I've ignored it.

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There is a very easy Doylist explanation to this passage in RoS. Starting career for wizards in RPG is Apprentice. Default power-level for the start of the campaign is "everyone is on their first career". Players should be able to
a) play wizards
b) play adults
c) not be exceptional in a bad way (i.e. being 25-30 where others usually achieve that level of prowess at 15)
simultaneously.
That leads to the ages described in RoS.

To avoid that nonsense they should have tossed out the notion of adventuring Apprentices (it is ridiculous anyway) and make Journeyman first PC wizard career (with apprentices being beyond the scope of the book).

 

[Alectai]

Beyond that, honestly, a 'Game Apprentice Wizard' is one that's on the cusp of Journeyman anyway, or htey wouldn't be let out on their own.

 

[Thor's Twin]

Possible Perspective: Panoramia

Panoramia stumbled back into her tent and collapsed onto the inviting bedroll that was waiting there. Her bones felt like lead, and she could feel the magical exhaustion like she had run around the Jade College for hours but in her soul. It had been a full night of magic, growing fields of Black Lotus to supply poison for the Rangers and then mustering with the Halflings at dawn to provide magical support in case they were about to be overrun. But she was never going to let her friends die and bleed if she could help it! Even if it meant going against the orders of Magister Weber. Panoramia felt a hysterical giggle escape her lips at that reminder. Making the decision to help and go against orders had been terrifying, but it was the right call. She helped, and none of her friends had died. And Magister Weber would never know! With all that magic swirling around in the air because of Kragg the Grimm, and wasn't that an utterly incredible display of magic, meant that the only way Magister Weber would know was if she saw the casting directly. And Panoramia had a perfect alibi, she was asleep like ordered! She just… just needed… yawn… needed to pretend to be well-rested tomorrow. And that was the last thought she had before waking up at the sound of the lunch bell.

*****

She still felt that dark undercurrent of exhaustion as she chatted with some halflings, but it was buried under the thrill of helping that morning's battle and the insightful discussion about soil quality, fertilizer, and crop rotation methods. The similarities between the rotation method she knew and the one that the Halflings used was striking, but most interesting was the differences between the two. Slight changes in timing and placement of the rotation could have measurable differences between crop yields, so was the system she had learned better or was the Halfling's system better? Or was it a matter of different soils did best with different rotations?

And then someone cleared their throat behind her. Turning around she saw Magister Weber standing there none the worse for wear from having entered, alone, an entire mountain of orcs looking at her expectantly. SHIT! Panoramia forced the panic down and brought up the usual cheer she felt. Magister Weber couldn't know, just… pretend everything is fine and nothing will happen.

Panoramia stepped up to Magister Weber and began nattering on about crop rotation differences between Halflings and the Jade College. It was really mindless talk that Magister Weber wouldn't likely be interested in, but would keep the conversation away from the battle earlier in the day.

"Sleep well?"

"Oh." Shit. Magister Weber knew. Panoramia didn't know how Magister Weber knew, but she knew. Lying would get nowhere, not with a Magister of the Grey Order. Time to pay the piper and try to explain herself out of this mess.

*****

Tears were brimming in her eyes as Panoramia fled back to the Halflings she had promised to help for the day. Thoughts swirling about the lecture she had received from Magister Mathilde. She had always disliked that question when she was an apprentice, getting hand cramps for three minutes seemed a little silly compared to what everyone else had done. Now though, she loathed the question. How could a little cramp compare to summoning an unstoppable demon that would hunt you through every single mirror? At the age of sixteen! She had always been warned about the dangers of miscasts and the horrors that could be spawned from them, but now… now it was so much more visceral. To hear that the Magister who had ripped the dark heart of Slyviana out as a journeywoman had miscast just this past month, and it was only because she always went to the thickest fighting before anyone else that nothing more than a Skaven was killed made it so much more real than the dry lessons at the College.

The Halflings she was working with noticed her mood, and while they were normally a friendly outgoing people, they didn't push. Maybe because they thought that she had been chewed out for disobeying orders, or they thought that good work in the fields always helped people recover from sour moods. But now, as she looked up from the dirt to see a smiling Halfling she couldn't help but envision what might have been. A massive maggot slowly consuming her friends and allies, and she could do nothing to stop it. Subjugating them to the risk that she would fumble a spell because she was exhausted. She didn't, couldn't, regret that she had chosen to be there. Chosen to support her friends so that there was a chance that fewer of them would die. But that was only because she was successful. Now… now she wasn't sure she would make that same choice if given a second chance.

A/N: I've always liked Panoramia, and I thought that the lecture given by Mathilde was fantastic. Here's a possible perspective into Panoramia before and after the lecture. I hope people enjoy!

 

[Alratan]

Because Kragg is a Master of his field, he may not have exactly correct information, but he'd definitely have a better idea of the underlying theory. And because like Mathilde's expertise in Arcane Grey lets her be a useful expert on Arcane in general, Kragg's expertise in Dwarven Theology makes him an useful expert in matters of Greenskin Theology, especially given the role Greenskin shamans have and the importance of smiting them properly.

Also because human priests tend to be pure Piety, no Learning zealots, while Kragg is involved in a highly pious AND intellectual craft.

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BoneyM told us when I suggested this during the last vote that Kragg would have serious issues with suggesting that the Ancestor Gods were analogous to Greenskin gods.

 

[Horium]

The way I see it, if taking the Citadel goes without issue, the next goals would be fortifying the Underway underneath the reclaimed territory, and thein either spring-cleaning in Kvynn-Wyr or taking a crack at Karagril.

Hm. Does anyone know what's up with Und Uzgar? That might come before these two objectives, depending on the situation.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

3) It is incredibly patronizing to treat someone close to fifty times her age as a child as someone who will throw a temper tantrum and/or kill the messenger of some news he dislikes.

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You're underestimating the fundamentally alien mindset of the Dawi here. Yes, it seems ridiculous from our point of view. Yes, they will be furious with us if we bring up the Dawi Zharr.

 

[Alectai]

The way I see it, if taking the Citadel goes without issue, the next goals would be fortifying the Underway underneath the reclaimed territory, and thein either spring-cleaning in Kvynn-Wyr or taking a crack at Karagril.

Hm. Does anyone know what's up with Und Uzgar? That might come before these two objectives, depending on the situation.

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We've already seized Und-Uzgar, the issue is excavating a road to it so we can skip a few steps in logistics.

 

[Neshuakadal]

Hm. Does anyone know what's up with Und Uzgar? That might come before these two objectives, depending on the situation.

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I mean, we own it. We cleared it out and miners are working to connect the two.

 

[Gul Damar]

You're underestimating the fundamentally alien mindset of the Dawi here. Yes, it seems ridiculous from our point of view. Yes, they will be furious with us if we bring up the Dawi Zharr.

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Propably. But as long we don't threaten to expose their existence to the world, I doubt it will go much further then that and a simple promise that we will keep it to ourselves and as a Grey Wizard we all know about keeping secrets should prevent it from escalating.

They're not thát alien, and trouble between the humans and dwarfs mostly comes from the former lacking to show respect rather then the latter being completly irrational.

 

[ctulhuslp]

If tomorrow brings another shift in goalposts, things could get trickier... even if the imminent arrival of reinforcements practically demands it.

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We can just cycle out the mercs who want their payday now and hire more, or propose them to leave for another set of payment, while making clear that this stage is over.

 

[primemountain]

You're underestimating the fundamentally alien mindset of the Dawi here. Yes, it seems ridiculous from our point of view. Yes, they will be furious with us if we bring up the Dawi Zharr.

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Sure, but there's another side to that coin. Mat is third in line for scope of dwarf friend among the Empire. And that was before the expedition. If she can't bring it up, damn near no one can. And its not like she's bringing it up on lark. Its part of a story of how a greenskin god got robbed, and the greenskins nearly had a religious disagreement and over the heresy of these Black Orcs.

 

[Neshuakadal]

Propably. But as long we don't threaten to expose their existence to the world, I doubt it will go much further then that and a simple promise that we will keep it to ourselves and as a Grey Wizard we all know about keeping secrets should prevent it from escalating.

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Or or.. now listen to this idea. We can keep it a secret now and make sure that it won't escalate. As a Grey wizard we know how to keep a secret after all.

 

[Ashmaker]

There isn't. This is the final day for the subject's debate. Mathidle's report to the Grey Order will communicate the maximum amount of useful information without endangering her own standing.

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So this vote ALSO determines how much we tell the Grey Order? Why drop that now, ages into the voting, instead of revealing it from the start?

 

[mc2rpg]

Actually, there's no real reason for the Expedition not to just say: "Ok, preliminary phase is completed, here is the agreed gold. We start the second phase next week. Who here is looking for more gold? There will be a bonus included".

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I think what really stops that from happening is that the mercenaries don't have anywhere to drink, whore, or otherwise spend their new cash. They are flush right now, why risk dying?

 

[Neshuakadal]

Sure, but there's another side to that coin. Mat is third in line for scope of dwarf friend among the Empire. And that was before the expedition. If she can't bring it up, damn near no one can. And its not like she's bringing it up on lark. Its part of a story of how a greenskin god got robbed, and the greenskins nearly had a religious disagreement and over the heresy of these Black Orcs.

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I mean just because we are a good dwarf friend doesn't mean we are dwarf. Perhaps the dwarfs just don't want this to be brought up, ever. Under any circumstance. A good friend would know what topics just shouldn't be brought up.

 

[Oshha]

A good friend would know what topics just shouldn't be brought up.

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So how does Mathilde know that this topic shouldn't be brought up then? I don't see how she could reach this conclusion without the meta-knowledge of the players.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Propably. But as long we don't threaten to expose their existence to the world, I doubt it will go much further then that and a simple promise that we will keep it to ourselves and as a Grey Wizard we all know about keeping secrets should prevent it from escalating.

They're not thát alien, and trouble between the humans and dwarfs mostly comes from the former lacking to show respect rather then the latter being completly irrational.

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Not worth the trouble IMO. The derived benefit they might feasibly gain isn't worth the loss of rep/favours here. They would look in serious askance at a dwarf who brougt up the subject, never mind a human.

Sure, but there's another side to that coin. Mat is third in line for scope of dwarf friend among the Empire. And that was before the expedition. If she can't bring it up, damn near no one can. And its not like she's bringing it up on lark. Its part of a story of how a greenskin god got robbed, and the greenskins nearly had a religious disagreement and over the heresy of these Black Orcs.

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Sure, you've hit upon the correct answer here: damn near no one can who isn't a dwarf. It's not reasonable, and it's not a subject about which they're really capable of being reasonable.

So this vote ALSO determines how much we tell the Grey Order? Why drop that now, ages into the voting, instead of revealing it from the start?

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No the QM was very clear: Mathilde will be sharing the same amount with the Grey Order regardless, "the maximum she can without endangering her own standing."

 

[DragonParadox]

I mean just because we are a good dwarf friend doesn't mean we are dwarf. Perhaps the dwarfs just don't want this to be brought up, ever. Under any circumstance. A good friend would know what topics just shouldn't be brought up.

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No perhaps about it, the dwarfs despise all mention of the Dawi Zhar with a fiery passion, because it is not just a remainder that they too can fall to Chaos, that they are not as far above 'manlings' in that regard as most everyone believes, it's also a reminder of their failures and in extremis even the failures of the Ancestor Gods towards those tho became Dawi Zhar.

 

[NuclearConsensus]

I haven't caught up with the discussion at all, given the pace it moves, so I'll just approval vote everything I want.

[X] Tell Belegar.
[X] Remain silent.

[X] Join the hunting with Sigwald Kriegersen
[X] Cook with Karak Izor
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann

[X] Being maudlin
[X] Telling war stories
[X] Gambling
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Target shooting
[X] Play with a demigryph

[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service

[X] Yes to Shenanigans

 

[primemountain]

So this vote ALSO determines how much we tell the Grey Order? Why drop that now, ages into the voting, instead of revealing it from the start?

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Come on now. This was obvious from the beginning. What we tell people is what we tell people. Of course what we tell some people will effect what we tell other people. That's just common sense. I've made the argument to that effect multiple times.

I mean just because we are a good dwarf friend doesn't mean we are dwarf. Perhaps the dwarfs just don't want this to be brought up, ever. Under any circumstance. A good friend would know what topics just shouldn't be brought up.

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For one: OOC argument. But I don't have a leg to stand on there so: I think "Angry God incoming" might trump your "Under Any circumstance". So might "So I'm going to go and tell all my people about this. You ok with that? For your secret shame to be shared with a bunch of manlings? What? It's a secret shame? I shouldn't? You don't say.