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Damn i laughed a bit when the option to denounce Alric came up, it's not the best idea but damn would it be spicy.

I'm with the others on promoting Egrimm and getting their Porter, in exchange for investigating what Alric is up to and introducing Mira to Gunnars.

I don't want to sabotage Alric, he might be an ass but he seems to legitimately be trying to get his rank back by doing something worthy of it.

The best way to deal with that is to help him so he can't claim sole credit.
 
Elrisse seems pretty obviously the better pick to me than Stephen. We're explicitly looking for their old secrets, not their ability to make Perpetuals relevant to enchantments.

In the event that such skills become relevant, we can always revisit the matter later.
 
If we recruit an experiened and trusted Lady Magister Porter, I don't see that LM Egrimm will be cleared for any more than she will. So promoting him doesn't seem to get us much more, directly. If we can't come up with another 1-Favour option for payment or recruitment (any ideas?), I'd actually be quite interested in:

[ ] Plan Generous and Open-Handed
-[ ] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (free)
-[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
-[ ] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
-[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (1 Favour)

Overpay somewhat, like we did with Thorek. Show Mira that we really believe this is for the good of the world, and thus we don't quibble about little things like price.
 
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Making Egrimm an LM means he has more value as a minion since he now has rank. Also it means he would be firmly outside Alric's thumb even if he does return.
 
He'd be less of a 'minion', if he is one, as a Lord Magister. Remember how many job offers we got? If he really wants to get the hell away from Alric, he can have a whole colony in Lustria. Follow up on Johann's arm!
 
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Yes and? We'd still be his most likely choice of employment because not only did we get him his LM promotion, we also give him access to juicy elven secrets.
 
If we recruit an experiened and trusted Lady Magister Porter, I don't see that LM Egrimm will be cleared for any more than she will. So promoting him doesn't seem to get us much more, directly.
With Egrimm i believe we are also buying loyalty, the porter will remain loyal to the order, Egrimm might be willing to let us learn something they want to keep secret or only give us the practical benefits instead of the actual mechanics behind.

Even if that does not end up happening, i like Egrimm and this should very neatly put him permanently outside Alrics reach, no matter what happens.
 
If we recruit an experiened and trusted Lady Magister Porter, I don't see that LM Egrimm will be cleared for any more than she will. So promoting him doesn't seem to get us much more, directly. If we can't come up with another 1-Favour option for payment or recruitment (any ideas?), I'd actually be quite interested in:

[ ] Plan Generous and Open-Handed
-[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
-[ ] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
-[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (1 Favour)

Overpay somewhat, like we did with Thorek. Show Mira that we really believe this is for the good of the world, and thus we don't quibble about little things like price.
Unlike Thorek, we are already buying their attention on the project, and not what they can fit in around other obligations. Explicitly so in fact, that's the whole basis of this negotiation.
 
Maybe. I'm not sure if, after Alric, fairly blatant attempts to win his loyalty is exactly what makes Egrimm tick.
I don't want to sabotage Alric, he might be an ass but he seems to legitimately be trying to get his rank back by doing something worthy of it.

The best way to deal with that is to help him so he can't claim sole credit.
Yep, that'd be a better, and pro-social move. But we can leave that for now.

As for what we buy, I would indeed like some other odd-favour options.
 
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Three pages in, and I'm surprised no one suggested arranging a ' very unfortunate and completely unconnected with any of the Colleges accident' for Alric and see how many favors we could get from that.
 
...Perhaps because we're not in the habit of murdering people simply for our convenience? (And if that doesn't convince you, especially not trying to murder very hard to kill people whose Wind no-sells a lot of our concealment tricks).
 
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Way i see it, Alric is practically fishing for "1 Great Deed", which isn't bad on its own and it's something Mathilde could technically do as well... if it wasn't for those pesky commitments, responsability and the fact that the threshold for Great Deeds is probably 50% higher for our order.

It's a system that works for him, and apparently it works like this, he abandons his college, goes hunting for rumours (probably has some kind of network), unearths some conspiracy or monster, confident that he has the firepower to deal with it, does so and then comes back triumphant.

"Oh! Magister Alric once again saves the day out of nowhere, that's the kind of guy we want in charge of the wizards!"

At this point he has already invested a few turns in this, so if we can figure out what his plan is and what he is fighting, we can come in at the last moment, and instead of "Alric the hero" we have "oh, another conspiracy dismantled by the Grey Order, third one this decade, apparently a few members of the light order were there too", and he has to start over because shared credit it's not enough to get his position back.
 
...Perhaps because we're not in the habit of murdering people simply for our convenience?

Ah, I was joking. Forgot to add a smile.
… Also, who said anything about murder? Not me. "An accident". It happened by itself. Alric has only himself to blame, really. Besides, we have eyewitnesses who can confirm we weren't in the same province when it happened.
 
Three pages in, and I'm surprised no one suggested arranging a ' very unfortunate and completely unconnected with any of the Colleges accident' for Alric and see how many favors we could get from that.
We are not that stupid or suicidal, sabotage can be seen as only in college rivalry. A assassination attempt is a whole not her business especially on a former head of a college.
 
Detailed analysis below:

[ ] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (free)

The default no-cost option. Probably not worth taking on its own, as it would be rather a waste of an option to do it.

[ ] Lord Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (1 Favour)

I don't like this option. We've already interfered with Egrimm's career, and he's low-key upset about that. Now, so far it's unlikely to amount to much, as he seems much more happy to be free of Alric, then annoyed at our taking him without asking. However I very much doubt that he would appreciate us getting him a promotion as a political maneuver. He seems the proud sort that is upset that his talents have not been acknowledged with the rank he deserves. However that same pride would likely chafe at being given his rank not because he earned it, but because of the same sort of political games that kept it from him in the first place. If Mira's so much better than Alric, and if the project succeeds, then he'll likely get this soon enough on his own merits, and be all the better for it.

[ ] Choirmaster Stephen (2 Favours)

While this doesn't seem as immediately useful as the other options, I think that we shouldn't overlook the potential importance of super-enchanting, given that super-enchanting is essentially the entirety of the waystone project's end-goal. But honestly this would not give us the seat at the table we need.

[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)

Probably the most important pick in my opinion, given we're really here for information, and she has the information we need. This is what would get us a seat at the table as... not necessarily equals, but at least as somebody who cannot easily be ignored and sidelined. Probably the best pick.

[ ] Lady Magister Mira (4 Favours)
This is prestigious, but honestly reeks of overambition, as the prestige is the only benefit I can see that comes with this, that doesn't come with cheaper picks. Plus if Mira's here with us, then she's less likely to be able to prevent Alric's own political games, which is potentially a loss condition for our light college participation. Not worth it.



Favours:
[ ] Denounce Alric (1 Favour)
[ ] Sabotage Alric (2 Favours)

One thing to keep in mind when deciding what to do is that Alric has been switching on-and-off with Mira for quite a while now, and she's willing to try to get a grey LM to actively sabotage Alric. That speaks to an alarming ability for Alric to sneak his ways back into the halls of power. Quite frankly, I suspect that sooner or later Alric will manage to oust Mira once more, and take back command. So we don't want to do anything that'll create an irreparable rift with Alric, should he take power once more. That rules out openly denouncing Alric, and sabatoging him, as both would open a rift that's difficult to cover up and ignore later on


[ ] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)

Investigation is less problematic however, as Alric can probably play politics well enough to not make a public scene of it if he catches us. He won't like us for it, but he'll probably keep it quiet and not put the empire's two anti-chaos orders at each other's throats.

[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (1 Favour)

One thing to consider is that this option probably carries a lot more impact than you might think. This isn't just us making introductions, and letting people figure things out from there on their own. This is the single greatest dwarf-friend since Sigmar himself telling the dwarves that the light order is trustworthy. We're the sort of person they tell grudge-worthy secrets about their gods, and would tell deeper secrets about souls than any others could give, solely based on our reputation. If we make this introduction, the Guardians will almost certainly tell far more than they would in any other circumstances. This could potentially be good, as so long as the light college remains empire aligned this means more anti-chaos stuff all around. However should the light order prove unworthy - say Alric playing politics with the secrets should he get back in, or a chaos infiltrator stealing them - then we have big problems. So this one comes down to how much you trust the LO.


[ ] Permanent access to KAU (1 Favour)
Not really a big political cost, but it really impacts the ability to get the library up and running. Potentially worth it however. Much more personal cost though.

TLDR: LM Elrisse gets us the best seat at the metaphorical table, investigating alric is something we wanted to do anyways - which makes it the best sort of price to pay - and getting Egrimm promoted is unlikely to be appreciated by him, given that similar political games stopped him from getting LM in the first place. So plan like below:

[] Plan Simple Transaction
-[] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
-[] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
 
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Detailed analysis below:

[ ] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (free)

The default no-cost option. Probably not worth taking on its own, as it would be rather a waste of an option to do it.

[ ] Lord Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (1 Favour)

I don't like this option. We've already interfered with Egrimm's career, and he's low-key upset about that. Now, so far it's unlikely to amount to much, as he seems much more happy to be free of Alric, then annoyed at our taking him without asking. However I very much doubt that he would appreciate us getting him a promotion as a political maneuver. He seems the proud sort that is upset that his talents have not been acknowledged with the rank he deserves. However that same pride would likely chafe at being given his rank not because he earned it, but because of the same sort of political games that kept it from him in the first place. If Mira's so much better than Alric, and if the project succeeds, then he'll likely get this soon enough on his own merits, and be all the better for it.

[ ] Choirmaster Stephen (2 Favours)

While this doesn't seem as immediately useful as the other options, I think that we shouldn't overlook the potential importance of super-enchanting, given that super-enchanting is essentially the entirety of the waystone project's end-goal. But honestly this would not give us the seat at the table we need.

[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)

Probably the most important pick in my opinion, given we're really here for information, and she has the information we need. This is what would get us a seat at the table as... not necessarily equals, but at least as somebody who cannot easily be ignored and sidelined. Probably the best pick.

[ ] Lady Magister Mira (4 Favours)
This is prestigious, but honestly reeks of overambition, as the prestige is the only benefit I can see that comes with this, that doesn't come with cheaper picks. Plus if Mira's here with us, then she's less likely to be able to prevent Alric's own political games, which is potentially a loss condition for our light college participation. Not worth it.



Favours:
[ ] Denounce Alric (1 Favour)
[ ] Sabotage Alric (2 Favours)

One thing to keep in mind when deciding what to do is that Alric has been switching on-and-off with Mira for quite a while now, and she's willing to try to get a grey LM to actively sabotage Alric. That speaks to an alarming ability for Alric to sneak his ways back into the halls of power. Quite frankly, I suspect that sooner or later Alric will manage to oust Mira once more, and take back command. So we don't want to do anything that'll create an irreparable rift with Alric, should he take power once more. That rules out openly denouncing Alric, and sabatoging him, as both would open a rift that's difficult to cover up and ignore later on


[ ] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)

Investigation is less problematic however, as Alric can probably play politics well enough to not make a public scene of it if he catches us. He won't like us for it, but he'll probably keep it quiet and not put the empire's two anti-chaos orders at each other's throats.

[ ] Introduction to the Order of Guardians (1 Favour)

One thing to consider is that this option probably carries a lot more impact than you might think. This isn't just us making introductions, and letting people figure things out from there on their own. This is the single greatest dwarf-friend since Sigmar himself telling the dwarves that the light order is trustworthy. We're the sort of person they tell grudge-worthy secrets about their gods, and would tell deeper secrets about souls than any others could give, solely based on our reputation. If we make this introduction, the Guardians will almost certainly tell far more than they would in any other circumstances. This could potentially be good, as so long as the light college remains empire aligned this means more anti-chaos stuff all around. However should the light order prove unworthy - say Alric playing politics with the secrets should he get back in, or a chaos infiltrator stealing them - then we have big problems. So this one comes down to how much you trust the LO.


[ ] Permanent access to KAU (1 Favour)
Not really a big political cost, but it really impacts the ability to get the library up and running. Potentially worth it however. Much more personal cost though.

TLDR: LM Elrisse gets us the best seat at the metaphorical table, investigating alric is something we wanted to do anyways - which makes it the best sort of price to pay - and getting Egrimm promoted is unlikely to be appreciated by him, given that similar political games stopped him from getting LM in the first place.

[X] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
[X] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
There is a Moratorium so no voting
 
I quite enjoyed the update, and feel the need to do something I haven't done in a while. Break the update down and react to it piece by piece:
Altdorf's Southbank is one of the most wealthy and prestigious neighbourhoods in Altdorf, and it is one engaged in a very slow and genteel war where the ancient and somewhat crumbling abodes of many old-money families are being encroached upon by the relentless spread of upper-class commercial interests catering to wealthy and influential visitors to Altdorf. In this the old money have found a rather unusual advantage, as the unseen presence of the Light College on the western edge of the Southbank distorts the streets nearest it to an even greater extent than the rest of Altdorf, rendering it all but impossible to navigate to those unfamiliar with it. Here has formed the heartland of families of aged but diminished fortunes, who cling all the tighter to a status they can no longer afford to maintain and so rely on an abode within a supernatural maze to deter creditors and developers.

Nestled within this odd neighbourhood is an equally odd tearoom, supplying exotic beverages at affordable prices to those who wish to be seen drinking them, who will staunchly refuse to acknowledge the middling quality of the drinks or the counterfeit crockery they are served in. The courtyard outside it is laid out in a triangular pattern radiating out from a central point, and most of its visitors would take the neatness of this pattern as a sign of how upmarket the business is pretending to be. It may be that nobody working here realizes why they feel so compelled to correct even the slightest crookedness in the layout, as they would lack the senses to perceive the immaterial Waystone in the middle of the pattern, and would be equally blind to the currents of Hysh being drawn in from the radiant sunlight and eddying unnervingly around misplaced furniture. All they would know is the subtle wrongness they would feel, and would correct it without ever knowing the source of that sensation.
I quite enjoy these descriptive tangents Boney goes on to describe the place and provide more flavor to the world. As far as I know, this is original worldbuilding? Strangely enough Altdorf doesn't get much definitive worldbuilding in WFRP 2E, there's lots of tips on how to make parts of Altdorf, but the city is too big to properly describe, so the sourcebooks tell you to make your own Altdorf. I think it should be noted that this city is incredibly flavorful, and I do love the glimpses Boney gives us into it.
In a shaded corner of this spiralling pattern sits the Magister Matriarch of the Light Order in all but name, and that two of the tables nearest to her are also in use despite others being available indicates a level of comfort around Wizards that is rare even in Altdorf. Also indicative is that you are meeting her here at all, in a public place quite close to her campus. No more must Lady Magister Mira lurk in the Tempelgarten twilight for her meetings, now she takes tea in clear view of the public with her allies. "Lady Magister," she greets as you approach, and instead of being surreptitiously side-eyed by the others, they openly and politely look over for long enough to acknowledge your presence, as seeing and being seen is as much a purpose of this place as the tea is.
A public statement eh? It also seems like Mira has been.... defrosted a little bit? I got a bit of a closed off vibe to her from the first meeting with Mathilde, and Mathilde seemed to be a bit on edge, but the two of them seem a lot more comfortable here. It could be good background rolls or it could be that Mira's just satisfied with the current goings on.
"Please. Tea, Lady Magister?"

"Blue, if they have it."

"Dark for me, water for my guest."

---

"You've been getting yours from Tileans, I take it?" You nod as Mira leads you into the back room. "The variety of tea the Tileans call 'blue', the Cathayans call 'water'. Of course, most Imperial tea-drinkers who have adopted that style of naming teas don't realize it's based on the Cathayan understanding of the Winds." You close the door with a click behind you. "Now, let's talk business."
Ah, I see that Boney's using some of the new Cathay lore:
Cathay has a completely different understanding of the Winds of Magic, which is expected since they didn't get their knowledge from the Old Ones, Slann or Elves. Their conception and philosophies of the Winds are entirely based on the observations, experience and philosophies of the Dragon Emperor and Moon Empress, which results in a very different paradigm. For one, they call the winds the "Eight Elemental Winds". The Winds are the same as in the west, but they have different names as well as different "themes":

Spirit
Darkness
Water
Stone
Wood
Light
Fire
Metal

The odd thing is that Azyr was confirmed to be Stone, which indicates a very different understanding of the Wind in Cathay. Some are obvious, Fire, Metal, Light and Darkness. Spirit is almost certainly Shyish. Can't really tell which of Water and Wood is Ghur or Ghyran.
Cathay's understanding of the Winds is displayed above. Water is either Ghyran or Ghur, although I'm pretty sure it's Ghyran at this point. "Blue" probably refers to the color of Water, and it was called that because of the earthiness of the tea matching the feeling of Ghyran? I think it's an incredibly neat way of adopting the new Cathay lore in a natural way tbh.
"If the Light Order wanted to pretend they were all autodidacts in the style of Volans, it should have chosen a less exotic building style. I aim to sit us at a table where Hoeth and Thungni already have seats. We must meet their antes with our own, and ours have lineages to match theirs. Let us bring Tahoth Trisheros to the table."
I don't know what Trisheros means in this case, but Total War Warhammer has this:

Great Incantation of Tahoth

Once invoked, the God of scholars reveals secrets even lost to the Mortuary Cult. Due to Tahoth's summons, souls are called more freely from their realm.

It seems that Tahoth is the Nehekharan God of Scholars.
[ ] Choirmaster Stephen (2 Favours)
Many Light Wizards can lead a choir, but very few can lead them for the weeks at a time it takes for the most potent of enchantments.
[ ] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
The Porter equivalent of the Light Order, Lady Magister Elrisse's loyalty to the Order and to the Empire is unimpeachable, and she is cleared for more access to information than any other living Light Wizard.
As a reminder of who these people are, Choirmaster Stephen was one of the people who taught us enchanting at the College and he was the one who gave us the enchanted Candle that purges poison and disease. Lady Magister Elrisse was one of the options for joining us in Karag Dum alongside her disciple Magister Verspasian Kant.

That name might not mean much to you guys, but Verspasian is the canonical "modern day" Patriarch of the Light Order. He's very talented and had a rivalry with Horstmann that turned sour once it turned out that Horstmann was a chaos worshipper. I hope things turn out better in this universe, because I sure do love "rivalries".

Conclusion: Excellent update, look forward to getting more. I like the favor trading system used, simple and concise. I'm definitely voting for Order of Guardians and Investigation and getting Horstmann to LM and getting Elrisse.
 
[ ] Lord Magister Egrimm van Horstmann (1 Favour)

I don't like this option. We've already interfered with Egrimm's career, and he's low-key upset about that. Now, so far it's unlikely to amount to much, as he seems much more happy to be free of Alric, then annoyed at our taking him without asking. However I very much doubt that he would appreciate us getting him a promotion as a political maneuver. He seems the proud sort that is upset that his talents have not been acknowledged with the rank he deserves. However that same pride would likely chafe at being given his rank not because he earned it, but because of the same sort of political games that kept it from him in the first place. If Mira's so much better than Alric, and if the project succeeds, then he'll likely get this soon enough on his own merits, and be all the better for it.
I don't agree with this analysis at all. Egrimm feels that he's already earned the rank and is being suppressed by Alric, and that Alric is doing this to order him around as a minion - if we get him what he thinks he's already due, he'll be happy.

I also don't know where you're getting the idea that Egrimm is unhappy with our taking him on. Just this very update, Mira indicates otherwise:
"Not at all, it's always a delight to meet with such a rising star, especially one who is taking such good care of our Egrimm. He seems more himself now than I've ever seen him.
 
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