Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
ctulhuslp said:
I doubt that Mathilde going "It was beyond me so instead of being arrogant derp I let god handle god power levels" would actually be viewed as a bad thing.
And that very much was a huge part of rationale, remember? I think Kragg can respect or at least understand trusting god more than fickle wizard bullshit. It's not like he is atheist or whatever, you know?
"Let gods help me with god bullshit" is absolutely reasonable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Indeed it was my own reasoning. However, in order let the god help we had to improvise without any priestly lore or ordained authority to call on him. If Ranald had not responded we'd have squandered our chance to attempt a grounding. If we'd miscast our freeform theurgy in that environment it would likely have been cataclysmic. The god we called then predictably increased the risk level by stealing still more energy from Mork. "What if Mork had eaten your precious god of sneaks, Umgi? What then?"

Fair or not, I can only see someone like Kragg trusting us less after such a revelation.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
[X] Cook with Clan Angrund
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Play with a giant wolf
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
Last edited:
I mean, in the absolute best case scenario, they say, "hm, well, glad you handled that well. Those bastard grobi gods deserve summit of what they gave to everyone else" then wander off to write another bigass grudge that will haunt their psyche and distract them.

No immediately relevant information is gained.
 
Andres110 said:
Because Belegar's a bro and you don't manipulate your bros. They're not some mark, they're your bros.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So you think it's smart to tell him, someone whose culture has no word for mercy or collateral damage, you got possessed (in a universe that has a real fear about possession) by the god of their ancient enemy.

see, this is why I'm saying that when It comes to dwarfs SV has a Very Twisted view on of what Warhammer Dwarfs are about and I can't wait for when BoneyM smacks the threads faces with their ignorance.

and If you tell Kragg, Kragg is going smack you out of the mountains as the best outcome.

 
Alectai said:
It's literal cruelty. For all that we get on reasonably well with them, they don't have the same mindset. Them knowing "The fucking Dawi-Zharr are behind the Black Orcs" doesn't magically give them the ability to project power across the Dark Lands to fight a superpower, it just gives them one more super grudge they can't avenge when they've got too many as it is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Or worse, they'll try to avenge, and make their grudge death spiral worse.

There's pretty much no way this os a good idea. There are only potential downsides and no real potential upsides. It's a pure expected loss with the best we can do is lose nothing and the distribution of events being over different degrees of badness, from pretty bad to utterly catastrophic.

And the risk is it will probably largely be decided by Mathilde's measly Diplomacy score.

It's annoying that we voted not to tell them the full story in the last update, and now people are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. All we have to do is sit down and shut up.
 
Last edited:
Alratan said:
The fact that something happens once demonstrates that it's possible. There is no evidence any no way of proving that this is the only situation in which this is happening. Gods can get pissed off and motivated to intervene in all sorts of things. The Horned Rat probably gets pissed off about the dwarves continued existence every day. The circumstances are not explicable and not knowable because all we now know is that something is possible. That's the only thing that a sample size of one can demonstrate. It can give no other information on the limits of the phenomena.

Even if the risk of them taking it this way is small, which we've no reason to believe, as there's no benefit to telling them, only other potential costs, such as exacerbating their grudge death spiral, there's simply no good justification for this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Simple, if you are worried about the Horned Rat doing something through Mathilde then we can get a rough breakdown of what likely needs to occur.

She needs to be acting within the Horned Rat's themes. She needs to be in a holy place of him. And she needs to be the best agent through which for him to enact his will. That's a pretty specific thing that basically requires you don't send Mathilde on top of a Screaming Bell.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
This has no relevance to the mission. If anything, this knowledge hurts the mission by making Kragg and Belegar have other concerns on their mind when the most important thing is the liberation of Karak Eight Peaks. And no one can get fixated like a Dwarf.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Mork pitching a bitchfit has already impacted the mission, and while both Orks and their gods are notoriously unpredictable it's significantly more likely that they will hold a grudge over Ranald stealing some of their power than if they had been directly weakened as a result of careless usage of power which was the assumption Kragg floated as being possible/likely.

Sharing more general information about the divine politics and plans of the Chaos and Orkish gods isn't particularly relevant to the mission to retake Karak Eight Peaks, but it is very much relevant information for the general forces of sanity, and right now that information dies with Mathilde if the worst occurs.
 
Honestly, I think its our obligation to tell them. If we don't tell them, we take away their own prerogative to do whatever they want with the information. It is also a display of trust, and may actually sour relations if we don't tell them, as it proves Kragg's stereotype of 'untrustworthy umgi.' Plus, if there's anybody who can do something with the information it's Kragg the motherfucking Grimm.
 
[X] Remain silent.
[X] Cook with Clan Angrund
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Help move the Karag Nar hoard
[X] Yes to Shenanigans

Don't pay too much attention to my vote on the "tell or don't tell." I'll probably seesaw back and forth a half-dozen times before the vote is called.

Skaroki seemed friendly with us last post, so let's share some times with him. Also, learning how to actually cook something might be useful as well as fun.

Gambling and holding religious service for Ranald seems appropriate considering what he just did, and we want to make sure nothing funny happens with the hoard.

And I'm always up for inflicting further misery on the Greenskins.
 
Algalon said:
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

Kragg seems to have ideas. Better to clue him in. He might reach conclusions or have ideas that Mathilde lacks the knowledge to infer. Some people expect Kragg to go crazy about "orcish corruption" or something. I don't. He isn't stupid. It something that was likely never heard off, so its good info. He is also in front of her, and ought to be able to get a good reading of her. He was able to feel the Waagh build-up in both the Citadel and Karag Nar. If there was any remnant inside Mathilde's soul, he should be able to notice it. On the surface she looks perfectly fine, and we know ooc that she's fine inside as well, so nothing to worry.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He is not a logical person. Moreover, he has already spoken up on the matter, which he wouldn't if he didn't think he was about to state something worth his time.
 
BoneyM said:
To Dwarves, Apprentice-Journeyman-Master is one of the cornerstones of their society, so Master carries real weight to them. Normally, Dwarves would not grant a human's Mastery equivalence to a Dwarvern Mastery until the person had proven themselves, but Dwarves have no equivalent to wizards so they get a pass - but they would almost always specify it as them being a Master Wizard or a Zhufokrul or a Mhornokrul or similar. Technically, the title here is your due, but that he is granting it here instead of the full job description is an expression of trust - it implies that others do not need to be warned of you, and that your Mastery is at the level of Dwarven mastery, rather than mere human mastery.

Ok: cunning or skillful.
-i: Person/race/profession
-ul: Art/master of
Okri: Crafter
Okrul: Master Crafter

Zhuf: Torrent/waterfall/rapids
Zhufokri: Wizard, literally 'torrent crafter'
Zhufokrul: Master Wizard
Zhufi: Pejorative for wizard - implies magic defines them, rather than being under their control.

Mhornokri: Grey Wizard, literally 'shadow crafter'
Mhornokrul: Grey Magister.
Gorzhufokri: Amber Wizard, literally 'beast torrent crafter'. 'Zhuf' is included because 'Gorokri' already has the meaning of 'animal trainer'.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I love the fact that there is enough Dwarf grammar for you to be able to do this. Unless this is unofficial?

[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
 
[X] Remain silent.
-Grey Wizard of Ranald who Couldn't Spit It Out for the one guy she was interested in. Unless Mathilde plans on giving Kazrina competition, she should keep her mouth shut.
[X] Join the hunting with Codrin
-Seems like an opportunity to gather intel on his men, see if any latent magical potential manifested.
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann
-As others have said, we want to keep an eye on this one.
[X] Telling war stories
-This and wolf time are in competition with openly preaching for Ranald.
[X] Play with a giant wolf
-Talking the talk isn't walking the walk when it comes to Ranald, though.
[X] Gambling
-Walk the walk.
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
-Has anyone voted No on this?
 
Last edited:
Jyn Ryvia said:
So you think it's smart to tell him, someone whose culture has no word for mercy or collateral damage, you got possessed (in a universe that has a real fear about possession) by the god of their ancient enemy.

see, this is why I'm saying that when It comes to dwarfs SV has a Very Twisted view on of what Warhammer Dwarfs are about and I can't wait for when BoneyM smacks the threads faces with their ignorance.

and If you tell Kragg, Kragg is going smack you out of the mountains as the best outcome.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm saying that Belegar is our friend, and that that actually matters. He's not some political actor, or the dwarfs as a whole, he's the guy who's got our back, just as we've got his. I'm not going into this with the mindset of some middle class forum nerd thinking of consequences and rationalisations RATIONALLY and LOGICALLY with FACTS, but as a normal person who's trusting someone with something dear.
 
Karugus said:
Simple, if you are worried about the Horned Rat doing something through Mathilde then we can get a rough breakdown of what likely needs to occur.

She needs to be acting within the Horned Rat's themes. She needs to be in a holy place of him. And she needs to be the best agent through which for him to enact his will. That's a pretty specific thing that basically requires you don't send Mathilde on top of a Screaming Bell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We don't know she needs to be any of that for sure. We don't know the limits of gods' ability to possess mortals. Mathilde certainly doesn't know either. You assert, for example, that she has to be the best agent to enact his will. What does that even mean as a useful limitation?

Even if you're right, let's say Mathilde breaks into a skaven warren and tries to assassinate a Grey Seer, one of the Horned Rat's Chosen, where they live. Clandestine murder is fully within the Horned Rat's themes, a Grey Seer's dwelling would be a temple, and we'd be the best agent he could possesses to stop the assassination - and then tell the Grey Seer everything we knew about the dwarven plans, resources, and positions. Of course that would be bullshit for BoneyM to do OOC, so he wouldn't, but how would the dwarves know that couldn't happen? Even worse with the Chaos Gods, given how broad their themes are.
 
Last edited:
@BoneyM I have to say....

I don't think it's very fair of you to have a second "tell them or not" vote. We already voted on this, had an extensive discussion where pros and cons were debated, and the votes decided how much Mathilde should share. And then you're giving us a second bite at the apple because... why? I could see if if some new information had been revealed that made it make sense to reconsider, but the only new information I see is Kragg looking a little suspicious.

Why exactly is this worth a "but are you sure" vote when so many other decisions don't get second-guessed?
 
Andres110 said:
I'm saying that Belegar is our friend, and that that actually matters. He's not some political actor, or the dwarfs as a whole, he's the guy who's got our back, just as we've got his. I'm not going into this with the mindset of some middle class forum nerd, but as a normal person who's trusting someone with something dear.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

He's also not human, and doesn't think like a human. He comes from a race that's literally killing itself in a grudge death spiral, and even though they recognise it, they can't stop it. You're hurting him and all his kind by telling him this, as it gives them another massive grudge they'll feel compelled to break themselves to avenge, generating more grudges in the problem and making the whole problem worse.

Mathilde is at least tangentially aware of this, given what she knows about Slayers, Oaths and Grudges.
 
Last edited:
Briefvoice said:
@BoneyM I have to say....

I don't think it's very fair of you to have a second "tell them or not" vote. We already voted on this, had an extensive discussion where pros and cons were debated, and the votes decided how much Mathilde should share. And then you're giving us a second bite at the apple because... why? I could see if if some new information had been revealed that made it make sense to reconsider, but the only new information I see is Kragg looking a little suspicious.

Why exactly is this worth a "but are you sure" vote when so many other decisions don't get second-guessed?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
People wanted the option of only telling Belegar (and maybe Kragg) instead of the whole council.
 
Briefvoice said:
@BoneyM I have to say....

I don't think it's very fair of you to have a second "tell them or not" vote. We already voted on this, had an extensive discussion where pros and cons were debated, and the votes decided how much Mathilde should share. And then you're giving us a second bite at the apple because... why? I could see if if some new information had been revealed that made it make sense to reconsider, but the only new information I see is Kragg looking a little suspicious.

Why exactly is this worth a "but are you sure" vote when so many other decisions don't get second-guessed?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If I were to bet? Mathilde saw that she didn't get burned and is going for another bite at the apple, and the idea of separating information was a fair one but came too late to matter.

But yeah, it's causing a relitigation--doubly so because we didn't get burned too bad for publically saying what we did, which are making people underestimate the costs of full disclosure, judging by the massive dismissal of the very real risks being brought up.
 
Briefvoice said:
@BoneyM I have to say....

I don't think it's very fair of you to have a second "tell them or not" vote. We already voted on this, had an extensive discussion where pros and cons were debated, and the votes decided how much Mathilde should share. And then you're giving us a second bite at the apple because... why? I could see if if some new information had been revealed that made it make sense to reconsider, but the only new information I see is Kragg looking a little suspicious.

Why exactly is this worth a "but are you sure" vote when so many other decisions don't get second-guessed?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Would it have been fairer to have not had this once and for all vote and leave the matter in limbo forever, with people debating a write-in for the remainder of this arc? Would it have been fairer to have the vote to tell everyone present at the council permanently bind Mathilde to silence?
 
I'm really unsure about the disclosure vote. Both sides have good points, though ultimately its not a big deal for me.
Ehh, let sleeping dogs lie.
[X] Remain silent.

As for the rest... Character interactions are a strong suite of Bony as a writer and they're a joy to behold. That lens colors my vote.


[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
Panoramia seems like a fascinatingly sheltered person, at least for a mage capable of killing a man with a twitch of her fingers. I'd like to learn more about her. The Halflings are icing on the cake, as we haven't really engaged much with them and they really pulled their weight in the battle. On a slightly more utilitarian approach, it can't hurt to have an in to one of the future factions that will permanently reside in K8P.

[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
Skaroki is an interesting character that seems to just 'fit' well with Mathilde, for reasons I can't articulate. The thought of the both of them absconding with a keg of ale for a spot of good old fashioned noon drinking strikes a bone within me. Besides, I just love how this vote is worded.


[X] Join the hunting with Ruprecht Wulfhart
The image of the Secret Agent sent to keep me in line Mathilde having a good old time riding with Ruptrcht while he sweats bullets trying to figure out her angle is just too good to pass up.

And now for the feast!

[X] Drinking
Does this really need a vote?

[X] Being maudlin
Extremely rare seeing Mathilde like this. I'm very intrigued what flavor it will take, considering her growth during the past months, and how her company will react. Whatever it is, Bony is sure to make it good. It's also good for the soul to cry on some stout Dwarven shoulders once every couple of years or so.

[X] Telling war stories
A time honored favorite of post-battle feasts throughout history. Get a circle of Stirlanders, grumbling Greybeards, the occasional halfling Warden, a Dawi artillerist with that one tale, and get those outrageous stories going! Might even make a few new friends!

[X] Yes to Shenanigans

Oh yes.
 
Last edited:
Andres110 said:
Sounds like you're trying to manipulate them to me, keeping information from them so they do what you think is best (because we obviously know best and they can't be trusted to make informed decisions). However you might think friends should act like to each other, that is not how friends should act like to each other.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Also, by that logic, everyone on a quest is trying to manipulate each other. Not wrong, but not exactly a reasonable thing to be influenced.
 
BoneyM said:
Would it have been fairer to have not had this once and for all vote and leave the matter in limbo forever, with people debating a write-in for the remainder of this arc? Would it have been fairer to have the vote to tell everyone present at the council permanently bind Mathilde to silence?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I dunno. Maybe you have a point with the above, but it still does feel like relitigating an issue and that's always frustrating. Maybe there was no fully satisfying way to do this.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top