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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Baring a massive upset or new information it looks like we are going to try to search for him before the murder happens. The problem is it is a big city and I hope the Longshanks are use to searching a city for a single chaos cultists.
 
[X] Plan Searching in the Shadows
[X] Plan Close the Noose
[X] Plan Hammer and Anvil
[X] Plan Longshanks:
 
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DragonParadox said:
It was more a joke than a legitimate critique. Even if Alric is a total incompetent (which is not guaranteed) he certainly would not think of it like that.
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And heck, we know he isn't incompetent on the basis of:
-He made Lord Magister, and none of the Colleges offer that title lightly.
-He made Patriarch, and managed to hold on to the seat in spite of presiding over the biggest debacle in College history.
-He made Supreme Patriarch before, and that puts his name in the top 0.1% of Imperial asskickers.
-For all of his poor showing, he was close enough in skill to Dragomas that he was legitimately in the running - admittedly Dragomas would probably take the position back the next time things rolled around, but he could. And Mathilde isn't even in reach to try barring a cheap shot.

He's at a minimum a master politician and duelist.
Its just that he treats his subordinates like ass.
 
Boney said:
People who are really good at assuming false identities might, but Mathilde is only okay at it, and thinks of Alys as a fictional character she's playing instead.
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To be fair, this is the difference between living like Alys Schmidt for several years and occasionally reporting observations through dead drops, and simply renting a room under a false name and staring out the window for a week. If Mathilde ever had to work under deep cover for a long while, this quest would gain a comletely different character and pace, but as the simulated assassination in the journeyman days showed, you can go most places with the right clothes and a good excuse. Alys Schmidt is like a hat, she can be put on quickly and discarded without too much thought, and not being a complete cover, much like a hat, isn't any sort of failure.
 
silentorphan said:
Altdorf is supposed to be the heart of the Cult of Sigmar, yet in various adventure modules and lore books, the Witch Hunters tend to screw up investigating stuff in Altdorf.
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That's because Witch Hunters are fallible and in many of those cases the authors don't want the Witch Hunters to succeed so some group of plucky adventurers can do the job. That's the point of many of these adventures.

Also, Altdorf is significantly worse than Talabheim. That place cannot be mapped because of the magic that Teclis used to create the Colleges, so it's constantly shifting and you can only track where you are by using landmarks. It's a pretty bizarre place. Talabheim for all its sacred nature isn't constantly changing where its buildings are.
 
Shane_357 said:
No, true Beastmen are completely and inviolably malevolent, by the will of the Chaos Gods. You can't fix them, you can't raise a Gave to be good, it's just what they are, complete puppets.
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Sounds lame. This mindset of Chaos having a perfect grip on such thing is so boring.

See my pfp? That was a mutant I played in a WHF for six months, and easily the best WHF character I ever made. I'd be down as hell to play or read about a Beastmen trying to get his people to the side of the order. That shit would SLAP.
 
Gaves are just mutant children raised by Beastmen. Mutants can be good people. Society usually pushes them to be who they are, but generally there isn't a "if you have a mutation you must be evil" special rule in the RPG. Some mutations are particularly bad, and if you reach enough you turn into a Chaos Spawn, but most mutations don't even turn you evil.
 
Codex said:
Gaves are just mutant children raised by Beastmen. Mutants can be good people. Society usually pushes them to be who they are, but generally there isn't a "if you have a mutation you must be evil" special rule in the RPG. Some mutations are particularly bad, and if you reach enough you turn into a Chaos Spawn, but most mutations don't even turn you evil.
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If we go with 4e, only half of all mutations for humans are physical and very few of those have any effect on the mind (they make you dumber). The other half are mental mutations, some of which can make you evil, but they don't change your appearance. If you want to find the people turned evil by Chaos, the visibly mutated are the wrong place to look.
 
BTW I would just like to say. @Boney I was talking to my sibling (nonbinary and they use They/It pronouns) about this quest and Cython in general, as well as the fact that you happen to use they and it pronouns for a relatively prominent character in the story. They were pretty happy about it. After my description, their response was to say "they're just like me for real", which is the highest of praise. My sibling also wants to be an immortal ice dragon who doesn't care about gender.

My quest to get them invested in the story so they can actually get started on reading it is still ongoing, but I have high hopes. Agender Dragons are a selling point for them at least.
 
Codex said:
Gaves are just mutant children raised by Beastmen. Mutants can be good people. Society usually pushes them to be who they are, but generally there isn't a "if you have a mutation you must be evil" special rule in the RPG. Some mutations are particularly bad, and if you reach enough you turn into a Chaos Spawn, but most mutations don't even turn you evil.
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No? There's a clear line between mutant and Beastman, the former is free to oppose Chaos if it wishes and the latter is not. The former often co-exists with the latter, but Gaves are explicitly Beastmen born to human parents. They are a separate thing from mutants, which are also born to human parents and this is unchanged in every official canon I have access to.
 
Shane_357 said:
No? There's a clear line between mutant and Beastman, the former is free to oppose Chaos if it wishes and the latter is not. The former often co-exists with the latter, but Gaves are explicitly Beastmen born to human parents. They are a separate thing from mutants, which are also born to human parents and this is unchanged in every official canon I have access to.
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I quoted a direct section from Tome of Corruption 2E and gave the exact page number:
Codex said:
"Throughout the lands of the Empire and northwards, it is not uncommon for healthy Human parents to produce a Mutant child. Some try to conceal their baby's deformities, but most feel such shame that they give them up to the forests and rivers, abandoning them to die from hunger or exposure. The Beastmen are keen for the whimpers of these lost children. Such foundlings are always adopted and reared with the rest of the herd, since the Beastmen regard these infants as gifts from their Gods.

These Mutants are called Gaves or Gave Children. As they grow, they often become Gors, Ungors, or even Brays, but the rest of the herd do not apply the same stigma that they do others of their kind since they are holy (or, rather, unholy) gifts, and any Gave can rise high in Beastman society" Page 102 Tome of Corruption
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You're free to check independently.
 
Codex said:
I quoted a direct section from Tome of Corruption 2E and gave the exact page number:

You're free to check independently.
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This confuses me, because it's been a plot point in certain books that Gaves raised by their parents still turn out evil, with one (The Black Plague trilogy) raised by their noble family who concealed him eventually killing, cooking and eating his entire family and servants, then roaming off on his own. The only difference between him and other Beastmen being that he cooks his victims.
 
Shane_357 said:
This confuses me, because it's been a plot point in certain books that Gaves raised by their parents still turn out evil, with one raised by their noble family who concealed him eventually killing, cooking and eating his entire family and servants, then roaming off on his own. The only difference between him and other Beastmen being that he cooks his victims.
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I don't know what other books you're talking about, but that's Warhammer for you. Different authors have different ideas. In this case, Tome of Corruption takes precedence over the majority of other books you've read. The reason for this being that it's one of the highest books in the canonicity tier list for DL. Of course, the final authority on things are not the lore books, but Boney, and Boney is far more inclined towards the "not beyond redemption" path.
 
Codex said:
I don't know what other books you're talking about, but that's Warhammer for you. Different authors have different ideas. In this case, Tome of Corruption takes precedence over the majority of other books you've read. The reason for this being that it's one of the highest books in the canonicity tier list for DL. Of course, the final authority on things are not the lore books, but Boney, and Boney is far more inclined towards the "not beyond redemption" path.
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Hm. Where is that list by the way?
 
Shane_357 said:
Hm. Where is that list by the way?
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It's in WoQM FAQs informational post:
Boney said:
Canonicity (for Quest purposes)
Tier 1: The Quest itself is primary canon.
Tier 2: WoQM applies unless it violates Quest canon (which I assume it has or will at some point).
Tier 3: Army Books (6th+), WHFRPG 2e - reasonably safe to assume that the fluff in these is canon unless the Quest or WoQM says otherwise. Game mechanics should not be taken as canon.
Tier 4: Black Library, White Dwarf articles - canonish, but the QM may not be familiar with them and the details are likely to end up varying if they are used.
Tier 5: Licensed video games, Warhammer Armies Project, WHFRPG 3e & 4e - mostly only used for things that aren't otherwise covered in higher tiers, and by default are not canon.
Tier 6: Army Books (pre-6th), WHFRPG (1e) - the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone. May be looted for ideas from time to time but is usually completely incompatible.
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Honestly basically everyone who participates in warhammer stuff treats the novels at a lower level of canonicity because the fact of the matter is, Black Library is normally not making authors have an encyclopedic knowledge of the facts of either warhammer setting and there are LOTS of little facts of booth warhammer.
 
reignonyrparade said:
Honestly basically everyone who participates in warhammer stuff treats the novels at a lower level of canonicity because the fact of the matter is, Black Library is normally not making authors have an encyclopedic knowledge of the facts of either warhammer setting and there are LOTS of little facts of booth warhammer.
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I definitely get that feeling. It's also pretty understandable. The amount of lore to consume is absolutely overwhelming, and I don't think those authors are paid to research dozens of books. I'm also unsure how many of those authors are massive lore buffs before they started writing. Chances are some are just freelance writers who were hired to write things down about Warhammer and only did a reasonable amount of research depending on the freedom they were given (they could have just decided to make stuff up for the hell of it depending on how strict or not strict Black Library is).

I do notice when stuff from the novels is shoved into the Army and RPG books though. This is usually after the novel is released as the authors see what is popular and decide to incorporate it into the lore. I think the most famous example is Gotrek and Felix and Malus Darkblade, which I believe both started as novel characters that were integrated into the lore? Or was it the opposite? I'm not super familiar with Warhammer history tbh.
 
Andres said:
If we go with 4e, only half of all mutations for humans are physical and very few of those have any effect on the mind (they make you dumber). The other half are mental mutations, some of which can make you evil, but they don't change your appearance. If you want to find the people turned evil by Chaos, the visibly mutated are the wrong place to look.
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I'd probably frame it as...the attention of the Chaos Gods often manifests as mutation, but there are many ways to get mutations.

Its just that:
-Its easier to find proof of mutation than proof of Chaos worship.
-The mutated have a low status in society and also poor living conditions, but in Chaos cults(or beastmen tribes) such things give them high status.
-People don't really need much excuse to fear or hate those who are different to begin with, these are a population religiously obligated to aid dwarfs who also lynch dwarfs sometimes. Mutants have no such protection and are thus much easier to blame for whatever is going wrong.
 
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