Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Codex]

@Boney I have a question about the Armor of Van Tarnus. Is it possible for Mathilde to spend favor to get a look on the enchantment if the Armor is in the vaults of the Colleges of Magic, as a source of inspiration? I was just thinking about Von Tarnus and he was an amazing enchanter, and I was wondering if we could look at his work and see if we could learn something. Sorry if the question seems out of nowhere, but I've been thinking it for a while.

It's also quite possible that we get absolutely nothing from looking at the enchantments.

 

[das_slash]

... I'm trying to imagine what happens when a Grey Magister endorses someone. And the only thing I can think I of is "what did he do? Who did he kill? Are the skeletons in his closet in the double or triple digits?"

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"No fool! they are obviously investigating him and want to drive up his paranoia so he makes a mistake"

"Then why would they make it public instead of leaving a note or something? it's a message to his enemies that they know their plans"

"If you weren't such idiots you would both realize that it's a distraction while their real plans and targets happen elsewhere!"

Grey Wizard "He really makes the best strudels, i hope his business can expand soon"

 

[CrimsonOddball]

It's not so much about the rank per-say, but about letting Egrimm feel in control of his own life. Under Alric, I don't think his resentment was purely about the lack of promotion, but also about how he had very little freedom, with Alric controlling every bit of his life. I don't want to give him the impression that we're fundamentally the same as Alric - if more pleasant to work with - and him securing his promotion solely as a concession to us is probably going to paint us as the same sort of controlling person as Alric. I think that sort of realization would demoralize him, and would cause a bit of a rift, as he would see us as potentially another shackle to escape.



I don't think he would turn it down, but I wouldn't expect much gratitude either.

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I don't understand the idea that he'd resent a fast track promotion, or how it'd give him the impression that we are controlling his life

A promotion to Lord Magister is not a freebie we're giving to him to tie him on a string
It's not even something that we are giving to him, we're just vouching for his competence and trustworthiness, we aren't a Light Wizard after all, we have no real authority over the internal workings of his college
And it puts him at a peer rank with us, with a far greater ability to pursue his own interests and a far greater access to secrets and mysteries

Calling the equivalent of recieving glowing letter of recommendation shackling him to our control this is an odd way for Egrimm to look at the situation

 

[Redshirt Army]

I think, ultimately, I'm going to come down on the side of helping promote Horstmann. Being a peer to Mathilde and Elrisse in rank is almost certainly going to be better for him psychologically than being a full rank beneath them for however long a "promotion on merit" would take.

 

[Boney]

@Boney I have a question about the Armor of Van Tarnus. Is it possible for Mathilde to spend favor to get a look on the enchantment if the Armor is in the vaults of the Colleges of Magic, as a source of inspiration? I was just thinking about Von Tarnus and he was an amazing enchanter, and I was wondering if we could look at his work and see if we could learn something. Sorry if the question seems out of nowhere, but I've been thinking it for a while.

It's also quite possible that we get absolutely nothing from looking at the enchantments.

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If Mathilde was a Bright Wizard there might be useful insight to be gleaned, but she's doubly separated from Von Tarnus' enchantment idiom.

 

[Codex]

If Mathilde was a Bright Wizard there might be useful insight to be gleaned, but she's doubly separated from Von Tarnus' enchantment idiom.

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Ah, understandable. I was just wondering how he managed to create effects with universal affinity to the Winds instead of just Aqshy, since he was the one who made the Staff of Volans which resonates with every wind. His enchantments were on par with some of the stuff the High Elves were making mechanically.

Well, I suppose we'll just have to make our own understanding of those things.

 

[Ninbefor]

We need ancient knowledge and enchantment power a lot more than Mira's prestige or an uncertain loyalty bonus for Egrimm. And we don't need a committed feud with Alric, not when he might still reclaim the Light Order.

[ ] Plan More Resources, Less Feud
-[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
-[ ] Choirmaster Stephen (2 Favours)
-[ ] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (free)
-[ ] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
-[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (1 Favour)
-[ ] Permanent access to KAU (1 Favour)

If the Waystone Project succeeds, that'll give Mathilde lots of leverage to get the Light Wizards' books into KAU. What matters now is winning the resources to make success happen.

 

[Briefvoice]

One thing I really don't want to take is the Library option. I don't want to make the K8P Library permanently lesser (and that's what not getting a good reciprocity deal with the Light Order Library may amount to) in order for a momentary advantage today.

 

[Prime 2.0]

On the other hand, "Sabotage Alric" is a bad commitment. He is seeking glory and support, but his actual actions are probably legitimate. If we investigate an find him tracking a cult, but we already committed to sabotage, what would we do? Not a situation I would want Mathilde to find herself in.

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We'd steal his chance at glory and take out the cult ourselves as an anonymous actor, of course. Sabotaging Alric doesn't mean stopping the good that he might do - it just means making sure that he doesn't get any prestige.

That's something I'm decently confident we could do, but my concern is how much of our time we'd have to spend doing it when we only have so much that we can spread around on recruiting people.

 

[WorldSlayer]

Contributions:
[ ] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (free)
If nothing else, Mira would allow Egrimm access to some of the inherited secrets of the Order of Light on the weight of Mathilde's deeds and reputation alone.
[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
The Porter equivalent of the Light Order, Lady Magister Elrisse's loyalty to the Order and to the Empire is unimpeachable, and she is cleared for more access to information than any other living Light Wizard.

These seem like the most obvious choices. The person with max info access and some immediate (free) info access for Egrimm. That's basically what we want out of this deal so that works out.

Favours:
[ ] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
Promise to personally investigate what Alric is up to in Talabecland, and to inform Mira of all the details.
[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (1 Favour)
The Order of Guardians has millennia of experience against the dark forces of the world, but are usually unwilling to share what they know. Making an introduction between Mira and Gunnars could give the Light Order a foot in the door.

These seem like the best favours to take on. An introduction costs us basically nothing and having an excuse to be nosy in Talabecland is just fine and we're already sending in agents.

This leaves us with one extra favor to spend though and and we may as well get something out of it. We can spend the extra favour for a fancy magic item, or to have a magister be contributed (one skilled in rituals would be good since I think that's something we don't currently have). The other thing we can buy with the favour is Egrimm's promotion and I don't really want to use it to push for that for numerous reasons.

- If you have other ideas for Light Wizards to recruit, or other favours with which to recruit them, feel free to bring them up. 'The Light Wizard who knows the most about X' is a valid sort of Wizard to seek - Mathilde does not know the entire Light Order by name. You can recruit multiple contributing Light Wizards.

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So it would look like

[ ] Plan Getting the information we want.
[ ] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (free)
If nothing else, Mira would allow Egrimm access to some of the inherited secrets of the Order of Light on the weight of Mathilde's deeds and reputation alone.
[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (-2 Favours)
The Porter equivalent of the Light Order, Lady Magister Elrisse's loyalty to the Order and to the Empire is unimpeachable, and she is cleared for more access to information than any other living Light Wizard.
[ ] Recruit Magister with skill in rituals (-1 Favours)
[ ] Investigate Alric (+2 Favours)
Promise to personally investigate what Alric is up to in Talabecland, and to inform Mira of all the details.
[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (+1 Favour)
The Order of Guardians has millennia of experience against the dark forces of the world, but are usually unwilling to share what they know. Making an introduction between Mira and Gunnars could give the Light Order a foot in the door.

 

[Codex]

Important update to my Characters of Divided Loyalty post:

Dietlinde: A young woman who works in an upscale Altdorf teahouse in the Altdorf Southbanks, an old money district that contains the Light College.

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I'm sure she will play a vital role in the story at some point. Just like the eventual return of Little Franz the Cooper and Johan the Carter.

 

[Lurker_lurking]

[ ] Lord Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (1 Favour)
With your vouching for him, Mira would be willing to fast-track Egrimm for promotion and clear him for even more information on the subject.
[ ] Choirmaster Stephen (2 Favours)
Many Light Wizards can lead a choir, but very few can lead them for the weeks at a time it takes for the most potent of enchantments.
[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
[ ] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
Promise to personally investigate what Alric is up to in Talabecland, and to inform Mira of all the details.
[ ] Sabotage Alric (2 Favours)
Promise to indirectly interfere with whatever it is Alric is up to. Can be stacked with Investigate Alric.
[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (1 Favour)

I think these balance out well. Openly denouncing Alfric and then sabotaging him just tells him who did it. I'd rather not paint that target on Mathilde's back. It would be better to make a private deal where no one other than us and Mira needs to be sure that Mathilde moved. Others may suspect, but leave it as suspicion.

And if we're not trying to recruit Mira herself, I think her most powerful Choirmaster and the person in the Light Order that knows all the secrets can do the job.

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100% agree. I would personally love it if we could do both actions with Egrimm. OOC, because that would combine both AP to a single AP via WEB-MAT, and IC, after reading our most recent social with Egrimm again, he absolutely seems like he would be down for being personally involved in making sure this is Alric's last chapter.

Just imagine if we not only swipe Alric's big victory from him, but it's Egrimm that ends up with the credit...

That being said, even if we can't do it that way, getting 2 top-tier Light Wizards, political stability in the Light Order, and a promotion for our underling is worth the 2 AP I imagine this will take.

 

[dinomannitro6]

[ ] Recruit Magister with skill in rituals (-1 Favours)

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That would be Stephen.

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Unless it's a rather niche specialisation, probably.

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You will have to have a more narrow specialization or a different purchase.

 

[Phalfpipe]

Going for 6 favors with Introduction, Investigation , Sabotage and Denounce seems smart to me. Alfric needs to be forced into retirement before he can do any more damage, and Mira made it clear that she can only offer her full support if we take care of her problem.

I don't think half measures are going to work here. The project is too important, and we want to be thorough if we're taking a side against one of the most experienced college wizards in history.

 

[WorldSlayer]

You will have to have a more narrow specialization or a different purchase.

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Looking through the posts it looks like they're different things.

Alliterate asked about the wizard with the most skill in rituals. Which results in a 2 favour Choirmaster.

[] The Magister who knows most about Rituals (1 Favour)

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Where as I just mentioned whatever magister we can grab with skill in rituals that we can fit in for 1 favour.

 

[Ninbefor]

One thing I really don't want to take is the Library option. I don't want to make the K8P Library permanently lesser (and that's what not getting a good reciprocity deal with the Light Order Library may amount to) in order for a momentary advantage today.

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If it's just promoting Egrimm faster, I agree, that's a bad trade. Different if it's part of a package that lets us acquire Choirmaster Stephen, or Porter-equivalent Elrisse.

Stephen or Elrisse means the Waystone Project gets a top-flight ritualist or loremaster on tap. That's a major boost to project success.

A successful Waystone Project = new anti-Chaos techniques = Light Order catnip = leverage to trade for book access.

It's not a guarantee. But right now, the Waystone Project is both the world's most promising anti-Chaos research project and the world's most magnetic collection point for cross-cultural lore. Light Wizards crave both. If Mathilde's results down the line don't win her even "1 Favour" of added pull with the Light Order, our dice will have been terrible.

 

[LadyLynn]

I think an important question we need to ask ourselves is that, momentarily putting aside any favours we might extract from it, is it just plain a good idea to interfere with Alric's attempts to reclaim power?

Do we think that the Empire will be better off if we denounce or sabotage Alric's attempt to reclaim his position?

I think figuring out the answer to that question, whatever it may be, will make it significantly easier to make our decisions here.

 

[BeepSmile]

immaterial Waystone

immaterial Waystone

immaterial Waystone

 

[DragonParadox]

I think an important question we need to ask ourselves is that, putting aside any favours we might extract from it, is it just plain a good idea to interfere with Alric's attempts to reclaim power?

Do we think that the Empire will be better off if we denounce or sabotage Alric's attempt to reclaim his position?

I think figuring out the answer to that question, whatever it may be, will make it significantly easier to make our decisions here.

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The man was Grand Patriarch during the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels. For that horrific failure alone I would say he does not deserve to ever hold a leadership position alone, never-mind his truly atrocious showing in the last duel with Dragonas.

 

[Ninbefor]

Do we think that the Empire will be better off if we denounce or sabotage Alric's attempt to reclaim his position?

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Also, are we really safe to denounce or sabotage him if we don't actually think he's disloyal, but just a screwup?

"Grey Wizards are licensed to ruin you for being a traitor" is one thing. "Gray Wizards are licensed to ruin you for being a bad boss" is another.

I wouldn't want Mathilde to start getting the side-eye from all her fellow Greys for abusing the College's public trust too freely for her private politics. That could bite us in even more ways than an infuriated embittered Lord Alric could.

Now, maybe there'll be a way to sabotage Alric that doesn't sabotage any good work against Chaos. Credit-stealing is a thing! So is scandal! But if Mathilde promises sabotage yet can't find a convenient steal or scandal, she might have to choose between breaking her promise to Lady Mira -- and breaking the spirit of her oaths to Order and Empire.

 

[Copperscale]

I think we should only investigate.

Depending on what we find, we might want to try to steal his thunder so he doesn't get sole credit he great deed he probably needs to get back in the spotlight.

Mathilde already has a history of promising something, and then massively overdelivering.
And sure, the light order probably doesn't work the same way as dwarfs with rewards... But it would still give us a new lever to push.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I think an important question we need to ask ourselves is that, momentarily putting aside any favours we might extract from it, is it just plain a good idea to interfere with Alric's attempts to reclaim power?

Do we think that the Empire will be better off if we denounce or sabotage Alric's attempt to reclaim his position?

I think figuring out the answer to that question, whatever it may be, will make it significantly easier to make our decisions here.

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Alric seems to be an excellent wizard from a purely does magic well standpoint.

The problem is that he has massive failures - Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels being the foremost - and he seems to be utterly atrocious at the whole management and politicking part of leading the Light Order to the point where his own apprentice give him the thumbs down on Light Order management and then he escalated by clashing with Elspeth von Draken over Nuln and then pissing off Roswita so badly she banished him from Stirland.

Sabotage is fraught since Alric could be legitimately doing necessary and positive stuff but he's certainly not the guy who should be in a forward facing leadership position.

 

[Ninbefor]

@Boney, can Mathilde promise to sabotage Alric "but only conditional on it not harming the Empire, and if that means I can't pull it off, you don't have to send me Choirmaster Stephen"?

I'm all for Mathilde ruining Alric, but not for her committing sight-unseen that she'll sabotage him even if it means letting a Chaos cult go free or whatever.

I'd like Mathilde to agree a deal with Mira to be compensated "half up front, the other half if I find a way I can ruin Alric's efforts that neither you nor I need be ashamed of."

Can Mathilde try that, or does she believe that conditionality is not something that Mira can accept?

 

[Codex]

I do have to say:

[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
The Porter equivalent of the Light Order, Lady Magister Elrisse's loyalty to the Order and to the Empire is unimpeachable, and she is cleared for more access to information than any other living Light Wizard.

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Rereading this, it makes me curious. If Mathilde is not exaggerating here, then the person with greatest access to information in the Light Order is not the Magister Patriarch who's been doing this job for decades or the acting Magister Matriarch, but it's Elrisse the Porter.

I suppose it's some sort of safety measure where even the leader isn't cleared for access to the information the Porter has, in case the M/Patriarch needs to be taken down by the Porter.

 

[Copperscale]

@Boney, can Mathilde promise to sabotage Alric "but only conditional on it not harming the Empire, and if that means I can't pull it off, you don't have to send me Choirmaster Stephen"?

I'm all for Mathilde ruining Alric, but not for her committing sight-unseen that she'll sabotage him even if it means letting a Chaos cult go free or whatever.

I'd like Mathilde to agree a deal with Mira to be compensated "half up front, the other half if I find a way I can ruin Alric's efforts that neither you nor I need be ashamed of."

Can Mathilde try that, or does she believe that conditionality is not something that Mira can accept?

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Mathile cannot sabotage Alric to the point that a cult goes free. That's against the articles.
Bringing up the possibility of letting a cult go would raise huge red flags.
If Mira did, that might tell Mathilde that maybe she's not on the right side.
And of Mathilde did, it would damage the grey college's credibility by having a lord magister even consider acting that mercenary.

Edit: To put it another way, neither party can let on that they would even consider such a thing.
Edit 2: if mathilde promises sabotage, she has to thread the needle between sabotaging Alric's success without harming the Empire.