WhiteNights
Notorious Phoneposter
- Pronouns
- She/Her
To not have Romance books in our library? Unthinkable!
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Can't help but think of another badass fantasy library when we talk about this: Candlekeep
[X] Order
[X] Distribution
The library contains a massive section devoted to the copying of books, with the intention of sending copied books to other major institutions of the forces of Order. Precision minded dwarves ensure that the copies are kept as close to the originals as possible.
This a suitable write-in @Boney? We talked before about how game-changing the printing press was, but scribe-dwarves probably come a close second!
[X] Order
[X] Distribution
The library contains a massive section devoted to the copying of books, with the intention of sending copied books to other major institutions of the forces of Order. Precision minded dwarves ensure that the copies are kept as close to the originals as possible.
This a suitable write-in @Boney? We talked before about how game-changing the printing press was, but scribe-dwarves probably come a close second!
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Public libraries are much older than the printing press. What we call a modern public library (the important difference being "funded by taxes") is admittedly much younger, but I'm pretty sure the Library here will be not be funded by taxes either. It'll either be Clan Angrund, or all the Clans (note that either way other residents of K8P, such as WEB-MAT or the Halflings would not be asked to contribute).
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Given that we probably won't get any additional information, here is my assessment on the options given:
Being able to store literally every written work and then some is not just overkill, but overkill to an insane and truly unreasonable degree. The Old World currently doesn't even have access to basic geographic facts about the far east or far west, let alone being able to source translated texts from there by the wagonload. If society ever reaches the point where anything like that is even remotely considerable, said society will also be easily able to just construct a second even grander library.
This is maybe the only one where I fear that "reasonable" for Dwarves doesn't much differ from "reasonable" for anyone else. A baseline Dwarven library of import is larger, more secure and better ordered than any contemporary Human library and it is magically enchanted with book protecting runes on top of that. But is it really any more comfortable than, say, the library in Altdorf?
Also look at the text. Most other options mention truly outlandish things, barely conceivable as physically possible without magic. But this stuff here. That's just a normal amount of awesome. Hell, it could be the description of any fancy shopping mall. Except, you know, with publicly accessible books.
So the pros and cons of this option are two sides of the same coin as I see it. On the one hand it might be the largest proportional improvement from baseline. Because while with the other options the Dwarven architects will entusiastically nod along when told to use even more of the budget for the thing they kinda wanted to do anyway, here they might well be going "She cares about what? Well, if she says so we'll just try to reallly really give her what she wants I guess" and go above and beyond on something they might otherwise barely have thought about. On the other hand that also means that we maybe won't see anything mind-boggingly insane by our own standards as players. Just, you know, an awesome comfortable library that's unprecedented in the Old World specifically, but whose other features (Dwarven size and security) still matter more to us than the one we chose to emphasize.
The main appeal I see for this from a different angle than the reasons I have for liking the other options. With everything else I am drawn by how I see the library from an IC viewpoint, if I were to actually insert myself in that universe and advocate for what I want to have constructed for me. But here I would be voting OOC for what it might do for the story. This option probably has the highest potential to lead to surprises and plot hooks, as well as bringing the struggle of the Gods to the screen and being the one that would most intrigue and involve Cython.
I am most torn about this one. A lot of arguments by other players were very convincing to me. Order is definitely vital to any library of considerable size. All else being equal this seems like the most important option. But I am not sure that all else is equal. I simply don't know if Dwarven "reasonable" amounts of Order aren't already more than enough, the way that Dwarven "reasonable" Capacity and Preservation are.
Another massive overkill, if not as massive as the capacity one. At least in Warhammer something like a Time of Woes calamity or a Hold subjugating Waaagh are not at all unprecedented. And while many other players emphasize that it's more important that the library actually serves people before it is sealed due to the fall of K8P, the idea that millennia from now during the second reconquest someone finds an intact library with priceless collections of ancient knowledge certainly appeals to me.
But, well, we already know that K8P's furniture storage was secure enough for the wooden items inside to be found intact. I can't imagine that our library will be less secure than that. Or even than the vaunted vault.
Beyond that, given that this is Warhammer, even this overkill of Preservation is not enough anyway. It probably wouldn't survive an End Times like event, which might well happen within the next couple centuries. And surviving any less total extinction events (of the kind that just eradicates all Order races from the face of the earth) isn't really all that useful either, for all that vampire society might eventually delight in it. And it doesn't even protect from more internal societal calamities or sabotage like Chaos corruption and the like.
The main appeal of this one for me is that it increases the chance of eventually convincing even Dwarven Guilds and mages of differing traditions to store written knowledge here for posteriority. But it only increases the chance, it doesn't do anything like guarantee such an outcome.
Beyond that I don't think I am all that interested in anything more subtle and secure than our penthouse in Karag Nar, special rooms included. In fact, going over board with something like this might have the opposite results from what we'd hope to get by going all out on Order or Preservation. Like imagine if a couple generations from now some guild or organization with their own private section dies out. Suddenly the secret room behind the high security room behind the private room literally becomes nothing more than an inaccessible section of thick wall full of forever lost knowledge. Putting a focus on secure and secretive compartmentalization would also make cross referencing a nightmare as the library grows in size and prestige.
In conclusion, I am split between Comfort, Order and Holy. Comfort because I feel like it is the least likely to be covered enough by the baseline. Order because it matters so much and I don't actually know if the baseline is or isn't enough. And Holy because it might be the most fun story/game wise with the most impact on the Quest itself. Security has pros and cons and thus narrowly loses out to my top three. And Preservation and Capacity seem like unnecessary overkill to me.
Being able to store literally every written work and then some is not just overkill, but overkill to an insane and truly unreasonable degree. The Old World currently doesn't even have access to basic geographic facts about the far east or far west, let alone being able to source translated texts from there by the wagonload. If society ever reaches the point where anything like that is even remotely considerable, said society will also be easily able to just construct a second even grander library.
This is maybe the only one where I fear that "reasonable" for Dwarves doesn't much differ from "reasonable" for anyone else. A baseline Dwarven library of import is larger, more secure and better ordered than any contemporary Human library and it is magically enchanted with book protecting runes on top of that. But is it really any more comfortable than, say, the library in Altdorf?
Also look at the text. Most other options mention truly outlandish things, barely conceivable as physically possible without magic. But this stuff here. That's just a normal amount of awesome. Hell, it could be the description of any fancy shopping mall. Except, you know, with publicly accessible books.
So the pros and cons of this option are two sides of the same coin as I see it. On the one hand it might be the largest proportional improvement from baseline. Because while with the other options the Dwarven architects will entusiastically nod along when told to use even more of the budget for the thing they kinda wanted to do anyway, here they might well be going "She cares about what? Well, if she says so we'll just try to reallly really give her what she wants I guess" and go above and beyond on something they might otherwise barely have thought about. On the other hand that also means that we maybe won't see anything mind-boggingly insane by our own standards as players. Just, you know, an awesome comfortable library that's unprecedented in the Old World specifically, but whose other features (Dwarven size and security) still matter more to us than the one we chose to emphasize.
The main appeal I see for this from a different angle than the reasons I have for liking the other options. With everything else I am drawn by how I see the library from an IC viewpoint, if I were to actually insert myself in that universe and advocate for what I want to have constructed for me. But here I would be voting OOC for what it might do for the story. This option probably has the highest potential to lead to surprises and plot hooks, as well as bringing the struggle of the Gods to the screen and being the one that would most intrigue and involve Cython.
I am most torn about this one. A lot of arguments by other players were very convincing to me. Order is definitely vital to any library of considerable size. All else being equal this seems like the most important option. But I am not sure that all else is equal. I simply don't know if Dwarven "reasonable" amounts of Order aren't already more than enough, the way that Dwarven "reasonable" Capacity and Preservation are.
Another massive overkill, if not as massive as the capacity one. At least in Warhammer something like a Time of Woes calamity or a Hold subjugating Waaagh are not at all unprecedented. And while many other players emphasize that it's more important that the library actually serves people before it is sealed due to the fall of K8P, the idea that millennia from now during the second reconquest someone finds an intact library with priceless collections of ancient knowledge certainly appeals to me.
But, well, we already know that K8P's furniture storage was secure enough for the wooden items inside to be found intact. I can't imagine that our library will be less secure than that. Or even than the vaunted vault.
Beyond that, given that this is Warhammer, even this overkill of Preservation is not enough anyway. It probably wouldn't survive an End Times like event, which might well happen within the next couple centuries. And surviving any less total extinction events (of the kind that just eradicates all Order races from the face of the earth) isn't really all that useful either, for all that vampire society might eventually delight in it. And it doesn't even protect from more internal societal calamities or sabotage like Chaos corruption and the like.
The main appeal of this one for me is that it increases the chance of eventually convincing even Dwarven Guilds and mages of differing traditions to store written knowledge here for posteriority. But it only increases the chance, it doesn't do anything like guarantee such an outcome.
Beyond that I don't think I am all that interested in anything more subtle and secure than our penthouse in Karag Nar, special rooms included. In fact, going over board with something like this might have the opposite results from what we'd hope to get by going all out on Order or Preservation. Like imagine if a couple generations from now some guild or organization with their own private section dies out. Suddenly the secret room behind the high security room behind the private room literally becomes nothing more than an inaccessible section of thick wall full of forever lost knowledge. Putting a focus on secure and secretive compartmentalization would also make cross referencing a nightmare as the library grows in size and prestige.
In conclusion, I am split between Comfort, Order and Holy. Comfort because I feel like it is the least likely to be covered enough by the baseline. Order because it matters so much and I don't actually know if the baseline is or isn't enough. And Holy because it might be the most fun story/game wise with the most impact on the Quest itself. Security has pros and cons and thus narrowly loses out to my top three. And Preservation and Capacity seem like unnecessary overkill to me.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Some of your quote tags are messed up there.
minimap_op
plsnerf
- Location
- Lower Lefthand Corner
[X] Order
[X] Order
Zedman7054
Eternally 3rd
- Location
- United States
[X] Order
[X] Comfort
[X] Comfort
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Do you really think that the Crown of K8P keeps budgets that meticulously separate? It's still an unelected monarchy with the ruling Clan being involved in governing on all levels. Like, take the contents of that amazing vault for instance. I'm pretty sure that in practice a part of that wealth will be used for our Boon. I also believe that whether those contents belong to Belegar and his heirs now or whether they belong to the secret budget of K8P the nation is academic at best. I also have no idea whether the taxes Belegar collects are considered more akin to a mutual fund for nation-wide defense and prosperity that the King and his Clan only administer and oversee or whether they are at least in part also something analogous to rent paid to benevolent and noble (in both senses of the word) land lords that actually care about their tenants.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think I'm going to add [Holy] to my vote. I like the idea of it for a few reasons.
First, we can be pretty sure that we, personally, feature in a number of the plotter's plots. And tweaking the setting up of a library is a great way to sow landmines if you have some future sight. So bringing in other gods to guard.
Second, more generally, Mathilde is a pious person and we are asking for the result of the single greatest thing a human could really have offered to them in setting: a rich as balls dwarf king who will literally mortgage his kingdom for your asking. And we want a bastion of knowledge, or rather, a temple of books. I think Mathilde would try to square that in herself by looking at the religious implications, and she has a good case to be Ranald's St Ambassador to other gods. First the kieslavite(?) Pantheon, now Verena. (Subbing piety for diplomacy seems to have worked out well for us...) And in that vein, our heir presumptive is a shallayn, which is a goddess we've only really encountered through her touch on Heidi. So queue that up for next...
Last, I personally think that I tend to keep libraries as strictly secular places as an ideal in my head because of my view of the world. But in WHF, I think I'd like to bow a bit more to the textual nature of the world. The integration of religion into things is important because the world explicitly works like that, so leaning into it adds versimilatude.
It is likely from context, and it adds a real question of what Ranald was doing down there, or hoping to find.
I'm unclear on timelines, exactly. The first war against chaos was when the Neheikaran gods were still alive, right?
Ohhhh... See, I picture Mathilde as having a semi-hysterical internal monologue and a deadpan exterior most of the time, so an actress who can do both? My pick would be Arryn Zech.
Booooo arrows, booooo! We want wibbly wobblyness!
First, we can be pretty sure that we, personally, feature in a number of the plotter's plots. And tweaking the setting up of a library is a great way to sow landmines if you have some future sight. So bringing in other gods to guard.
Second, more generally, Mathilde is a pious person and we are asking for the result of the single greatest thing a human could really have offered to them in setting: a rich as balls dwarf king who will literally mortgage his kingdom for your asking. And we want a bastion of knowledge, or rather, a temple of books. I think Mathilde would try to square that in herself by looking at the religious implications, and she has a good case to be Ranald's St Ambassador to other gods. First the kieslavite(?) Pantheon, now Verena. (Subbing piety for diplomacy seems to have worked out well for us...) And in that vein, our heir presumptive is a shallayn, which is a goddess we've only really encountered through her touch on Heidi. So queue that up for next...
Last, I personally think that I tend to keep libraries as strictly secular places as an ideal in my head because of my view of the world. But in WHF, I think I'd like to bow a bit more to the textual nature of the world. The integration of religion into things is important because the world explicitly works like that, so leaning into it adds versimilatude.
It is likely from context, and it adds a real question of what Ranald was doing down there, or hoping to find.
I'm unclear on timelines, exactly. The first war against chaos was when the Neheikaran gods were still alive, right?
Ohhhh... See, I picture Mathilde as having a semi-hysterical internal monologue and a deadpan exterior most of the time, so an actress who can do both? My pick would be Arryn Zech.
Booooo arrows, booooo! We want wibbly wobblyness!
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The first Chaos incursion ended around -4400 IC when Caledor Dragontamer created the Vortex.
Nehekhara united for the first time under Settra in -2500 IC, and Nagash was born around -2000 IC.
In general, most events in the setting came after the first Chaos incursion.
(Also, I don't think the Nehekharan gods are dead, and I'm not sure what source people are drawing on to say they are)
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I do think they keep them that separate. For one, whether someone owes a debt to the Clan or to the Kingdom is important to Dwarfs. As is knowing whether the Kingdom or the Clan should bear the cost of paying something back. The Dwarfs insistence on knowing these sorts of things means I would be very surprised if they didn't maintain separate records for these things, even if all the money itself just sits in one giant pile in a vault somewhere.
I should also point out that I suspect many if not most nobles of the Empire likely also maintain separate records of what funds they obtain by tax compared to say, investment, or trade or whatever if only because knowing where your money is coming from is just good business. They're just much less likely to maintain separate 'accounts' as it were to pay people back with.
I know it's a plot point in End Times, but am unsure if it turned up before then.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Has the spider silk still not worked out yet? Until it does K8P isn't actually "rich as balls" just a huge amount of gold from the vaults and from trade passing though. Lots of money, but they also have big expensives repairing the hold. Once the spider silk goes through then they will be "rich as balls".
Edit:
I am interested in how this library will affect the composition of the settlers coming to K8P. Normally we would expect them to mostly be people fleeing from somewhere else in hopes of safety or merchants wanting to get closer to the trade road. However the library might bring some scholars over.
Edit:
I am interested in how this library will affect the composition of the settlers coming to K8P. Normally we would expect them to mostly be people fleeing from somewhere else in hopes of safety or merchants wanting to get closer to the trade road. However the library might bring some scholars over.
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After a bit of thought, I'll vote comfort. I just love the idea that when K8P will be a multi-million inhabitants cosmopolitan metropolis, it will appeal to people that might not visit a library but would because it's the nicest place to be in the whole Karak.
I wonder something like this might work :
[] Accessibility
Make sure that even if hundreds or thousands of people visit the library at the same time it will be able to accomodate them all and see their needs fullfilled. Facilitate the use of the library's contents by people from afar through the exchange of documents and creation of copies.
[x] Comfort
I wonder something like this might work :
[] Accessibility
Make sure that even if hundreds or thousands of people visit the library at the same time it will be able to accomodate them all and see their needs fullfilled. Facilitate the use of the library's contents by people from afar through the exchange of documents and creation of copies.
[x] Comfort
somewhatLazy
Serial Procrastinator
- Location
- lurking
[x] Order
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Thank you. Huh. Then when Ranald ran away to the south and apparently pretended to be a snake for a while, we have no other information on what that pantheon was doing or if it fought? That's too bad.
Sure.
Compared to the baseline of 'we bricked up the windows because otherwise we would have had to pay a tax on them, so bring your own candles', a fancy shopping mall would be unimaginable decadence.
IIRC that 'furniture storage' was a vault, because the furniture was made out of the long-extinct wutroth.
This seems like two focuses in one, combining Comfort with the previously-suggested Distribution.
[x] Security
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The plural of book is not library - we expect it to survive because it is part of a dwarfhold, so our focus should be on the good it can do in the world.
Order is about accessibility. Been said.
Security makes it a more trustworthy repository of restricted information, which expands what sorts of knowledge we'll be capable of importing to these halls.
Distribution is also about accessibility... but honestly, I think interested institutions will bring their own scribes, perhaps? Being sure couldn't hurt, but this is a distant third for me.
[x] Order
[x] Security
[x] Distribution
Order is about accessibility. Been said.
Security makes it a more trustworthy repository of restricted information, which expands what sorts of knowledge we'll be capable of importing to these halls.
Distribution is also about accessibility... but honestly, I think interested institutions will bring their own scribes, perhaps? Being sure couldn't hurt, but this is a distant third for me.
[x] Order
[x] Security
[x] Distribution
- Location
- California
[x] Order
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Friendly reminder that Boney has confirmed that literacy is only widespread among Dwarves, because the cultural factors that led to widespread literacy in IRL Western history do not apply in WHF (specifically, the Protestant Reformation's focus on everybody being able to read the Bible for themselves, and the Catholics subsequently adjusting doctrine to compensate). As fascinating as I find the idea of exploring what constitutes Dwarven fiction, that fact is still probably worth hanging onto.
I've seen a couple of people mention things like this. I would advise surrendering this hope now. The point of guild secrets, whether Dwarven or wizardly, is not to keep the knowledge from everybody else (as in, from the general public). It is to keep the knowledge from anybody else - as in, anybody who isn't a member of that guild. I'm highly dubious that the prospect of the knowledge being really secure in the hands of somebody who is not a member of that guild would be a draw. Especially in the case of Dwarven guilds, as Boney has confirmed several times that a), Dwarven guild secrets are never written down in the first place, and b), knowledge being lost, if not passed on through a master-apprentice system where the master identifies and teaches a "worthy" apprentice, is regarded as a feature rather than a bug in Dwarven culture.
- Location
- Florida
[X] Order