You mean the Fimir? Those were basically almost genocided by the Old Ones when they warmed up the planet. More moral. Please. Such moral. Much wow.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I believe there's mention somewhere of her having allied Elves with spider tattoos (might be an army book, might be End Times, I'll try to check after work)
I was counting post-terraforming, if only because there is a good chance that there just wasn't a forest in any given location pre-terraforming.
- Location
- Greece
That sounds like One Piece.
Like, the setting is worse than some settings trying to go for darkness, but you wouldn't know it, because the main characters are niceish people and optimistic and keep winning against the monsters. (well, except for the times they lose, but those tend to just reinforces my point.)
That's honestly pretty standard for Shonen.
Like, Bleach? The afterlive is fucked, you either get eaten by a cannibal ghost, become a cannibal ghost (and probably get eaten by another cannibal ghost), or live in some degree of poverty. Only a small number of people aren't screwed. And there's some absurdly terrible details too.
Naruto? Everybody is a professional killer and spy, and they either are or were child soldiers.
DBZ? Probably one of the brightest shonen setting, and you regularly have planets blown up.
MHA? Draconian laws about using the ubiqious super powers, and it's only just coming out of a dark age, pretty much because of the last generations shonen protagonist.
I am personally happy to not give the Asrai the benefit of the dought.
not because they are elves or any other race/ethic/sex/etc context that people are trying to throw around. (I like the Enoir thank you very much.)
Its because they have a well-known history of being dicks for the lols of it.
The high elves have dick moments, but they also have a lot of doing good for the sake of it moments as well and generally try to do what's good for the world when the chips are down.
The enoir honestly just wanted to be left alone, if anything the humans have been the dicks in that relationship.
The Asrai do shit like go on hunting trips of sentiment people because they feel like it.
they do shit like kill everyone in a white flag envoy.
they do shit like take soldiers that have surrendered in battle to either be killed and fed to the woods or promised that they can go as long as they win this ritual fight against someone they know the soldier cant beat and then kill them as slowly as possible 1000 cuts style.
they are not liked by the other 'order' nations because they have repeatably and gleefully broken the rules of engagement (treat prisoners well, dont attack a white flag, fight battles-not hit and run on none combatant villages, etc etc) that all the others 'Asur, Dwarfs, Empire, Kislav, Kightland etc' respect in a way that only the 'bad' groups do more often.
now, that's not to say that none of the above hasn't done so, Asur are implied or out right stated to practice slavery, many Kightlanders mistreated non-noble combatants, empire attacking villages, dwarfs don't really have a concept of 'mercy' or not ok targets etc etc. (The Enoir are the only ones that have technically never broken engagement edict, tho I think no one would say their clearing of the villages from their, by treaty, land as not a yikes moment.)
But those are the exceptions and are considered bad moments in their history, The Asrai do it quite regularly and are often very smug about how they 'outsmarted' the silly humans/dwarf/other elves.
So no, I don't feel the need to offer parlay to a group that regularly abuses such concepts when they don't ignore them altogether.
the Asrai are not the good guys, they are at their best the neutral guys.
even at the absolute best interpretation of their current actions, that, somehow, they have only killed vampires and their willing agents, they still took a warhost to the otherside of the world to pick a fight instead of contacting Kislav and going, 'yo, I've got a problem with that guy, lets talk before we go to arms... oh, and did you know he is a vampire?'
they are dicks, because they have chosen to be dicks.
not because they are elves or any other race/ethic/sex/etc context that people are trying to throw around. (I like the Enoir thank you very much.)
Its because they have a well-known history of being dicks for the lols of it.
The high elves have dick moments, but they also have a lot of doing good for the sake of it moments as well and generally try to do what's good for the world when the chips are down.
The enoir honestly just wanted to be left alone, if anything the humans have been the dicks in that relationship.
The Asrai do shit like go on hunting trips of sentiment people because they feel like it.
they do shit like kill everyone in a white flag envoy.
they do shit like take soldiers that have surrendered in battle to either be killed and fed to the woods or promised that they can go as long as they win this ritual fight against someone they know the soldier cant beat and then kill them as slowly as possible 1000 cuts style.
they are not liked by the other 'order' nations because they have repeatably and gleefully broken the rules of engagement (treat prisoners well, dont attack a white flag, fight battles-not hit and run on none combatant villages, etc etc) that all the others 'Asur, Dwarfs, Empire, Kislav, Kightland etc' respect in a way that only the 'bad' groups do more often.
now, that's not to say that none of the above hasn't done so, Asur are implied or out right stated to practice slavery, many Kightlanders mistreated non-noble combatants, empire attacking villages, dwarfs don't really have a concept of 'mercy' or not ok targets etc etc. (The Enoir are the only ones that have technically never broken engagement edict, tho I think no one would say their clearing of the villages from their, by treaty, land as not a yikes moment.)
But those are the exceptions and are considered bad moments in their history, The Asrai do it quite regularly and are often very smug about how they 'outsmarted' the silly humans/dwarf/other elves.
So no, I don't feel the need to offer parlay to a group that regularly abuses such concepts when they don't ignore them altogether.
the Asrai are not the good guys, they are at their best the neutral guys.
even at the absolute best interpretation of their current actions, that, somehow, they have only killed vampires and their willing agents, they still took a warhost to the otherside of the world to pick a fight instead of contacting Kislav and going, 'yo, I've got a problem with that guy, lets talk before we go to arms... oh, and did you know he is a vampire?'
they are dicks, because they have chosen to be dicks.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
It depends on what content you're consuming. The Ciaphas Cain novels are much brighter than the reste. Sure, evil can't be vanquished for good. But good people can still fight and stop death and destruction for one more day.
I don't think anyone argued that elves are « the betters » of humans. What I mostly remember was people arguing that humans broke a treaty with the elves and took their territory for themselves, all the while cutting trees that contribute to the fight against Choas.
Is murder wrong? Obviously. Was there another way for the elves to take their land back and discourage further encroachment? I don't know.
- Location
- Finland
I did argue that the response from some of the human authorities was biased as hell and motivated mostly by politics rather than genuine outrage over injustice.
And did defend the Eonir's, i guess right, to kick human out of their land, and that the peasants in question were effectively an invasion force, even if they were ignorant of the fact.
It does not make killing the villagers right, but i honestly don't see much the Eonir could do in practical terms that would not amount to slow suicide or murder.
And did defend the Eonir's, i guess right, to kick human out of their land, and that the peasants in question were effectively an invasion force, even if they were ignorant of the fact.
It does not make killing the villagers right, but i honestly don't see much the Eonir could do in practical terms that would not amount to slow suicide or murder.
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
I don't know if there was any other way to get the refugees moving in the first place, but by the same standard that makes the Kislev village almost certainly a trap, it's beyond merely implausible that the Eonir didn't know about the ten thousand plus refugees trying to leave their woods on foot.
This being Warhammer, you may have to establish that you are willing and able to engage in gratuitous murder before anyone takes your land claims and treaty seriously. Blech.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Isn't that also how real life politics used to work?
I bet Ariel knows how to make a Waystone though
[><] Attempt a parlay
Not to get too political, but it is very much like some modern historical and current events where 'they had the right to none violent protest' is endorsed 'because we are and have up till now been happy to ignore it'. and then try and turn it around to 'see! they used violence! that's not a legtiment way to protest!'
The inda independence movement was one of the greatest examples of human decency triumphing over the worst instincts of nations. (not ignoring some of the breakdowns, racism or more violent moments at the ground level)
but a lot of that does have to do with the fact that, in that moment in history, the Brits at the top, in the military and at home had at least some sense of ethics of a modern sense.
go back a hundred or so years and they would have happily gun down the protesters.
and, to be frank, I really don't see Elf Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr or Charles Stewart Parnell or José Rizal getting very far with the types of nation that the empire of Sigamr is just like I would not see any of them getting very far with the IRL Holy roman empire or 18th century Russia or medieval France.
this is not unique to warhammer.
to be frank, we live in an odd place and time in the history of man that this is not seen as a universal truth.
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I do not think one can compare the Eonir with many modern minority groups, like I don't know Native Americans, or at least not Native Americans now. They are like 'what if the tribes during the Indian Wars had jet fighters?'
The elves are still in a disadvantage in the long run just because of population and pressures from beastmen but they are more than able to break most human armies that come against them, they are still significant political players with their own policy. It should also be noted that the Eonir themselves saw killing those Norlanders as evil, a necessary evil in their view at least at the time, but still evil.
There are no simple moral answers to this because it is a very messy situation... well Ok there is one simple moral answer, the elector counts of Norland who broke treaties were definitely in the wrong, but apart from that it is shades of grey all the way across.
- Location
- California
I would like to note that while the Wood Elves are certainly major dicks to everyone else, I don't really think there's any sort of recognized rules of war that hold across multiple polities in the Old World. Generals of the Empire have agreed to settle disputes with duels while secretly arranging for cannons to deploy during the pause in fighting. When asked for an agreement to stick to Myrmidia's laws of war, another general agreed, won a battle, and then while torturing some prisoners he was told that he had been killing non-combatants during the battle; these non-combatants were sent out as part of the Myrmidian laws of war, but the general knew nothing about the laws he had agreed to fight under other than thinking they may have disadvantaged his opponents. In another event, Thorgrim and Louen got into an argument because Thorgrim was getting ready to execute a group of human prisoners while Louen was advocating they live.
I do not bring this up to say that the Wood Elves haven't earned the ire of other groups and I do not challenge the belief that fighting them without a parley is the best option here. However, I don't like the idea that the Wood Elves are uniquely in the wrong when it comes to breaking rules of engagement. I simply don't think there's a widely agreed upon set of rules of engagement across the cultures in the old world.
I would like to point that that I said in the post that the other groups break war ethics. And ya there probably isn't a set that all know and follow.
But what I was saying is that they are by far known to be the worst at it, in All it's shapes and forms, on a policy level, not just individual generals having No scruples.
- Location
- Australia
[X] Contact Ostermark
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Turns out it was a novel.
From the wiki, from Grail Knight, of the Knights of Bretonnia series.
So spider tats are the wood elf version of a prison brand?
To expand on this, maybe something that he thought of as a family heirloom was connected to Drycha all along, but with the prolonged exposure to the Aethyr, it got boosted to the point she can sense it now?
I was thinking more of a elf artifact stolen or foundthat Drycha wants so she can wipe out the elves, humans, dawi, anything not a tree spirit.
I would say if the man is a Chaos worshiper or a Vampire or has been fucking around with places scared to the Gods then that would one be a reason not to have the fight because to would only benefit the forces of evil if we lose a lot of fighters and the Elf's do to. It would also cause the super pious Boris and the Ice Witches who really don't like Chaos or Vampires to want to deal with a traitor in their midst before they get in to a big fight.
Now a fight is 99% percent certain because of OC information but I would like to know if Vampires fucking around has brought Drycha out of her usual places of interest.
Boss if the giving of this kind of gift would be taken the wrong way most of the time and most of the Ice Witches are the slowest part of a Kislevite army then what is the state of things like the enchanted sled's/chariots they some times use and the special horses who breath is like a icy wind that Katarin is said to have in the lore and are they something special to the royals.
P.S sorry for double post.
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At least, without any scouting, we might not have any idea what the Wood Elves are doing or why, but whether or not this whole things turns into a "bloody day" isn't really Kislev's choice considering the assumed plan is to "walk in the direction of the besieged villages and see what happens".
If Athen Loren really is after the Boyar Kalashnikov (maybe they just need a lot of blood for some ritual or they pan to lure Kisle's army into a conflict with a herd of beastmen or something), then they can just retreat without engaging the Kislev forces.
If Athen Loren doesn't want to fight with the Tzar they can just leave. At that point, at least we could talk to the hags... unless of course the warhost slaughters the villages wholesale to prevent information from getting out and then bugger off to try again later.
If Athen Loren really is after the Boyar Kalashnikov (maybe they just need a lot of blood for some ritual or they pan to lure Kisle's army into a conflict with a herd of beastmen or something), then they can just retreat without engaging the Kislev forces.
If Athen Loren doesn't want to fight with the Tzar they can just leave. At that point, at least we could talk to the hags... unless of course the warhost slaughters the villages wholesale to prevent information from getting out and then bugger off to try again later.
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I have considered what you said and i have elected to ignore it.
Pretty much yeah... and when they do need it, its most likely important enough that Ancient Widow lets them do the powerwalk thingy that let Lliljana be faster than us despite still only seemingly walking at a normal pace.
Considering they also have a spell that lets them take the form of a flying Frostfiend I agree they can move very fast when they need to.