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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Weirdo said:
Honestly Myrmidia makes some sense as a Ranald Daughter, mixing Protector and Healer and getting Civilization makes some sense, I'd just wonder which of the 2 she would be, more like Ranald or more like Shallya
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Myrmidia already has some myths about her being the daughter of Verena, sister to Shallya, which is kind of awkward considering she should be the children's aunt.

Then again, the fact that Shallya and Ranald had children is so well hidden only now we learn about it does raise the option of Verena and Morr doing a favor for their daughter Shallya and pretending Myrmidia is their daughter instead, like when your too young a daughter get pregnant in a scandalous affair with some handsome rogue that you don't approve of and both you and they don't want the neighborhood to know for various reasons.

mmm...
 
Oh, I didn't realize Myrmidia had divine parents, still possible, just much less so I guess (though I suppose it makes sense if Myrmidians never wanted people to know that she was the daughter of the God of Thieves and Liars)

Halthea makes sense and is luckily immediately useful, I'm just unsure about the second possibility, I doubt Boney would make it unsolvable if we just thought about it the right way, so there must be a good way to figure this out

Salyak would be a possibility if not for her probably being the Widow's daughter. Other than that the list of gods on the wiki seems to come up short as far as immediately obvious candidates for a daughter
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Stealth focused characters are a touch unusual anyway. Outside of the DE and the Skaven, I can only really think of Oxyotl and arguably Alith Anar?
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Kazrak, arguably.

JowKeen said:
Points all that violence of mankind on errantry wars against the enemies of mankind, except for when they fight Araby.
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In contrast to what they were based on, the Crusade in Warhammer was fairly benevolent. An expansionist tyrant allied with the Skaven and named after the bad guy in Aladdin united Araby by force and then invaded Estalia and Tilea unprovoked, and when he was repulsed by the combined forces of the Old World, Knights of Bretonnia and the Empire landed on Araby, made contact with the locals, and fought alongside them to overthrow the tyrant.
 
Esmerelda maybe? Shallya's demeanor and goals, but halfling culture with all the "borrowing" that implies.

It's a reach, but would be funny if we just rode back to K8P and found a daughter right there
 
You know rereading the first few pages of this thread there are some pretty funny things, like one of the plans that majorly contributed to Mathilde, giving her the brave trait, her interest in enchanting and the snake hunted issue was plan "cute is justice"

Or that Mathilde's name was decided by a dice roll after a tie. Praise Ranald.
 
Woltaire said:
could you cite some evidence for that they treat them the same cause wikis say nothing about that?
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WFRP 2e: Realm of the Ice Queen, page 81
After the Lubjanko (see The Lubjanko on page 85) fell into disuse as a place of healing, the disenfranchised Salyakarin Priests commissioned the Shallyan temple at Couronne for monies to construct a mission in Kislev.
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Woltaire said:
thank you for citing it but that to me doesn't suggest that they are the same just that they work closely together
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No one is ever turned away from the Shallyan Mission, but anyone healed of their wounds or sickness is expected to place a coin in every Temple of Shallya they pass from then on. No matter its official title, most Kislevites stubbornly refer to the Mission as "The Temple of Salyak", and there has been significant pressure from locals for the Shallyans to accept traditional, thus better, Salyakarin values.
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I've been musing briefly on army alignment lately. For those who don't know, on the tabletop, Armies are split into three "Alignments". Forces of Order, Forces of Destruction and Non-Aligned Forces. These aren't actualy morality alignment or anything. Just because something is Order doesn't mean they're good people. Order just means you want the world to go on and you're opposed to Destruction. Destruction means you want either total domination or total destruction. Non-Aligned means you can work with either force, you're flexible.

The system is primarily made so you can deterimne the degree of trust between different armies in "Alliances". If you're from the same alignment, the Alliance is "Trusted Allies". If one of the forces are "Unaligned" then it's "Suspicious Allies". If the alliance is between Order and Destruction, it's "Desperate Allies". If Skaven or Dark Elves are involved it's a "Fragile Alliance" which means the alliance gets weaker with time (specifically with bad rolls). The alignments are:

Forces of Order: Empire, Bretonnia, High Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarves, Lizardmen.
Forces of Destruction: Greenskins, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Beastmen.
Non-Aligned: Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms.

The system is an abstraction, but I don't think it's super reflective of the lore, which makes sense I guess. They wanted to make a system that would be loreful but also balance it out, and they wouldn't be accounting for every single interaction going on. It's the players' job to make a justificaiton for why this force and that force work together.

What puzzles me is Ogre Kingdoms in Non-Aligned but Greenskins in Destruction. The two forces are really not that different at all. The only difference is that the Ogres like eating more than the Greenskins, and Greenskins like fighting more than the Ogres. They're just as likely to fight the Forces of Destruction as the Forces of Order, and they have acted as mercenaries to the Forces of Order occasionally. Do they desire total destruction/total domination? No. If everything is destroyed, that means the Greenskins have nothing to fight. If they have total control, that means they have nothing to fight. Neither option is desirable.
 
Codex said:
What puzzles me is Ogre Kingdoms in Non-Aligned but Greenskins in Destruction. The two forces are really not that different at all. The only difference is that the Ogres like eating more than the Greenskins, and Greenskins like fighting more than the Ogres. They're just as likely to fight the Forces of Destruction as the Forces of Order, and they have acted as mercenaries to the Forces of Order occasionally. Do they desire total destruction/total domination? No. If everything is destroyed, that means the Greenskins have nothing to fight. If they have total control, that means they have nothing to fight. Neither option is desirable.
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It's because Ogres are capable of being bribed with promises of gold and food to fight for whoever. This means that they're as likely to work for the Empire as they are to pillage it and eat its citizens. Greenskins are much less likely to accept a mercenary relationship.
 
Codex said:
What puzzles me is Ogre Kingdoms in Non-Aligned but Greenskins in Destruction. The two forces are really not that different at all. The only difference is that the Ogres like eating more than the Greenskins, and Greenskins like fighting more than the Ogres. They're just as likely to fight the Forces of Destruction as the Forces of Order, and they have acted as mercenaries to the Forces of Order occasionally. Do they desire total destruction/total domination? No. If everything is destroyed, that means the Greenskins have nothing to fight. If they have total control, that means they have nothing to fight. Neither option is desirable.
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If greenskins have total control they still have greenskins to fight.
 
notanautomaton said:
It's because Ogres are capable of being bribed with promises of gold and food to fight for whoever. This means that they're as likely to work for the Empire as they are to pillage it and eat its citizens. Greenskins are much less likely to accept a mercenary relationship.
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That is true, but the Tomb Kings cannot be bribed either, and they're Non-Aligned too. Non-Aligned is there so that you can fight alongside both factions while only being "Suspicious", and not "Desperate". I think that fits the Greenskins more than Destruction, where they're "Trusted Allies" with Chaos and Vampires for some reason.
 
Codex said:
What puzzles me is Ogre Kingdoms in Non-Aligned but Greenskins in Destruction. The two forces are really not that different at all. The only difference is that the Ogres like eating more than the Greenskins, and Greenskins like fighting more than the Ogres. They're just as likely to fight the Forces of Destruction as the Forces of Order, and they have acted as mercenaries to the Forces of Order occasionally. Do they desire total destruction/total domination? No. If everything is destroyed, that means the Greenskins have nothing to fight. If they have total control, that means they have nothing to fight. Neither option is desirable.
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I mean, Ogres are famous the world over as mercenaries that only sometimes renege on contracts.

Greenskins are basically the defining enemy of Sigmar, the Dwarfs, arguably the Empire in general, Bretonnia, etc.
 
Codex said:
That is true, but the Tomb Kings cannot be bribed either, and they're Non-Aligned too. Non-Aligned is there so that you can fight alongside both factions while only being "Suspicious", and not "Desperate". I think that fits the Greenskins more than Destruction, where they're "Trusted Allies" with Chaos and Vampires for some reason.
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The Tomb Kings have a single alignment, and that is 'don't touch my stuff.' They are capable of allying with both factions, but as more of an 'against a third group' than 'for a common goal.'
 
The Tomb Kings are capable of good judgement, mercy, and acting based on general moral principles (from thousands of years ago). As it happens, you don't need to have meat on your bones to think that Chaos is bad, even if it hampers your inter-army coordination with the locals. It's just that that hampering can't really be glossed over; mindless skeletons can't instinctively tell friend from foe, even if they'll accurately follow someone's orders to only stab certain beings and not others, and most breathing things aren't going to be comfortable getting close enough to them for that to be an issue.
 
notanautomaton said:
The Tomb Kings have a single alignment, and that is 'don't touch my stuff.' They are capable of allying with both factions, but as more of an 'against a third group' than 'for a common goal.'
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The Greenskins also have a single alignment, and that is "Fight Everything". By that definition, perhaps they shouldn't even be in Destruction, since that means they would align with forces that they would normally fight. The only group that Greenskins reliably ally with are other Greenskins, and considering the Animosity rule they also turn on each other a lot of the time on top of that. I also think the Greenskins, in both Storm of Chaos and End Times, fought against Archaon because they didn't want the world to end.
 
Codex said:
The Greenskins also have a single alignment, and that is "Fight Everything". By that definition, perhaps they shouldn't even be in Destruction, since that means they would align with forces that they would normally fight. The only group that Greenskins reliably ally with are other Greenskins, and considering the Animosity rule they also turn on each other a lot of the time on top of that. I also think the Greenskins, in both Storm of Chaos and End Times, fought against Archaon because they didn't want the world to end.
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The Greenskins are expansionist the Tomb Kings are not. As much as an OOC name like 'Destruction' cam mean something, it is not about the inner lives of the people who hold it but about how they impact the world. Ogres either eat you if you come close to their homes or they work as mercs, Orcs are part of an invasive alien echosystem that goes all over the place and can only be killed with fire.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Greenskins are expansionist the Tomb Kings are not. As much as an OOC name like 'Destruction' cam mean something, it is not about the inner lives of the people who hold it but about how they impact the world. Ogres either eat you if you come close to their homes or they work as mercs, Orcs are part of an invasive alien echosystem that goes all over the place and can only be killed with fire.
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Page 21 Tomb Kings 8th Edition Army Book:

"2522 IC to Present: Settra the Imperishable embarks upon his great purge and begins a new age of conquest, seeking to enlarge his realm to encompass the entire world. The armies of Nehekhara mass behind him and thus the great expansion begins."

Page 23 Ogre Kingdoms 8th Edition Army Book:

"2521 IC A New Migration: The Ogres, having grown ever more numerous and wealthy under the rule of Greasus Goldtooth, find their population is becoming too large for the Mountains of Mourn. As the Fire Mouth erupts, Greasus orders the conquering of new lands and soon the heavy footfalls of marching Ogres is heard throughout many realms."
 
Andres110 said:
The greenskins don't think like that. They want to fight and win against everything that isn't green and that's as far as their motivations and actions go.
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Apparently, the reason Grimgor beat the shit out of Archaon in Storms of Chaos but let him live is so that he can keep fighting him. Boney expressed the stupidity of that act before, but that's what happened in canon, and the alignment system is a canon system.
 
Codex said:
Page 21 Tomb Kings 8th Edition Army Book:

"2522 IC to Present: Settra the Imperishable embarks upon his great purge and begins a new age of conquest, seeking to enlarge his realm to encompass the entire world. The armies of Nehekhara mass behind him and thus the great expansion begins."

Page 23 Ogre Kingdoms 8th Edition Army Book:

"2521 IC A New Migration: The Ogres, having grown ever more numerous and wealthy under the rule of Greasus Goldtooth, find their population is becoming too large for the Mountains of Mourn. As the Fire Mouth erupts, Greasus orders the conquering of new lands and soon the heavy footfalls of marching Ogres is heard throughout many realms."
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Neither are on the scale of Chaos (constant looming existential threat), Orcs (they are the founding danger of every state in the old world), the Undead (again existential threat to the world). If you were minded to break up 'Normal Vampire Counts' from 'Nagash' I guess you could call the former Neutral and not Destruction, but they still spread around Dhar all over the place, as the orcs spread spores and Chaos does corruption.
 
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