Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Jyn Ryvia]

It was more the tone, really; seeing as how this is a fantasy quest on an ostensibly science fiction themed web-forum anybody voting here is sort of a nerd by definition.

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:Shrugs: if someone has to go that direction in their argument and I don't, then really their just helping me.

P:s I'm more annoyed by the middle-class comment, I shovelled cow shit for my pocket money as a kid.

 

[Alratan]

I think saying this will hurt Empire/Dwarf relations is a bit much. They aren't declaring a grudge over us telling them this.

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They wouldn't declare a grudge. They might decide that human wizards are significantly more dangerous and less trustworthy than they realised, even to the point that they're an active threat to be around because of the risk of an evil god assuming direct control, and that in tuen implies that the Empire of which the wizards are a major institution is in turn much less reliable, as it might be influenced by wizards being glove puppeted by evil gods at an unknown frequency triggered by unknown combinations of events.

They might declare more of grudges on the Chaos Dwarves, which would be pretty awful for the dwarves, and although the High King could never admit it, would probably severely annoy him.

That's why this is just potential losses all the way down. Even if we somehow dodge both these bullets, there's still no upside to telling them.

 

[Tomcost]

@BoneyM , would it be possible for Mathilde to buy a Gyrocopter?

You know, there are even better ways of travelling than shadowhorse, because we can go above mountains!

 

[Kornet]

Her professional obligation is to the Empire and to the Grey College not to risk severely screwing up dwarf relations. What people are suggesting is literally the opposite of her job as a member of the diplomat college.

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But does she see it that way? With how the war councul is working, and the way Belegar treats her it's so very, very easy to slip back into a 'liege and his spymistress' kind of relationship.

A lot of voters do.

Do not mistake my post for advocating disclosure, I am merely refuting the point that it is widely out of character.

Personally, I don't have a strong opinion on the matter and will likely flip-flop a couple of times.

 

[Thor's Twin]

While I understand people's desire to give this information to King Belegar and Kragg, the feeling that this is important information that should be given to those who could best use it, I do not think it is the best course of action. We've already communicated the weakening of Mork, and that is the most tactically valuable information of the lot. It has wide-ranging implications, but those wide-ranging implications don't particularly concern us as much as the ability of any Shamans in the area might be slightly reduced.

If we disclose to King Belegar our possession by Mork, the part played by Ranald, and the Chaos Dwarves, what are they going to do about that information? What can they do about that information? They have much more pressing concerns with how this expedition is going that they don't need the information about Divine conflict between two gods who aren't even theirs. And the information regarding the Chaos Dwarves has no immediate impact on what is happening. It is just another grudge to add to a literal mountain of grudges against the Chaos Dwarves.

This information just does not seem to help the expedition in any way, and that is where our concern should be. Thinking about the long term ramifications of Ranald's actions and the creation of the Black Orcs is not really in Mathilde's wheelhouse right now, nor is it really in anyone's wheelhouse right now.

 

[Alratan]

But does she see it that way? With how the war councul is working, and the way Belegar treats her it's so very, very easy to slip back into a 'liege and his spymistress' kind of relationship.

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When did Mathilde tell Van Hal she was haunted by a daemon? And that was much, much of a smaller deal than this. She knew when to keep things secret, even from him when she had to.

 

[Boney]

@BoneyM , would it be possible for Mathilde to buy a Gyrocopter?

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After this Expedition, yes, but it would need to come with either a full-time employee or a lot of engineering lessons, and that'd eat into either time or money.

When did Mathilde tell Van Hal she was haunted by a daemon? And that was much, much of a smaller deal than this. She knew when to keep things secret, even from him when she had to.

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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!

As a Journeywoman, Grey Wizard Mathilde Weber is dropped into the deep end of intrigue and double-dealing after a surprise assignment to the necromancer-afflicted province of Stirland. Follow her trials, travails, feats and discoveries as she makes her way in the world and does her best to...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

 

[MooseHowl]

Aha. Finally found the quote I was hunting for.

You spent some more time with Van Hal in the coming days. His office here is far from the comfortable one back home, but there's a pair of chairs and a fire so it's not too bad. He's currently reading through your budget proposal, and the attached paperwork showing your current expenditures, completely free of embezzlement for the first time since you began; he looks at you wryly, and you return the look blankly, and he smiles.

"Look, I'll grant you another 50 for the Discretionary," he says, "that should cover you for a while longer. But this is supposed to be discretionary, for unexpected bits and pieces that pop up as you go along. It's not supposed to be for you to maintain an entire staff filed under miscellany." He holds up a hand to stall your coming objection. "Yes, they're important, I've no doubt. But if you keep scaling up, you can't count on Stirland to cover the cost - not when we've got so many other drains on our resources. Either find a way to make your network revenue-neutral or stop throwing money at everyone you want to tell you things. I hope patriotism is still legal tender for these purposes, but if not, I've always found a great deal of value in threats of violence."

"I'll find a way to make it work," you promise.

He nods "I've no doubt. What else do you have for me?" You hand him your proposal for the Autopsy Agency, and he sits back and reads through it. "Under the authority of the Colleges," he notes.

"Under the authority of my Master as a Magister of the Colleges; it'll pass to me once I graduate."

"Which means that it's not bound as tightly as I'd like to Stirland proper," he says with a frown. "Oh, it'll be fine for the foreseeable, but what happens after our time?"

You... hadn't actually thought that was a concern. "I... suppose it would either dissolve, or a new head would be appointed by the Grey Order," you say.

"If this is to happen at all I want it ironclad," he growls. "This organization is to be a partnership between the Grey Order and the Elector Count of Stirland. When we're both dust I don't want this turning into anonymous wizards using Stirland as a laboratory."

"I... can write something up to that effect," you say, more than a little confused.

"Okay. Good. Go on," he says, settling back down.

"Okay, uh, members would be drawn from surgeons and hunters as well as the Colleges, with the goal being to form teams that can locate, capture, and then research subjects. It's my opinion that a wizard being part of this would be vital, so they can identify the Dhar and counter any necromantic control."

But Van Hal is shaking his head again. "No. Any organization that requires a wizard to function, let alone wizards plural, is doomed. The supply of competent wizard back-up we can count on, not including yourself, is measured in man-hours," he pauses. "Wizard-hours? Anyway, it's not measured in actual full-time wizards assigned to this. I'm sorry Mathilde, but this plan is good on paper but sure to end up with either incompetent baby wizards getting good people killed or, if we restrict it to competent wizards, a bunch of hunters and surgeons sitting around wondering if they'll ever see a single wizard to fill in the trio. And this part?" He points. "I control it directly? Has something lead you to believe that an Elector-Count has nothing to keep them busy from day to day?" He rereads the entire the entire proposal as you sit there, feeling very small. "Unless you can make the current plan work without wizards, scrap the entire thing. Actually, if we're using regular surgeons for the actual examinations, cut out the Colleges entirely. And for Sigmar's sake decide whether it'll be under Gustav or Kasmir or Schultz or yourself or, in fact, literally anybody but me."

He subsides back into his chair, then sighs and pulls out a flask, offering it to you. You drink gratefully, and mutter an apology.

He shakes his head. "Look, I get it. In a perfect world this would be a fantastic way to expand our knowledge of the undead. But you and I both know that this is so terribly far from a perfect world, and we need to work with what we have. And what we have is barely-trained peasants." He waves an arm towards a window. "Look out there, the 2nd and 3rd. Ten thousand peasants with spears. Five thousand with swords. Five thousand with crossbows made of wood and scrap iron. One thousand horsemen with pistols. How many cannon? Ten. That's the kind of ratio we can sustain." He points at you. "You are our cannon. Now figure out how to make things work with thousands of peasants."

You take the proposal he passes back to you and leave the room, your mind starting to go to work.

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That right there is the example Mathilde should be following. Not just a breakdown of the problem, but ending on faith and encouragement that the problem can and will be solved. Mathilde did fine dissecting Panoramia's issue and suggested a solution, but the conversation felt to me like it ended too abruptly due to mutual discomfort. That is why following up on Pan is good, even just by relaxing and being around her.

Mathilde's former Master is good professional example to follow, but learning from Van Hal is better.

 

[Mopman43]

When did Mathilde tell Van Hal she was haunted by a daemon?

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Like, 3 years in? Maybe 2? Those are different matters, though.

 

[quichwe10]

[X] Remain silent.

[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija

[X] Gambling
[X] Play with a giant wolf
[X] Being maudlin
[X] Sparring

[X] Yes to Shenanigans

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I think it's safe to say that I spend more time monitoring the thread than most, so trust that when I call for an encore of a given debate, it's after I've tried and failed to find a satisfactory alternative.

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though as someone who's vote 'won' last time, I'm feeling a bit jibed about it.

tho, ya, the definition of bias there, to take with salt. but I think its a legitimate complaint

 

[Alratan]

Like, 3 years in? Maybe 2? Those are different matters, though.

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Yes. Two and a half years to tell a man she was somewhat falling for a much smaller scale, less important and less dangerous secret regarding her magic.

That's the precedent here. We've known Kragg the Grim for what, a few weeks? And Mathilde certainly doesn't have a crush on him.

 

[Kornet]

When did Mathilde tell Van Hal she was haunted by a daemon? And that was much, much of a smaller deal than this. She knew when to keep things secret, even from him when she had to.

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About a turn earlier than she seriously decided to do something about it, if I remember correctly?

She very much didn't know how to keep secrets from van Hal. It didn't start immediately, bit it wad in full effect by the time she became dame.

 

[Valarauko]

Her professional obligation is to the Empire and to the Grey College not to risk severely screwing up dwarf relations. What people are suggesting is literally the opposite of her job as a member of the diplomat college.

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But does she see it that way? With how the war councul is working, and the way Belegar treats her it's so very, very easy to slip back into a 'liege and his spymistress' kind of relationship.

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You know, this exchange crystallized something for me.

Since when did we think that the title of the quest was no longer applicable? It's called Divided Loyalties for a reason. Our divided loyalties to Order, Empire, God, Expedition, Friend, and Self are all being tested here.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

[X] Remain silent.


[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Valayan religious service

Changing my vote I was under the impression that we wouldn't reveal the stuff about the chaos dwarves.

 

[Guile]

What's particularly frustrating is that it's very unclear what benefit people think telling Belegar and Kragg that Mathilde can be used as a glove puppet by an evil god in an unknown but most certainly not empty set of circumstances will have?

Them knowing that the Chaos Dwarves created the Black Orcs is bad for them, as it hits right in one of the weakness of dwarf psychology that makes thema declining race. We want to reduce the number of grudges compelling the dwarves into commiting individual and species suicide, not give them another set that will risk compelling them to spend vast amounts of blood and treasury fighting yet another enemy they can never defeat.



There's zero evidence I can see of Kragg piercing anything whatsoever together. He knows Mathilde did something. He doesn't know what. We saw his perspective when she helped Ranald rob Mork blind..

Telling Kragg the Grim that Mathilde and potentially other Magisters can be used as glove puppets by evil gods in circumstances that we are unable to explain the limits of may not literally be the end of the world, but it does mean that it would be sensible for the dwarves never to trust or work closely with a Magister again, as they'll never know if and when an evil god might suddenly assume direct control of the Magister with disastrous results for the dwarves. It also means that the Empire as a whole is potentially compromised as one of its most powerful institutions is a giant disaster in the making. It makes Magisters look like superstitious people's worst fears of them. This is also the type of thing that the dwarves might feel compelled to share with their very long term allies in the Cult of Sigmar, which is it's own flavour of disaster, as they'd use it to seriously beat up the Colleges. And that would at the least then come back on Mathilde.

This wouldn't just be a disaster for Mathilde, it would be a disaster for the Empire and for Karaz Ankor.

You're risking an appalling bad result, and for pretty much no upside whatsoever. You never talk about being possessed by an evil god in Warhammer unless you know for absolute certain that the people you tell are strongly incentivised to hear it the right way and keep it secret. Even the Grey College might not be appropriate to tell.

Also, remember that Mathilde has a pretty shit Diplomacy score, so could easily flunk a roll on this.

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Shame we don't have the right Coin face up, or we could just make up something convenient that doesn't involve Mork finger puppets and be instantly believed.

Well, hopefully the vote to tell them focuses much more on the 'punted that shit up to my god, who swindled Mork out of his lunch money like a boss and is now swole like a Longbeard' than the finger puppet thing. We could even, like, not mention that part, just say Ranald got the energy from the broken Idol.

 

[Alratan]

You know, this exchange crystallized something for me.

Since when did we think that the title of the quest was no longer applicable? It's called Divided Loyalties for a reason. Our divided loyalties to Order, Empire, God, Expedition, Friend, and Self are all being tested here.

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The advantage with this one is that it's in the dwarves best interests not to know about the origin of the black orcs. If you have a friend that's an alcoholic, you don't press a bottle of vodka into their hands. It's not disloyal to keep it from them. Any Grudges are more destructive them that for the dwarves.

 

[Alectai]

Is it? We are talking about a girl who reported to her superior that she is blackmailed by parties unknown and has been swindling the said superior for years.

For all her love of secrets and secrecy, she takes her professional obligations very fucking seriously and has been known, more than once, to report to her count things which could very well harm her. Giving that Belegar is currently being neatly slotted into the same role in her mind, i can actually see her once again adopting the full transparency policy.

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Except she didn't?

She didn't tell him any of that, he found out on his own. The only thing we mentioned that was questionable was the Wisdom's Asp and that was because she was working at getting rid of it by then.

 

[Valarauko]

Precisely. And as you said, Need To Know is what the Grey Order does.

 

[zxzx24]

[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[X] Gambling
[X] Put on a magic display (Petty and Lesser only)
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Yes to Shenanigans

 

[Zaratustra]

Well, hopefully the vote to tell them focuses much more on the 'punted that shit up to my god, who swindled Mork out of his lunch money like a boss and is now swole like a Longbeard' than the finger puppet thing. We could even, like, not mention that part, just say Ranald got the energy from the broken Idol.

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Sadly that is not an option.

Mathilde is either coming clean or she isn't. Doesn't make sense to pick and choose at the point where she's telling the Dwarves about her Mork possession.

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We are past the point we can be carefull with words, either we say no more or we say everything, and we realy shouldn't say everything.

 

[thisisinsane]

[X] Remain silent.

[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[x] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[x] Join the hunting with Ulthar
[x] Join the hunting with Sigwald Kriegersen
[x] Join the hunting with Ruprecht Wulfhart

[x] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[x] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann

[X] Drinking games
[X] Gambling
[X] Play with a giant wolf

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

[X] Remain silent.


[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Valayan religious service

Changing my vote I was under the impression that we wouldn't reveal the stuff about the chaos dwarves.

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Oh? What is it about the Chaos Dwarves that causes you to change?

 

[Ziodyne]

[x] Remain silent.

[x] Join the hunting with Ulthar
[x] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[x] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Durin

[x] Gambling
[x] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[x] Play with a giant wolf
[x] Play with a demigryph

[x] Yes to Shenanigans

 

[natruska]

All of the fragments are canon, the only part that's mine is that 'Zhufokri' means wizard instead of... I guess 'water park engineer'.

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...

...

heh. alright.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Within the borders of the Empire of Man, the Elector Counts are among the highest of nobility, second only to the Emperor and - arguably, very arguably - the High Priests. Their word is all but law over the countless thousands of souls within their province.

You are not an Elector Count. But you are the next best thing.

You have secured a position serving a newly-arisen Elector Count, an instrument for their will in a very specific domain. But also an instrument for your own will; because like all people, you have your own ambitions. The way you present information, the solutions you present, the options you put towards them and how you explain them; all of these will allow you a great deal of leeway in how you go about your business, and allowing you to pursue your own private goals.

The first question is: in what province have you come to power in? Noble Reikland, advanced Wissenland, vast Talabecland, mighty Middenland, drunken Ostland... you do not have the fortune to serve in any of these. Your province is somewhat... humbler.

[O] TODDY INTERRUPT

Of course, you would never say that to your liege. Not in his most overbearing presence.

"KHAZRAK? KHAZRAK FUCKIN' ONE-EYE?"

The 'esteemed' men and women gathered around the conference table are still staring slack-jawed at the hole in the wall. Boris is already a large man. Clad in plate and blessed with a running start, charging through three walls was a breeze for the Elector Count. The unfortunate Public Relations woman who'd called this pre-meeting meeting brushes pulverized stone off her dress while the twiggy academic type next to you stares at the shard of granite impaled in his armrest. PR eyes the Protector of the Drakwald coldly.

"Kazador, your grace. He was spotted in Tilea, down at the Orlandi Park. We hid the greenskin heads from the journalists and placed him under a gag order. We're up eight points with dwarfs. Dwarves? Dwarfs."

Todbringer nods frantically, the clanking drowning out nearly all the poor woman's words. "TILEA, YOU SAY? I'LL 'AVE 'IM." His clap on her shoulder elicits a sickening cracking sound, and then he's gone. Through the door this time. The plume of his helmet dislodges two more stone blocks that spray the room with shrapnel as they land. Miraculously, nobody's harmed. You thank Sigmar for his protection. Then, as an afterthought, you pray for whoever Toddy catches in the hallway.

The PR woman resets her shoulder and closes out the report with a whimper. It's hard to have all your hard work trumped by the Beloved of Ulric. You understand. And then all eyes are on you to hear about the location scouting. Six pairs. Wait, the nerd passed out so…no, still six. A cook's leaning through the wall to eavesdrop.

Wait. The kitchen's four over, isn't it? Boris must be getting stronger. Good on 'im.

[] TODDY CRUISES: You found an interesting pitch on your desk this week from your friends over the sea. Seems they'd like a steadier stream of income from their merchant fleet. Cruise ships would open a new market full of growth opportunities without large capital investments or personal risk for the Boris Todbringer Company. Crews are provided, but the need to pay for animatronics and entertainment will cut into profits. It shouldn't be hard to attract customers, though: Black Arks are notoriously unsinkable fun for the whole family.

[] THE UNDERFUNPIRE: Up north you swindled some beast men out of prime real estate. If only they'd known they were dealing with the Toddy Company, they'dve asked for twenty times as many shiny stones. Transport will be an issue but you can retain some dwarf fliers or a few expendable wizards from the Colleges. And Toddyland will turn even the most uninhabitable desert wasteland into a glorious metropolis with celebrities and terrible traffic. Plus, you're sure those weird…things…you found in the vats will make valuable (low-cost) employees! The mutations will only add to the Toddy Magic.

[] TAPPING THE LIZARD TREE: Everyone knows the overseas market is where it all goes down. Animated features and the Toddy Channel have already penetrated into Lustrian culture, but the rapidly growing Lizard middle-class hasn't yet been tapped. Set up an overseas park in one of those pyramids. Don't worry about those 'local cultural' complaints, you've been watering the movies down for decades in preparation for this. You won't even have to design that many new rides, although you'll inevitably make a few really cool ones so the diehard fans have to see all the parks. Dinosaurs? No one's impressed by a dinosaur anymore.

challenge accepted and failed