Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[opalbucket]

The inconsistency can be seen as a weakness, and I can see how it would manifest as one for a lot of people, but these are inconsistencies that are very much present in a lot of historical sources and need to be parsed and examined in that light to get any meaningful truth out of them. That the Warhammer setting has managed to unintentionally replicate the unreliability of historical sources with the layering of canons is a big part of the enjoyment I get out of the setting. Though I certainly understand why not everyone would be willing and/or able to approach it from a detached historiographical perspective.

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I can appreciate enjoying that sort of ambiguousness some of the time, for sure, and enjoy playing with it myself. When I ran a WFRPG campaign in Marienburg (and to a lesser extent in the dumb quest I should be working on right now) I got a lot of mileage out of the fact that different versions of the lore have the Wasteland as sometimes a victim of Imperial aggression conquered violently almost a millenia after Sigmar's reign that merely asserted it's historically righteous independence, but other times as having been descended from a wholly different tribe which joined Sigmar willingly, only to stab their ancient allies in the back in a selfish bid for power. Using those two versions of the canon as differing national myths felt pretty interesting.

I generally prefer settings that do that intentionally, though, like TES. For every instance of it being cool in Warhammer, there's at least one where it comes across as the writers advancing something pretty dubious. The biggest example is probably the way mutants are treated in the setting. Very early on, there was more ambiguity about how evil and omnipresent Chaos really was at its core, and how much "corruption" was just puritanical moral panic within the Empire. And this was in the context of the early setting being mostly about counter-cultural conflict. So mutants standing in for punks/LGBT people/communists was fine.

However, when Chaos was made a more straightforward evil, they failed to fully excise the coding for mutants in Imperial society. As a result some parts of the setting, presented as facts rather than matters of opinion, come across as deeply authoritarian. There's a ton of WFRPG content that amounts to "this faction/person with progressive beliefs is actually unwittingly/willingly a chaos worshiper, and must be killed!" ...without it being written as satire, because that is the logic the setting leads you to. Which I think, as much as I love a lot of the creativity in those books, is a little chilling.

The exception to all of the above waffling is, yeah, the Pygmies. There is a very faint defence that could be made that what little canon there was about them drew from actual Black British culture and surprisingly deep cuts into Reggae instead of being entirely made of worst kind of caricatures, but honestly the best thing that can be said about all that is they stopped doing it in the 80s.

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There's a really fascinating piece on an old-ish Warhammer blog that does a dive into the Pygmies from a perspective of racial politics - I'd absolutely recommend reading it if you haven't and want to learn a little more about how they were handled, for good and ill.

I think what really gets to me with the Pygmies is actually that you're not quite correct - as it talks about, GW made a couple attempts to go back to and "redeem" them as a setting element. Even right up until the 2000s, there were vague plans to reinvent them as a race of jungle halflings in post-satire Warhammer. GW is always looking for ways to "fix" their goofs, without ever outright admitting something doesn't fit anymore, or that it was a mistake and should be apologized for, and cutting the cancer outright to avoid the unfortunate implications they've created.

 

[Boney]

I generally prefer settings that do that intentionally, though, like TES. For every instance of it being cool in Warhammer, there's at least one where it comes across as the writers advancing something pretty dubious. The biggest example of that of all is the way mutants are treated in the setting. Very early on, there was more ambiguity about how evil and omnipresent Chaos really was at its core, and how much "corruption" was just puritanical moral panic within the Empire. And this was in the context of the early setting being mostly about counter-cultural conflict. So mutants standing in for punks/LGBT people/communists was fine.

However, when Chaos was made a more straightforward evil, they failed to fully excise the coding for mutants in Imperial society. As a result some parts of the setting, presented as facts rather than matters of opinion, come across as deeply authoritarian. There's a ton of WFRPG content that amounts to "this faction/person with progressive beliefs is actually unwittingly/willingly a chaos worshiper, and must be killed!" ...without it being written as satire, because that is the logic the setting leads you to. Which I think, as much as I love a lot of the creativity in those books, is a little chilling.

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Yeah, the terrible thing about the mutant question is that there's quite a lot of setting it up as a deliberately ambiguous 'is this a genuine threat or a moral panic' scenario that is actually set up quite well with skill and care. But all of that utterly implodes as soon as someone puts mutation mechanics in the RPG and whoops, it turns out that every mutant is just a ticking time bomb just waiting to go Beastman or Chaos Spawn, and suddenly all the reasonable voices of moderation are retroactively transformed into either naive dupes or fifth columnists. And infuriatingly it doesn't even need to be consistent, there can be five sets of rules where mutation is just a thing that happens, just cover it up or cut it off and your life continues as normal, and one set where it's the slipperiest of slopes, and it's that last one that will get signal boosted until it dominates the fandom. The Warhammer franchise seems very prone to these self-propagating Deep Lore Facts that arise from seemingly nowhere and spread throughout the fandom without ever being fact-checked, and between that and thematic leak-through from 40k it sometimes feels like a Sisyphean task to push back against people who have, through no fault of their own, ended up mistakenly believing things like that Wizards work exactly the same as Psykers, both mechanically and societally, and the Empire is an ancient, corrupt, creaking edifice of centralized tyranny where apocalypse is only kept at bay by the complete inversion of Blackstone's ratio. The world will die if a single witch goes free, better to burn ten innocent villagers than allow that! And no, that really isn't the case. One of the first info threadmarks I had to make, IIRC directly after 'what's a Sylvania?', was 'you will not get blammed by the Inquisition if someone shouts heretic'.

 

[Codex]

Habibi, if you're Khaleeji,

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I was about to respond to the whole post but then I thought better of it. I am in fact, quite aware that I'm fortunate in comparison to other countries that suffered colonisation, but that doesn't mean I can't feel kinship with those who got the short end of the stick and have strong feelings about it. Qatar wasn't crusaded in the Crusades (as far as I know) but I still have very strong feelings about the Crusades.

Second, I actually would appreciate if you used "Habibti" instead. I'm using she/her pronouns for the moment.

 

[Droman]

Second, I actually would appreciate if you used "Habibti" instead. I'm using she/her pronouns for the moment.

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My apologies, I will try to remember for the future. Samheena.

 

[Mopman43]

. The Warhammer franchise seems very prone to these self-propagating Deep Lore Facts that arise from seemingly nowhere and spread throughout the fandom without ever being fact-checked

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I feel like the popularity of Total War: Warhammer kinda didn't help with that. Because it became popular, you have the usual cottage industry springing up around it of people making youtube videos about Warhammer, and at that point for people watching the videos it's like getting everything from the wiki except there's no sources and stuff gets rephrased and misspoken a lot more*. And it only takes one video that gives the wrong misconception getting very popular to become immensely frustrating.

One extremely minor example that still drives me up a wall is that I've seen dozens of people on the subreddit claim that Azhag the Slaughterer has been dead for ages before the 'present date', and I just know that it was some guy's youtube video that started the whole thing.


*Without getting into genuine bad actors (Arch and all)

 

[Codex]

I'm following up on Forges of Nuln, and I have to say I get a weird feeling from the adventure book. The first two books were interesting in their own ways and had their own feeling, and I'm pretty sure the authors are different because neither adventure felt the same. The same thing applies to Forges of Nuln, and I'm not sure if it's a good thing in this case.

Spoiler: Rant on Forges of Nuln. TW//Cannibalism,Sexual harrasement, gross stuff

There are interesting things. The setting is decent, although I'm starting to get sick of page after page of descriptions of horrible smells and dung on the streets. The problem is that the author has the tendency to make nearly every character horrible in a unique way that is far worse then any of the previous Adventure Books, and for no rhyme for reason. For example, the book just casually tells you that the halfling cook in the ship you're on killed her husband, baked him into food and fed his corpse baked pie to her family and the girl her husband was cheating on her with. You would think this is relevant right? No, it has no bearing on the story. Even I find it hard to somehow tie that into the story.

But that's not the only example. Things like the Innkeeper in a particular tavern where it casually mentioned that he has a "son and nephew" (the son and nephew is the same person) and implied sexual harrasement coupled with gross descriptions. Even the main villains has ridiculously evocative descriptions for the stuff they do even though the PCs aren't likely to see behind the screen, like the book was designed to gross out the GM. This book is far worse about the "grimdark" than the other adventure books, and I'm not sure if I like it, particularly since I feel like if you're making horrible stuff happen, at least have a point to it or let it play to the story.

I think I prefer Warhammer when it doesn't dive off the cliff of grimdark setting. I'm fine with bad stuff happening if it serves a point, but man sometimes I feel like these authors just want to gross out the readers and revel in the horrific shit they write instead of trying to make some sort of commentary.

 

[opalbucket]

Yeah, the terrible thing about the mutant question is that there's quite a lot of setting it up as a deliberately ambiguous 'is this a genuine threat or a moral panic' scenario that is actually set up quite well with skill and care. But all of that utterly implodes as soon as someone puts mutation mechanics in the RPG and whoops, it turns out that every mutant is just a ticking time bomb just waiting to go Beastman or Chaos Spawn, and suddenly all the reasonable voices of moderation are retroactively transformed into either naive dupes or fifth columnists. And infuriatingly it doesn't even need to be consistent, there can be five sets of rules where mutation is just a thing that happens, just cover it up or cut it off and your life continues as normal, and one set where it's the slipperiest of slopes, and it's that last one that will get signal boosted until it dominates the fandom. The Warhammer franchise seems very prone to these self-propagating Deep Lore Facts that arise from seemingly nowhere and spread throughout the fandom without ever being fact-checked, and between that and thematic leak-through from 40k it sometimes feels like a Sisyphean task to push back against people who have, through no fault of their own, ended up mistakenly believing things like that Wizards work exactly the same as Psykers, both mechanically and societally, and the Empire is an ancient, corrupt, creaking edifice of centralized tyranny where apocalypse is only kept at bay by the complete inversion of Blackstone's ratio. The world will die if a single witch goes free, better to burn ten innocent villagers than allow that! And no, that really isn't the case. One of the first info threadmarks I had to make, IIRC directly after 'what's a Sylvania?', was 'you will not get blammed by the Inquisition if someone shouts heretic'.

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Fantasy was definitely undermined by the rapidly-escalating popularity of 40k in the 2000s and fans projecting their assumptions about that setting into it, and that in turn influencing the writers. I'm still frustrated with a lot of the retcons about the elves, on top of the portrayals of mutants and magic use in later novels... But to be fair to the fanbase, I don't think that feedback loop came from nowhere.

I think the "original sin" of Warhammer as a franchise, and the reason is developed a fandom that became captivated by the most authoritarian and absolutist interpretations of its setting(s), was because it was built as anti-authoritarian satirical fantasy that then tried to reform itself into more conventional dark fantasy. Pseudo-fascist imagery like the Empire's iron cross/totenkopf flag wasn't employed by a accident - early material wanted the Empire to be brazenly totalitarian, but not in a manner depicted as righteous, but farcically dysfunctional. It's like how very early on Karl Franz was a corrupt idiot who never fought and cared nothing for the common people. The conflict of the setting wasn't "good guys versus chaos", but rather "totalitarianism versus chaos", with the intent being that both sides are absurd. (Obviously, that was born of the Moorcock influence which was progressively abandoned.)

To increase its marketability, Games Workshop tried to change the setting to one where there are still shades of grey, but where it's basically a good versus evil conflict at its core. The "lawful" side went from being a force that would be better off destroyed or reformed beyond recognition, to one that is cruel and sometimes corrupt or incompetent but still fundamentally heroic and the only option representing normal life. And they made Karl Franz into a superhero who rides around on a griffon.

But they were unwilling to burn the setting down and start over, so aspects of the original nature of the conflict are still baked in to its foundations, creating strange contradictions at its heart. The background material tells you the Empire is authoritarian and cruel in various ways. The background material also tells you it's the best hope for mankind, asks you to overlook its flaws (but not those of its ideological enemies, who are unambiguously evil) and often encourages you to view the perpetrators of its regime as uncritically heroic and cool perspective characters.

The only way to consume the setting without any cognitive dissonance is to buy into that (albeit probably unintentional) reactionary subtext. Which is why fan interpretation drifts forever in that direction.

I don't say this with the intention of implying Warhammer is irredeemable or anything. I still love it tremendously, and think it has some of the most creative worldbuilding concepts and themes of any mainstream fantasy setting, especially compared to Age of Sigmar. But there are a lot of unfixable problems with it, too.

 

[LilyWitch]

I'm following up on Forges of Nuln, and I have to say I get a weird feeling from the adventure book. The first two books were interesting in their own ways and had their own feeling, and I'm pretty sure the authors are different because neither adventure felt the same. The same thing applies to Forges of Nuln, and I'm not sure if it's a good thing in this case.

Spoiler: Rant on Forges of Nuln. TW//Cannibalism,Sexual harrasement, gross stuff

There are interesting things. The setting is decent, although I'm starting to get sick of page after page of descriptions of horrible smells and dung on the streets. The problem is that the author has the tendency to make nearly every character horrible in a unique way that is far worse then any of the previous Adventure Books, and for no rhyme for reason. For example, the book just casually tells you that the halfling cook in the ship you're on killed her husband, baked him into food and fed his corpse baked pie to her family and the girl her husband was cheating on her with. You would think this is relevant right? No, it has no bearing on the story. Even I find it hard to somehow tie that into the story.

But that's not the only example. Things like the Innkeeper in a particular tavern where it casually mentioned that he has a "son and nephew" (the son and nephew is the same person) and implied sexual harrasement coupled with gross descriptions. Even the main villains has ridiculously evocative descriptions for the stuff they do even though the PCs aren't likely to see behind the screen, like the book was designed to gross out the GM. This book is far worse about the "grimdark" than the other adventure books, and I'm not sure if I like it, particularly since I feel like if you're making horrible stuff happen, at least have a point to it or let it play to the story.

I think I prefer Warhammer when it doesn't dive off the cliff of grimdark setting. I'm fine with bad stuff happening if it serves a point, but man sometimes I feel like these authors just want to gross out the readers and revel in the horrific shit they write instead of trying to make some sort of commentary.

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We do in fact know the exact writer to blame here. Bad news is that he was a super prolific rpg writer of the early 2000s and that wasn't his last WHFRPG book.

Robert J. Schwalb - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: Also this book is basically single handedly responcible for the Countess of Nuln's reputation in the fandom as an incompetant which I hate. Warhams has its, very big, issues with gender politics but its generally much better then this book about treating women rulers equally to their masculine counterparts.

 

[deathofrats0808]

One extremely minor example that still drives me up a wall is that I've seen dozens of people on the subreddit claim that Azhag the Slaughterer has been dead for ages before the 'present date', and I just know that it was some guy's youtube video that started the whole thing.

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While I wouldn't describe it as ages, Azhag is canonically dead by 2521 which is the canonical "present date" for Fantasy.

 

[Codex]

We do in fact know the exact writer to blame here. Bad news is that he was a super prolific rpg writer of the early 2000s and that wasn't his last WHFRPG book.

Robert J. Schwalb - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: Also this book is basically single handedly responcible for the Countess of Nuln's reputation in the fandom as an incompetant which I hate. Warhams has its, very big, issues with gender politics but its generally much better then this book about treating women rulers equally to their masculine counterparts.

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I was about to say something about Emmanuelle, but I wasn't sure if this guy pioneered her personality to be... that, or if she was always like that.

It's just the way in which the writing talks about the characters... Like, Emmanuelle is Karl's childhood friend, but apparently when he supports her, the book makes sure to say something like "some say she seduced him". Just so you know she's a woman, seduction has to be mentioned to indicate how she gained power.

 

[opalbucket]

I was about to say something about Emmanuelle, but I wasn't sure if this guy pioneered her personality to be... that, or if she was always like that.

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Emmanuelle's personality as a dubious femme fatale narcissist type was first established in Beasts in Velvet, a novel from the early 90s.

It's, uh, a lot. It might be the most of any piece of Warhammer media I've read, in fact.

 

[LilyWitch]

Huh. I wasn't aware of the earlier bad take on her. She does have good takes, Tamurkhan comes to mind of the top of my head, and I do feel that Forges of Nuln is a particularly bad take on her character.

 

[Codex]

More relevant to DL, I doubt Boney would portray Emmanuelle that way in particular. It's not like Boney strictly adheres to canon, and he puts his own take on characcters. Right now her dad Konstantin is the EC, and assuming her brother doesn't die like in Canon, Leos von Liebwitz is next in line. Even if she becomes EC, chances are she'll just be different. For one, instead of being Karl Franz's childhood friend, chances are she'll be Mandred's childhood friend, so there's a chance of butterflies.

I can still see a flawed Emmanuelle (but a less caricaturised one) purely based off her father's characterisation in DL. A bullheaded, stubborn man with no sense for subtelity and who is severely inflexible and proud. Not exactly the best role model.

 

[opalbucket]

Right now her dad Konstantin is the EC, and assuming her brother doesn't die like in Canon, Leos von Liebwitz is next in line.

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Spoiler: Uh... Spoilers for Beasts in Velvet.

That's not very likely. In the book, you learn that Leos is actually her sister, and that Emmanuelle abused her into adopting a male persona in public out of fear that she'd be more beautiful or desired then her because she's younger.

Also, said sister becomes a serial killer because of this. Yep. It's that trope.

 

[LilyWitch]

... well that's a good one to never touch with a ten foot pole.

 

[Codex]

Spoiler: Uh... Spoilers for Beasts in Velvet.

That's not very likely. In the book, you learn that Leos is actually her sister, and that Emmanuelle abused her into adopting a male persona in public out of fear that she'd be more beautiful or desired then her because she's younger.

Also, said sister becomes a serial killer because of this. Yep. It's that trope.

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Uh....

I don't think Boney's using that one.

 

[opalbucket]

Uh....

I don't think Boney's using that one.

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Well, I'm just saying in terms of the strict canon, that's the reason they didn't inherit instead of her. How that'd be adapted into the story of the quest would obviously be up to them - like, whether they'd want to reinterpret it as the public perception being true, do something different with the truth-as-written, or just retcon the character away completely to avoid it coming up at all.

 

[Codex]

Well, I'm just talking in terms of the strict canon, that's the reason they didn't inherit. How that'd be adapted into the story of the quest would obviously be up to them - like, whether they'd want to reinterpret it as the public perception being true, do something different with the truth-as-written, or just retcon the character away completely to avoid it coming up at all.

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I'm not sure if you saw this:

Canonicity (for Quest purposes)
Tier 1: The Quest itself is primary canon.
Tier 2: WoQM applies unless it violates Quest canon (which I assume it has or will at some point).
Tier 3: Army Books (6th+), WHFRPG 2e - reasonably safe to assume that the fluff in these is canon unless the Quest or WoQM says otherwise. Game mechanics should not be taken as canon.
Tier 4: Black Library, White Dwarf articles - canonish, but the QM may not be familiar with them and the details are likely to end up varying if they are used.
Tier 5: Licensed video games, Warhammer Armies Project, WHFRPG 3e & 4e - mostly only used for things that aren't otherwise covered in higher tiers, and by default are not canon.
Tier 6: Army Books (pre-6th), WHFRPG (1e) - the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone. May be looted for ideas from time to time but is usually completely incompatible.

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Generally novels and White Dwarf aren't guaranteed canon, and I'm willing to bet there are many novels that Boney hasn't read and might not decide to incorporate. This novel being made in the early 90's already puts it in a dubious category, because Boney doesn't like using pre 6th edition/pre 2nd edition RPG book lore.

 

[opalbucket]

I'm not sure if you saw this:

Generally novels and White Dwarf aren't guaranteed canon, and I'm willing to bet there are many novels that Boney hasn't read and might not decide to incorporate. This novel being made in the early 90's already puts it in a dubious category, because Boney doesn't like using pre 6th edition/pre 2nd edition RPG book lore.

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I've seen it, yeah. I brought it up because there's no mention of Leos or Emmanuelle having a brother at all outside of the novel, and I think an issue of White Dwarf which offers a synopsis/preview - so far as I know, all other writers have avoided them like an unpinned grenade, for reasons which are probably self-evident. So following that, it feels more likely that Leos just straight-up wouldn't exist, rather than being the one to inherit as you suggested. Since the only context they exist within canon is. That.

But again, there are different ways you could approach it, if you wanted to rehabilitate the concept.

 

[Rafin]

Maybe Boney just makes Leos a girl without all the subsequent bad stuff.

Or more likely, since neither were born yet at the time the Quest started, he just rolls for how many children the current EC has.

 

[Codex]

I've seen it, yeah. I brought it up because there's no mention of Leos or Emmanuelle having a brother at all outside of the novel, and I think an issue of White Dwarf which offers a synopsis/preview - so far as I know, all other writers have avoided them like an unpinned grenade, for reasons which are probably self-evident. So following that, it feels more likely that Leos just straight-up wouldn't exist, rather than being the one to inherit as you suggested. Since the only context they exist within canon is. That.

But again, there are different ways you could approach it, if you wanted to rehabilitate the concept.

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The reason I wanted to rehabilitate the concept was the wiki page I read said there was speculation about his sexuality and he refused women's advances, which got me excited because wow! canon warhammer gay character! Sure they kill people but that's not new in WHF.

Spoiler

And then I find out about that. I would be elated if Leos was trans, but no, she's bullied into presenting as male.

 

[LilyWitch]

The reason I wanted to rehabilitate the concept was the wiki page I read said there was speculation about his sexuality and he refused women's advances, which got me excited because wow! canon warhammer gay character! Sure they kill people but that's not new in WHF.

Spoiler

And then I find out about that. I would be elated if Leos was trans, but no, she's bullied into presenting as male.

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Spoiler

Given that 4e has made the cult of Rhya explicitly trans inclusive and afferming I could easily see the 4e Nuln book trying to rehabilitate the character. On the other hand given what they did to Katherin Todbringer they might double down on the vapid party princess characterisation of Emmanuel instead.

 

[opalbucket]

The reason I wanted to rehabilitate the concept was the wiki page I read said there was speculation about his sexuality and he refused women's advances, which got me excited because wow! canon warhammer gay character! Sure they kill people but that's not new in WHF.

Spoiler

And then I find out about that. I would be elated if Leos was trans, but no, she's bullied into presenting as male.

Click to shrink...

If it's any consolation, I was just as disappointed reading it as a teenager who was hyper excited about seeing that kind of stuff in Warhammer. Both from the initial impression, and what I thought could be going on before they revealed that, nope, it all sucks.

Spoiler

The only reason the character is named 'Leos' at all is actually as part of a twist for the murder mystery. Someone writes most of their name in blood on the wall as they're dying after she murders them, but it's upside down, so it looks like "5037" and the protagonists think it's a code. (Incidentally, this made playing Danganronpa for the first time 10 years later extremely funny.)

 

[Mopman43]

While I wouldn't describe it as ages, Azhag is canonically dead by 2521 which is the canonical "present date" for Fantasy.

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Right, but the way people talk about him you'd think they're confusing him with Gorbad.

(And in the context of TW:Warhammer, if it has any date at all, it's 2502, when Karl Franz is elected Emperor)

 

[Tasoli]

Brotherhood of Books​

It had become rare for Teclis to be back on Ulthan in the recent times. But he did visit as often as he could to keep abreast of happening on the homefront. And when he did, he tried to visit his brother and was glad to be able to catch him this time.

"Teclis" Tyrion said. "You are late, I was expecting you yesterday." He was seated on the work desk in his rooms going tought what looked like naval scouting reports.

"Work at the tower ran long, altough I am glad to see that you are keeping an eye for me" he said similing slightly.

Tyrion snorted in response. "It is rare to see you at home recently which is probably why your work has piled up on your absance."

"While true there is a lot of to be done and I did accomplish some things" he replied. "you look busy as well is it a bad time?"

"This is time sensitive I am afraid" true to his word he did look concerned. Barely even looking up from his desk as they conversed. "It will be a couple of hours yet, but I should be free this evening to catch up."

"Usual place?" Teclis walked around the room eyeing the shelves full of books, reports and diplomatic dispatches.

"Yes that is fine, You are here for tomorrow's ball right? If you have any other outsanding bussiness you should get them out of the way." Tyrion said absentmindedly.

"Not really, I was planning to rest actually." Teclis responded. "Unless you have something interesting?"

"Aside from the usual fare of the court that you are not interested you mean?" He asked. "Altough there is a couple of things. Wich you would know about if you had been around."

Teclis ignored the implied criticsm as It was an old argument between them. "Oh? Something from the court?"

Tyrion waved his hand towards his left without looking up. "Don't be like that now, Second Shelf there, It is from your pet humans so should be easy to find. I actually want your opinion on it"

"They are not pets" Teclis said as he wandered over the pointed shelf and exemined it. It did take him a moment to find what he tought his brother was talking about but he hesitated seeing same Reikspell name on the third shelf as well. Which roused his curiosity. His brother didn't care overmuch about anything that was not of Ulthan so seeing something from Empire on the othervise rather bare personal library was interesting. He plucked it from its place as well and wandered over the sofa. First looked like an academic paper supplanted with transcript, about Orc magic and was titled Waagh and Peace by M. Mathilde Weber (Grey), which had been on the shelf his brother pointed out and wondered why he hadn't seen it already while he had been at The Tower. Other was a book, its spine looked creased and pages looked slightly bent from frequent use and was titled, Travels of the Asarnil the Dragonlord by the same writer and seem to be an biography. Teclis did frown at the name as he tried to remember which Asarnil it was that would draw his brothers attention and taking another look at the writers name was what sparked the memory of the Exiled the Prince of Caledor.

"This is interesting" he couldn't help but comment.

"Is it?" Tyron asked. "Loremasters I have spoken insist that it is niche work an that they have better ways to stop those Orc Shamans but I want your opinion."

"I was actually talking about other book brother, It is rare for you to be interested in something like this." Teclis said.

Tyron looked up suprised with and almost owlish look on his face. "Oh that" he said. "Don't show that, Our dear Finubar has forbid importing those books of course it means everybody had to have one, quite the scandal really."

Teclis gave a humm at that. "Travels of Asarnil the Dragonlord, written by Mathilde Weber (J. Grey)' sounds riveting altough it begs the question why you are interested so much on him?"

"I am not, merely interesting to see our enemies from a different perspective." Tyron said rather unconvincingly to Teclis. "Tought you would be more interested on the magic."

"I am ofcourse." He said and made himself comfortable for another ten minutes for pleasantries. Before leaving with his brothers agreement to meet with him that evening.

Afterwards as he settled down to his own room for a couple hours of rest, he pulled the books and tought back on his time in the Empire, of Magnus and Volans. Sting of the loss had faded but he still sometimes wondered about how he would react were he to go back to Empire and seeing others in the place of his friends.

Still as he sat down for his reading he did sent a prayer to his friends. Their common legacy was thriving it seems and hoped that it would be enough. On a more pleasant tought If nothing else he was going to be able to needle his brother about Asarnil, he was not buying his brothers excuses considering the shape of the book. So he opened it and started reading the foreword from the Mathilde Weber about her meeting with famed exile.

Spoiler: A/N

Never read the novels about Teclis so sorry if they are Ooc. But I did wondered about the reason why he never visited Empire was. This scene popped out since our work should be reach Ulthan and ultimately Teclis eventually and it all came together.