Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
While this assessment does come from a reasonable place, I do believe that it may in fact be an overestimation of the difficulty.

In 40k, some Chaos guys created the Daemonculaba, which were mutilated, mutated women and made to birth live Chaos Space Marines. Some of those born in this way were born mutated, disfigured and without skin, called the Unfleshed, and were flushed through the sewer systems to die. Some however survived, and not only did they survive, they weren't evil and worshipped the Emperor. Also all this was happening on a Daemon World.

So yeah. Chaos mutants born through Chaos sorcery on a daemon world, yet were Emperor-worshippers and good people. If we took a skaven baby and grew it right with Order gods in mind, that might all that'd be needed to take it away from Chaos.

EDIT: "For little gain" is probably correct though. Very few skaven actually have the potential to be heroes and such, while most are just slave stock and the like, and skaven have very short lifespans no matter what. Just not worth it.

EDIT2: Shallya would love us for it though.
The comparison doesn't hold. The Unfleshed were transformed humans who retained memories of their previous lives, and weren't soul-bound to a warp entity beyond passive corruption for being on a daemon-world. Trying to redeem a Skaven would be much, much more difficult due to said soulbond and their alien psychology predisposing them to a laundry list of bad shit.

No, it's not actually possible, because Skaven are still a beastman strain.

Beastmen literally, actually, genuinely cannot coexist with anything more complicated than roving marauder gangs. Skaven barely function because they've got their god riding shotgun, and you see that aggression being taken out with their incredible infighting and tendency to kill each other more than anyone else can kill them. It's not a matter of upbringing, it's not a matter of nurture. They are engineered to be monsters by laughing gods.

It's to the point where the Skaven literally weaponize this, the most deadly spell they know does one thing--it turns a bunch of people into Skaven. Those Skaven instantly and without hesitation turn on what was once friends and comrades, and then join the rest of the rat horde.

40K can allow the maximum tragedy thing, because the scale of 40K is such that the exceptions are literally irrelevant, they exist merely to grind the boot in further. Fantasy breaks down if you do that because it's ultimately a heroic fantasy--if one in the vein of the Elric stories.

The effort needed to pull away even the smallest portion from the Horned Rat's interference would be enough that if you can do this, you could spend it doing something else instead, and then it probably dies out because the Skaven cannot function as a species without their monstrosity.

By the time you've carved away everything that makes the Skaven wicked... You don't really have Skaven anymore.
Agreed. At that point you are basically creating a new species out of the Nazi-rats.
 
No, it's not actually possible, because Skaven are still a beastman strain.

Beastmen literally, actually, genuinely cannot coexist with anything more complicated than roving marauder gangs..
What about that one Beastlord in Bretonnia who is establishing a framework to basically farm humans (in the RPG at least)?

Not that this actually takes away from your main point, mind you.
 
What about that one Beastlord in Bretonnia who is establishing a framework to basically farm humans (in the RPG at least)?

Not that this actually takes away from your main point, mind you.

Dubiously canon to begin with, and doesn't actually take the point away--arguably, it just means 'I like killing people so much that I'm going to use my greater than average intelligence to figure out how to farm them instead of have to go looking for them'.

It's hardwired to every strain of Beastman to hate and loathe any trapping of civilization. It's not a culture thing at all, they literally get driven into a killing rage by seeing anything more complicated than a lean-to.
 
What about that one Beastlord in Bretonnia who is establishing a framework to basically farm humans (in the RPG at least)?
That...why? Obviously they wouldn't care about the moral reasons to not do that, but that's just...dumb. Humans take forever to grow up, and are smart enough to be good at escaping. Does he have nothing better to do with his time?
 
@Alectai while I agree with your point in by and large, dismissing the Skaven's ability to have a society as 'the Horned Rat riding shotgon' does not really feel accurate to me since gods are a reflection of their worshipers. If the Horned Rat can manipulate the Skaven into a society (albeit a monstrous one) then something about the Skaven themselves shaped the god to both be able and willing to do that.
 
@Alectai while I agree with your point in by and large, dismissing the Skaven's ability to have a society as 'the Horned Rat riding shotgon' does not really feel accurate to me since gods are a reflection of their worshipers. If the Horned Rat can manipulate the Skaven into a society (albeit a monstrous one) then something about the Skaven themselves shaped the god to both be able and willing to do that.
Gods have independent agency too, they're more than just a worshiper poll.
 
@Alectai while I agree with your point in by and large, dismissing the Skaven's ability to have a society as 'the Horned Rat riding shotgon' noes not really feel accurate to me since gods are a reflection of their worshipers. If the horned rat can manipulate the Skaven into a society (albeit a monstrous one) then something about the Skaven themselves shaped the god to both be able and willing to do that.
My understanding is that the Skaven were crated bc of a cloaked figure tricking a Tilean city into building a belltower for him; on the thirteenth toll, every human in the city became a Skaven, and the city has since become Skavenblight. I always thought that the mysterious figure was the Horned Rat either acting through a mortal minion or that he ascended when the transformation happened.
 
@Alectai while I agree with your point in by and large, dismissing the Skaven's ability to have a society as 'the Horned Rat riding shotgon' does not really feel accurate to me since gods are a reflection of their worshipers. If the Horned Rat can manipulate the Skaven into a society (albeit a monstrous one) then something about the Skaven themselves shaped the god to both be able and willing to do that.

The Horned Rat literally created the Skaven by all indications, or at least the thing that eventually became it.

Their origin story is literally "A settlement of humans and dwarfs were getting along, then a stranger came by, made them build a belltower, then the bell tolled thirteen times and everyone died, and in the ruins rose the Skaven"

Straight up 'A divine being showed up and invented his own worshippers" thing. He's only not a Chaos God in truth because the Four don't care for competitors.

But notably, he's too strong for them to crush like they do most other upstarts
 
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So can i just say that it rea
My understanding is that the Skaven were crated bc of a cloaked figure tricking a Tilean city into building a belltower for him; on the thirteenth toll, every human in the city became a Skaven, and the city has since become Skavenblight. I always thought that the mysterious figure was the Horned Rat either acting through a mortal minion or that he ascended when the transformation happened.
This video should help refresh your memory
 
The Horned Rat literally created the Skaven by all indications.

Their origin story is literally "A settlement of humans and dwarfs were getting along, then a stranger came by, then the bell tolled thirteen times and everyone died, and in the ruins rose the Skaven"

Straight up 'A divine being showed up and invented his own worshippers" thing.

True, but that does not make him immune to the laws of the warp, everyone from the Chaos gods to Sigmar, to the Elven Gods, light and dark are shaped and defined by their worshipers, even as their nature reflects back into the materium as divine lore and miracles
 
Is there a source for all this "Gods are moulded by their worshippers and slaves to their nature" thing? To my knowledge, the nature of the gods in Fantasy and 40k has always been a mystery whenever you step outside Chaos. I can't remember anything definitive being said in canon, just a bunch of forumgoers saying stuff in a definitive way.

Gods have limited agency yes but in their grand design, in their fundamental nature, they are a reflection of their worshipers and their domains. Ranald for instance couldn't refuse gamble with his life when Mathilde offered him stolen power.
Here's an alternative. The reason Ranald made the gamble wasn't because he's a slave to his nature, it's because he just really likes gambling - likes it so much he became a god of gambling. Like a warrior who likes war so much he becomes a war god. You really gonna say for sure that new war god does war because he has to rather than just because he likes it as much as he always has?
 
No, Order gods are influenced by their followers, Chaos Gods are not, they're above caring what mortals think of them and instead, make mortals into their own images--that's what Corruption is

And the Horned Rat functionally qualifies as a Chaos God in all meaningful respects--up to and including being atemporal apparently (The whole 'Literally created his own followers' thing) He just isn't officially part of their numbers in Fantasy because he spends too much time micromanaging the Skaven as opposed to operating on the global basis and pulling in other powers like the others do--making him a minor player in their Great Game.

Notably though, his strategy is a winning one in the long term, as Age of Sigmar shows when he does, in fact, becomes a true Chaos God just based on how powerful the Skaven have become. He doesn't need to do mass corruption when all he needs to do is make the most powerful race of followers imaginable.

After all, the weaknesses of the Skaven are only relevant when they start to lose--if you've functionally made them all powerful as an institution, their weaknesses don't matter, do they?
 
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Mathilde converting Skaven, even if viable in general, is both way outside her expertise and would require way more resources than she has.

In the short and medium term liberating Karak Eight Peaks and becoming a better wizard and doing all the research projects are more productive ways to spend time.


Here's an alternative. The reason Ranald made the gamble wasn't because he's a slave to his nature, it's because he just really likes gambling - likes it so much he became a god of gambling. Like a warrior who likes war so much he becomes a war god. You really gonna say for sure that new war god does war because he has to rather than just because he likes it as much as he always has?

The options aren't really mutually exclusive.
 
Gods have limited agency yes but in their grand design, in their fundamental nature, they are a reflection of their worshipers and their domains. Ranald for instance couldn't refuse gamble with his life when Mathilde offered him stolen power.
Assuming that the reflection idea is true, by all accounts the Horned Rat created the Skaven in their own image, so his worshippers would just reinforce his own personality.
 
That...why? Obviously they wouldn't care about the moral reasons to not do that, but that's just...dumb. Humans take forever to grow up, and are smart enough to be good at escaping. Does he have nothing better to do with his time?
IIRC, its because he makes deals with human villages to graciously donate some of their babies in exchange for not getting attacked and pillaged by his Warherd. As they grow up, they either get eaten when they get extra succulent, become slave labor and/or caretakers for the human larders, or brainwashed missionaries to spread the word of Only Kinda Being Eaten By Beastmen to other villages. Which, considering that Beastmen have difficulty talking human...so yeah, dubious, if imo interesting, canon.

For context, this occurs in Mousillion.
 
No, Order gods are influenced by their followers, Chaos Gods are not, they're above caring what mortals think of them and instead, make mortals into their own images--that's what Corruption is
The whole premise of Chaos is that they're the embodiments of all the thoughts and emotions of every living being with a soul. The gods of Chaos are the most influenced out of all the gods by mortals.
 
No, Order gods are influenced by their followers, Chaos Gods are not, they're above caring what mortals think of them and instead, make mortals into their own images--that's what Corruption is

And the Horned Rat functionally qualifies as a Chaos God in all meaningful respects--up to and including being atemporal apparently (The whole 'Literally created his own followers' thing)

Nah you're pretty much wrong. Order gods also have their own varient of corruption it's just not called out as that unless you think the divine marks are some how latent expressions of a persons genome suddenly activating allowing them to grow multiple inches in height all of a sudden. All of the gods are moulded in the image their worshippers believe them to have just as the gods do the same to their most devout. The chaos gods embodying certain concepts and emotions draw from a well spring that's large enough that individuals no matter how exceptional are unable to mould them in meaningful ways due to the momentum behind their histories.



The whole premise of Chaos is that they're the embodiments of all the thoughts and emotions of every living being with a soul. The gods of Chaos are the most influenced out of all the gods by mortals.

Pretty much this.
 
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The whole premise of Chaos is that they're the embodiments of all the thoughts and emotions of every living being with a soul. The gods of Chaos are the most influenced out of all the gods by mortals.

That's the 40K interpretation (And dubious even then, because the Chaos Gods have never shown themselves to be influenced by mortals, it's literally treated as a joke in lore that mortals ever could influence them), Fantasy just has them as being super powerful evil gods who break most of the rules of gods.

Or something, my 40K divine deep lore shit only goes so far.
 
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No, Order gods are influenced by their followers, Chaos Gods are not, they're above caring what mortals think of them and instead, make mortals into their own images--that's what Corruption is

I don't think the distinction works personally Order gods 'corrupt' their worshipers too, that is what divine marks are not to mention wide scale blessings like the Lady hands out, it's just that their influence is not inimical to sanity and civilization.
 
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Still looking for a source that non-Chaos gods are in fact moulded by their worshippers.

Well Sigmar the god wouldn't exist with out it as he only became divine long after he was dead and the accumulated veneration of him created a god now you can pretend that he was always divine but that's pretty much bollocks given that he didn't start granting miracles until after he died.
 
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