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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
I see no reason for continuing to engage with you if this is how you like to speak to people. Have a good day.
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By my reckoning you never actually started engaging. That's my point, you never learned or responded to my argument, you just skipped to accusing me of wanting a slave.
What do you think the thread will vote for when we have her bound to our soul?
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And also at minimum a majority of the thread, since that's how voting works.

You haven't actually taken that accusation back, by the way.
 
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Honestly, I'm pretty amazed at all the morality debates that have been sparked by the idea of trying to bind someone that we are not even theoretically capable of binding. Drycha is bound to Athel Loren, she's not alone like Apparitions are, if we tried to take her an entire forest full of tree spirits would pull back on her soul from their end. Judging by the fact that Ariel is not allowed to kill tree spirits no matter how badly she might want to by her pact with the forest, she might be compelled to help them pull.

It'd really be more like trying to bind a daemon than anything. And that's before we get into how we'd be trying to bind her with Ulgu, which also happens to be her favored wind. I'd fully expect that to go about as badly as trying to do it to an Apparition that eats Ulgu.
 
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K von Carstein said:
I don't have the reference 😁 I was referring to the webnovel « A Practical Guide to Evil », where « lakeomancy » is regularly used. And the dropping mountain part is done by Wekesa the Warlock, Sovereign of the Red Skies.
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I've been meaning to read that; I might finally get around to it, with that kind of inspiration!

I was referencing the Weaver Option, a Worm/40k crossover that... Honestly, it's really quite over the top (memetic badass Skitter as the MC, with all of the luck - good and bad), but it also has a bunch of other parahumans dropped in as well.
Including Vista, promoted to run the Arbites, who literally uses a mountain to crush a fortress which has been taken over by rioting prisoners on a Penal World.
 
Rafin said:
What kind of magic did the Fire Spire mages practice? Wind magic? All eight winds? Or something else?
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They didn't have a single doctrine, it was a place that magic-users from across the continent came to to practice their own individual arts.

Rafin said:
Also, I still don't quite get how a polity that was so ravaged by the last Great War, that doesn't have the best weather conditions for crop growing and that was lead by corrupt royalty for most of the time since said war still manages to defend its borders so much better than the empire, to the point of only having minimal Greenskin and Beastman and Ghoul presence within its forests.
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Different military doctrines and priorities and terrain. The Empire has a feudal power structure, and military might is concentrated in professional mostly-infantry armies that are mobilized to react to major threats and the rest of the time faith is placed in the defensive measures of walled towns and castles. Kislev is massively decentralized with practically no professional military, so military might is completely distributed. Each population centre has their own rota of extremely good cavalry, and they proactively use it to wipe out any threats in their corner of Kislev, both out of religious obligation and because they usually don't have nearby castles or walled towns to run to if any of those threats hit critical mass. And Kislev is practically all steppe which is a lot easier to keep clear of enemies than somewhere all forest.

Rafin said:
What category would the Woodsmen fall under? Are they actually also dismounted cavalry or do they just not quite count as military at all, despite their apparent skill against Dryads?
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They count as civilians. It is literally illegal for any male in Kislev to not own and regularly practice with a weapon.

mathymancer said:
@Boney, there is no mention of the spellcaster trio in the update. Is that because Mathilde is too busy to notice them, or did the forest rotas get them?
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Mathilde only noticed the parts of battle immediately applicable to what she was doing.

Amantalado said:
@Boney
Since I have serious doubt bind is ever going to win or even work, can I get a brief answer to a hypothetical about it?

In the alternate timeline where Mathilde successfully, completely, and safely succeeded in binding Drycha, what does her place on the world stage look like? Is she a legendary world-renowned figure? Is she auto-winning the title of Supreme Matriarch of the Colleges? Does she achieve nascent demi-god status? Is she shaking hands and exchanging fist bumps with the likes of Teclis?
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Try it and find out.

Swantree said:
They made Dragon Emperors literal dragons? Dragon Emperors are a thing at least in media so I thought they were human.
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Until Total Warhammer 3, not much canon material existed for Cathay and a lot of it was ambiguous, including whether Dragon Emperor was a title or a literal description. I went with it being a literal Dragon for quest canon, and then TW3 came out and confirmed that to be the case.

Rafin said:
Did Kattarin spread the gift/curse of vampirism around at all? Vlad von Carstein seems to have infected a majority of his noble vassals in relatively little time. And the Tsarevich Pavel society seems to have been based in the fear of a whole bunch of noble heirs worrying that they would never inherit. That makes me think that she was at least starting to curate an inner circle of Vampire nobility. The wiki only says that the Boyars cared "that having an immortal ruling them meant nobody else would ever rise to the top, and they would be reduced to squabbling amongst themselves for greater shares of power", which could be interpreted as pertaining only to Kattarin herself. But that doesn't make much sense to me since the vast majority of Boyars never get the chance to take her place on the throne and "squabbling amongst themselves for greater shares of power" is the exact state they are always in, whether the Tzar is a title handed down along a line of family members or held by a single person in perpetuity.

Now I imagine a conspiracy of "young noble scions", many of them 60+ years old, all massacring their own parents in their shared family homes within a couple of days before any of them could communicate with each other and be on guard from their own kids. And that then becomes the new ruling class, with all the trauma and self-justification that it implies.
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That is suspected to be the case, as that period of history seemed to have a lot of long-lived Boyars and Druzhinas. But Kislev is touchy about the topic and seems to have taken care of it so nobody pries too much.

StormySky said:
Wait, shouldn't this title be underlined since it's a full book rather than a paper?
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It should, fixed.
 
Lord Sia said:
I was referencing the Weaver Option, a Worm/40k crossover that... Honestly, it's really quite over the top (memetic badass Skitter as the MC, with all of the luck - good and bad), but it also has a bunch of other parahumans dropped in as well.
Including Vista, promoted to run the Arbites, who literally uses a mountain to crush a fortress which has been taken over by rioting prisoners on a Penal World.
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I read the beginning of the Weaver Option till a bit after the moment the Orks attacked that necron base. At first it was pretty good, but after compragh I began to find Skitter to be too Mary-Suish for my tastes.
Lord Sia said:
I've been meaning to read that; I might finally get around to it, with that kind of inspiration!
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It recently finished 😩 You should give it a try🙂
 
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K von Carstein said:
I don't have the reference 😁 I was referring to the webnovel « A Practical Guide to Evil », where « lakeomancy » is regularly used. And the dropping mountain part is done by Wekesa the Warlock, Sovereign of the Red Skies.
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Lord Sia said:
I've been meaning to read that; I might finally get around to it, with that kind of inspiration!

I was referencing the Weaver Option, a Worm/40k crossover that... Honestly, it's really quite over the top (memetic badass Skitter as the MC, with all of the luck - good and bad), but it also has a bunch of other parahumans dropped in as well.
Including Vista, promoted to run the Arbites, who literally uses a mountain to crush a fortress which has been taken over by rioting prisoners on a Penal World.
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When in Doubt, Blame the Eldar:

"And then he threw a moon at it!"
 
Sinsystems said:
Random question @Boney assuming the Manticore is intact what are the odds of Boris having it stuffed and turned into a trophy for himself?
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I am guessing it would depend on how much spare logistics space they have for the return trip.


This battle is likely to produce many trophies though. Most will go to the local forces that don't have to carry it far. Considering the marshal obligation every Kislev man faces having some visible battle trophies around the house is likely very useful.
 
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Sinsystems said:
Random question @Boney assuming the Manticore is intact what are the odds of Boris having it stuffed and turned into a trophy for himself?
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Actually... do we know if there is any part of that thing that could be useful for enchantments? I know it is a creature of capital C Chaos but on the other hand we did see a literal partial herdstone put to good use. I am thinking Manticore bits might be good if we want to windherd with Ghur, though I cannot think of anything that would be really all that pressing, just an idle thought for what we might want to look into at the end of the battle.
 
DragonParadox said:
Actually... do we know if there is any part of that thing that could be useful for enchantments? I know it is a creature of capital C Chaos but on the other hand we did see a literal partial herdstone put to good use. I am thinking Manticore bits might be good if we want to windherd with Ghur, though I cannot think of anything that would be really all that pressing, just an idle thought for what we might want to look into at the end of the battle.
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Page 123 of the 2E Core Rulebook for WFRP has a poison named Manticore Spoor:

"Manticore Spoor (Average): Harvested from Manticore dung, this poison is lethal, but has soporific side-effects. The first hit made by a weapon smeared with Manticore spoor that also deals damage, requires the victim to succeed a Challenging (–10%) Will Power Test or fall asleep. If the victim fails this test, not only does he slip into a dreamless slumber, he must also succeed a Hard (–20%) Toughness Test. If he fails this test too, he dies."

Manticores have all sorts of interesting anatomical oddities. Warriors of Chaos 8th Edition page 29 says that "no two Manticores are alike. Some have manes of writhing serpents, some have iron hard scales, and many have spiked tails containing a poison capable of boiling a man's blood inside their body". There are a few different upgrade options you can take for them despending on if you're playing Chaos or Dark Elves. There's also a mention in End Times of Manticores having multiple hearts. There's a lot going on there.

I have to say though, of all the poison ingredients to give Panoramia, Manticore dung would have to be one of the ones I'd be less enthusiastic about. "Hey, we've been dating for three years, so I thought I'd bring a present. I gathered this poisonous dung for you to concoct something from if you want. Have fun."
 
Oh! I have an idea for aftermath!

If we can get a confirmed kill on Drycha, we want to use it as a recruiting device, right?

So for the Kislevites we want to do something flashy - we've been MIA all battle from their perspective, what with invisibility. So we should use dragonflask- big, not!Ice magic to put us in the tales told. We can't rely on ice witches for spreading rumors, after all. That gets us public approval, which gives the ice witches political cover to deepen their alliance with us.

But! We can do more.

If we take the remains of Drycha to Athel Loren after learning the backstory from Laurelorn, we could ask a boon in return: that the elves aid the Brettonians against the chaos orcs. The elves, with the need for some of their garrison forces lessened in the near future and another enemy growing near their borders, are incentivized to say yes.

...depending on how much they associate us with Karak Norn.

Bringing in the elves to relive pressure on the the Brettonians with the orcs is us demonstratably following up on our pledge to do what we can to help, in the face of distance and light connections. If they win as part of an alliance we brokered, I bet they can shake a damsel lose to work with us.
 
Sinsystems said:
Random question @Boney assuming the Manticore is intact what are the odds of Boris having it stuffed and turned into a trophy for himself?
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Practically guaranteed.

DragonParadox said:
Actually... do we know if there is any part of that thing that could be useful for enchantments? I know it is a creature of capital C Chaos but on the other hand we did see a literal partial herdstone put to good use. I am thinking Manticore bits might be good if we want to windherd with Ghur, though I cannot think of anything that would be really all that pressing, just an idle thought for what we might want to look into at the end of the battle.
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Manticores are a bitch and a half to work with because you can never tell how one will vary from the next, so you can't be sure of any lessons you've learned from working with one will carry over to the next. Plus the only non-Chaos Wind they really resonate with is Ghur, who aren't big on documentation at the best of times. For most purposes it'd be easier to work with something like wolf or hawk parts for Ghur enchantments, less raw potential but much more institutional knowledge so it works out about the same.
 
Codex said:
Page 123 of the 2E Core Rulebook for WFRP has a poison named Manticore Spoor:

"Manticore Spoor (Average): Harvested from Manticore dung, this poison is lethal, but has soporific side-effects. The first hit made by a weapon smeared with Manticore spoor that also deals damage, requires the victim to succeed a Challenging (–10%) Will Power Test or fall asleep. If the victim fails this test, not only does he slip into a dreamless slumber, he must also succeed a Hard (–20%) Toughness Test. If he fails this test too, he dies."

Manticores have all sorts of interesting anatomical oddities. Warriors of Chaos 8th Edition page 29 says that "no two Manticores are alike. Some have manes of writhing serpents, some have iron hard scales, and many have spiked tails containing a poison capable of boiling a man's blood inside their body". There are a few different upgrade options you can take for them despending on if you're playing Chaos or Dark Elves. There's also a mention in End Times of Manticores having multiple hearts. There's a lot going on there.

I have to say though, of all the poison ingredients to give Panoramia, Manticore dung would have to be one of the ones I'd be less enthusiastic about. "Hey, we've been dating for three years, so I thought I'd bring a present. I gathered this poisonous dung for you to concoct something from if you want. Have fun."
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Eh I think Pan would take it in the spirit it was given, which is to say a practical sort of tool and not some kind of romantic gift.

I wonder if we can try to spar with Boris again and maybe we won't crit fail this time.

Glau said:
Oh! I have an idea for aftermath!

If we can get a confirmed kill on Drycha, we want to use it as a recruiting device, right?

So for the Kislevites we want to do something flashy - we've been MIA all battle from their perspective, what with invisibility. So we should use dragonflask- big, not!Ice magic to put us in the tales told. We can't rely on ice witches for spreading rumors, after all. That gets us public approval, which gives the ice witches political cover to deepen their alliance with us.

But! We can do more.

If we take the remains of Drycha to Athel Loren after learning the backstory from Laurelorn, we could ask a boon in return: that the elves aid the Brettonians against the chaos orcs. The elves, with the need for some of their garrison forces lessened in the near future and another enemy growing near their borders, are incentivized to say yes.

...depending on how much they associate us with Karak Norn.

Bringing in the elves to relive pressure on the the Brettonians with the orcs is us demonstratably following up on our pledge to do what we can to help, in the face of distance and light connections. If they win as part of an alliance we brokered, I bet they can shake a damsel lose to work with us.
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The problem with going to Athel Loren is... you have to go to Athel Loren. I think that in order to have some chance of actually talking to people and not getting met with arrows or worse things we need to get favor with the Betonians to lean on their not-quite-alliance with the more well meaning elves. Alternatively we flip the coin to protector and try to see how many beastmen we can murder in the woods before the elves get to us...

Actually that does remind me of something else, what are we going to do with that Ghyan Nut? I do not think we have a good chance to work on it next turn since it needs Pan and so a full update and not just a Web-Mat one. On the other hand once we get the Project doing something and bit jut recruiting I think we can afford do take one turn to look into the odd thing with too much magic and once that is done we might have a better in to th Forest than just showing up with a pile of ash.
 
Boney said:
They count as civilians. It is literally illegal for any male in Kislev to not own and regularly practice with a weapon.
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Actually... I didn't parse that immediately, but...

Burned_Cookie said:
That's horrifying and sexist. I keep forgetting how grim Kislev is.
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Why only the males? Kislev has very little reason to be sexist against women (considering all the badass spellcasters they deeply respect), and even if it is about the somewhat dubious fact that male body having more muscle mass on average and other such stuff (which are doubly dubious in WH where badass normals are so common, Mathilde can swing a greatsword bigger than herself, so that justification here is strange), weapon training on civilians is not about having the most efficient soldiers, it is about making sure everyone can fight on an emergency. Just ask the Spartans (yes, they were assholes, but that doesn't detract from my point. They did train their women.).

What possible reason is there to specify "male" in Kislev other than a desire to fit square medieval tropes on a round hole?
 
storryeater said:
Actually... I didn't parse that immediately, but...

Why only the males? Kislev has very little reason to be sexist against women (considering all the badass spellcasters they deeply respect), and even if it is about the somewhat dubious fact that male body having more muscle mass on average and other such stuff (which are doubly dubious in WH where badass normals are so common, Mathilde can swing a greatsword bigger than herself, so that justification here is strange), weapon training on civilians is not about having the most efficient soldiers, it is about making sure everyone can fight on an emergency. Just ask the Spartans (yes, they were assholes, but that doesn't detract from my point. They did train their women.).

What possible reason is there to specify "male" in Kislev other than a desire to fit square medieval tropes on a round hole?
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If women did 50% of the dying in battle while still doing 100% of the dying in childbirth, Kislev would die out.
 
Baring a complete failure I think we will be in a good position to negotiate with Boris. Now there are things we can offer to help Boris with. Biggest that will involve less intense Action points is The EIC. If we can partner with the Ostermark than we can bring in trade and that means taxes. While others could do that we can also bring in gong farms and sell to the dawi to help produce gun powers for Kislev. Boris needs money to rebuild Kislev from the great chaos war. Also with more money he can push through much needed reforms. Or we can just spy and get blackmail material on his enemies.
 
DragonParadox said:
Eh I think Pan would take it in the spirit it was given, which is to say a practical sort of tool and not some kind of romantic gift.
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Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Panoramia seems to be a practical person,albeit somewhat idealisticly practical, so practical gifts are the best romantic gifts. I'm not arguing for Manticore Dung to be the romantic gift, but I object to the two concepts being separated.
 
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