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Ah, I'm wrong I think. Technically, Lady Magister Mathilde doesn't pay taxes, but Knight of Stirland Mathilde pays taxes to Roswita from her estate I believe. So does Shareholder Mathilde of the EIC pay commercial taxes. Loremaster Mathilde might also be paying taxes to Belegar I don't know.

All of Mathilde's hats confuse things.
 
Ah, I'm wrong I think. Technically, Lady Magister Mathilde doesn't pay taxes, but Knight of Stirland Mathilde pays taxes to Roswita from her estate I believe. So does Shareholder Mathilde of the EIC pay commercial taxes. Loremaster Mathilde might also be paying taxes to Belegar I don't know.

All of Mathilde's hats confuse things.
No kidding, you haven't even mentioned her most famous witch hunter hat.
 
No kidding, you haven't even mentioned her most famous witch hunter hat.
Speaking of hats, Altdorf actually has this:

"these laws govern all sorts of activities, including who one may marry, which city gate one can use, and even what type of hat one can wear."

I actually think it would be funny if it was technically illegal for Mathilde to wear a Witch Hunter hat in Altdorf but nobody is stupid enough to actually try to enforce it.
 
Income tax rate in the Empire is a flat 10% for anyone that lives in a village or larger. The rest of the taxes would generally take the form of polls, tolls, license fees, tariffs, tithes, and guild dues.

Except, it doesn't seem logical to me that a city can survive constant riots. Occasional ones, understandable, but at what point do the riots get to the place where society is no longer reasonably capable of surviving?

Constantinople had riots fairly often, usually relating to chariot races, including one that left tens of thousands dead, destroyed the Hagia Sofia, and resulted in the Emperor being besieged in his own palace. It still lasted a decently long time. For all that Altdorf is described as stupendously riotous, the fact that the ones that actually required a military response are rare enough to be named seems to indicate that most of them would be closer to minor rowdiness than all-out revolt.
 
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Except, it doesn't seem logical to me that a city can survive constant riots. Occasional ones, understandable, but at what point do the riots get to the place where society is no longer reasonably capable of surviving?
Once again, I will remind you of the existence of


Meme aside, Paris has weekly protests which turn violent about twice a month (I don't want to use the word "riot" because that's conservative talking points, but...). Local law enforcement gets really good at civilian brutality, at making sure riots happen in the same areas every time, and at warning local shops to close up on Saturdays.
The size of the city matters too. Riots that only hit a tenth of a city with 1 million plus inhabitants? You could have those twice a week basically forever as long as it always hits the same neighborhoods.

(I post this exact joke surprisingly often in this thread. Starting to feel a little weirded out)
 
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Once again, I will remind you of the existence of


Meme aside, Paris has weekly protests which turn violent about twice a month (I don't want to use the word "riot" because that's conservative talking points, but...). Local law enforcement gets really good at civilian brutality, at making sure riots happen in the same areas every time, and at warning local shops to close up on Saturdays.
The size of the city matters too. Riots that only hit a tenth of a city with 1 million plus inhabitants? You could have those twice a week basically forever as long as it always hits the same neighborhoods.

(I post this exact joke surprisingly often in this thread. Starting to feel a little weirded out)
I try my best to forget that country exists. Thanks for the info.
 
So I'm reading Spires of Altdorf, and I have a question. I really don't know much about taxation and especially taxation history due to unique circumstances of the country I live in, but is this:

"Ordinary folk can expect to pay out as much as half their earnings to the state. Most pay just under a third of their coin in tax, but a rare few enjoy some sort of protected status."

Is this a reasonable tax policy for Altdorfers? I think I can do the math myself, but it's a bit bothersome so I'm just going by feeling. Half/one third of your earnings seems unbelievably harsh, to the extent that the average Altdorfer might struggle to live. The next line actually says that this is the reason why the citizenry of Altdorf riot at the drop of a hat.

Except, it doesn't seem logical to me that a city can survive constant riots. Occasional ones, understandable, but at what point do the riots get to the place where society is no longer reasonably capable of surviving?

It depends on how much of the economy is cash based, and how much this reflects apprentices mostly being paid in guild scrip not coin and labourers mainly receiving their daily bread and broth.

If the state (in the person of the Prince) owns most of the land, then rent could well be part of what they pay, making it much more sensible.
 
It's worth keeping in mind that there are riots an then there are riots, not all forms of unrest are the same, I mean just look at ancient Rome, riots were common enough even in relatively calm stretches that they were a normal part of the political process.

It is the concept of the peaceful protest that is strange in the contest of history, violence is the norm when looking back and it is a way for the populace to communicate with those who would otherwise have no cause or interest to heed them.

Basically: 'I say old chap the hoi poloi are throwing more rocks than rotting vegetables today, I think we should tone down the bread tax'. :V
 
Also, roman political philosophers considered the frequent riots to be part of what made rome great, kept the balance between the rable and the ruling class you see. If I remember correctly. And they were not so bad, only a few people killed per riot they remarked.
 
There's actually a very interesting event in Altdorf mentioned in Shades of Empire. It's not really a "riot", but it's somewhat related? The name of the event is actuall The Night of the Black Waltz.

Paraphrasing what happened, the Night happened when the Colleges were first legalised. People were super mad and starting riots all over.

Then one day, on a day where Morrisleb was full, a fog rose from the river over the Docklands of Altdorf. Many of the citizens of the Docklands took to the streets and danced incredibly vigorously in a way that they've never done before, just continuing on and on to a tune that only they could hear. Anyone who tried to stop them was ignored or trampled under the press of bodies, and they kept going through the night until they collapsed dead.

Then Priests of Morr and black armored knights wandered the streets. They staked the bodies of everyone who died, regardless of whether they danced or not, blessed them, decapitated them and took their bodies away on plague carts.

This event killed the furies of the mobs who wanted to riot over the Colleges.

I'm still not really sure what caused this. There is a ritual with a somewhat similar effect called "The Dance Without End" that involves cursing one person with endless dancing. Anyone who watches the Dancing person must resist a difficult willpower test or start dancing without end too.

My first thought was that a Wizard from the Colleges cast this spell on someone to terrify the populace into submission, but I'm not so sure. Seems pretty extreme. Also, there is the whole Priests of Morr being involved in there, which has nothing to do with the ritual, so maybe I'm on a completely wrong track and it's just a consequence of Morrisleb+the recent magical infusion of the colleges causing wonky stuff.
 
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They staked the bodies of everyone who died, regardless of whether they died or not, blessed them, decapitated them and took their bodies away on plague carts.

Actually, this bit makes me think Vampires were probably involved somewhere. Then again, this being the WHF Empire, there's always Vampires involved somewhere.
 
There's actually a very interesting event in Altdorf mentioned in Shades of Empire. It's not really a "riot", but it's somewhat related? The name of the event is actuall The Night of the Black Waltz.

Paraphrasing what happened, the Night happened when the Colleges were first legalised. People were super mad and starting riots all over.

Then one day, on a day where Morrisleb was full, a fog rose from the river over the Docklands of Altdorf. Many of the citizens of the Docklands took to the streets and danced incredibly vigorously in a way that they've never done before, just continuing on and on to a tune that only they could hear. Anyone who tried to stop them was ignored or trampled under the press of bodies, and they kept going through the night until they collapsed dead.

Then Priests of Morr and black armored knights wandered the streets. They staked the bodies of everyone who died, regardless of whether they danced or not, blessed them, decapitated them and took their bodies away on plague carts.

This event killed the furies of the mobs who wanted to riot over the Colleges.

I'm still not really sure what caused this. There is a ritual with a somewhat similar effect called "The Dance Without End" that involves cursing one person with endless dancing. Anyone who watches the Dancing person must resist a difficult willpower test or start dancing without end too.

My first thought was that a Wizard from the Colleges cast this spell on someone to terrify the populace into submission, but I'm not so sure. Seems pretty extreme. Also, there is the whole Priests of Morr being involved in there, which has nothing to do with the ritual, so maybe I'm on a completely wrong track and it's just a consequence of Morrisleb+the recent magical infusion of the colleges causing wonky stuff.

Given the is was the survival of the colleges at stake I think the colleges trying to use magic to calm the mob seems entirely in character and if a few of the people baying for their blood happened to die in the process... well i suspect the wizards would bear the 'burden' of it with great fortitude
 
Possibly that event was the inspiration for the ritual.
I'm honestly not sure the College invented that ritual. I mean, what use could they put it to? It just seems needlessly malicious and convoluted/inefficient. If you can cast the ritual, you can just kill someone. The only reason you'd want to use it is to spread chaos, fear, psychological warfare and torture. The fact that the Dance's spread is uncontained makes it very unfortunate, because if you use it in any public space you'll get bystanders involved. I don't think every Magister cares about morality, but I do think they care about image, and this spell doesn't produce a good one.

It seems very inefficient for the Colleges. I could see it being invented by a horrible person who wanted to torture an entire community and the Colleges came across it and recorded it though.
 
Speaking of hats, Altdorf actually has this:

"these laws govern all sorts of activities, including who one may marry, which city gate one can use, and even what type of hat one can wear."

I actually think it would be funny if it was technically illegal for Mathilde to wear a Witch Hunter hat in Altdorf but nobody is stupid enough to actually try to enforce it.
"Thats clearly an illegal hat violation."
"Look, she's either a Witch Hunter, or a Grey Witch, or both, or just stupid enough to piss off the Witch Hunters and the Colleges. Frankly I don't like those odds for us."
E:
There's actually a very interesting event in Altdorf mentioned in Shades of Empire. It's not really a "riot", but it's somewhat related? The name of the event is actuall The Night of the Black Waltz.

Paraphrasing what happened, the Night happened when the Colleges were first legalised. People were super mad and starting riots all over.

Then one day, on a day where Morrisleb was full, a fog rose from the river over the Docklands of Altdorf. Many of the citizens of the Docklands took to the streets and danced incredibly vigorously in a way that they've never done before, just continuing on and on to a tune that only they could hear. Anyone who tried to stop them was ignored or trampled under the press of bodies, and they kept going through the night until they collapsed dead.

Then Priests of Morr and black armored knights wandered the streets. They staked the bodies of everyone who died, regardless of whether they danced or not, blessed them, decapitated them and took their bodies away on plague carts.

This event killed the furies of the mobs who wanted to riot over the Colleges.

I'm still not really sure what caused this. There is a ritual with a somewhat similar effect called "The Dance Without End" that involves cursing one person with endless dancing. Anyone who watches the Dancing person must resist a difficult willpower test or start dancing without end too.

My first thought was that a Wizard from the Colleges cast this spell on someone to terrify the populace into submission, but I'm not so sure. Seems pretty extreme. Also, there is the whole Priests of Morr being involved in there, which has nothing to do with the ritual, so maybe I'm on a completely wrong track and it's just a consequence of Morrisleb+the recent magical infusion of the colleges causing wonky stuff.
On a meta level, its probably a reference to Dancing mania - Wikipedia
 
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Ah, I'm wrong I think. Technically, Lady Magister Mathilde doesn't pay taxes, but Knight of Stirland Mathilde pays taxes to Roswita from her estate I believe. So does Shareholder Mathilde of the EIC pay commercial taxes. Loremaster Mathilde might also be paying taxes to Belegar I don't know.

All of Mathilde's hats confuse things.

Yeah, that might work. Us as a Wizard doesn't pay taxes, but us as a knight does. Reminds me of a bit from another quest over on SB:

"Yes, but it might be for something else," Marionette speaks softly from next to Cheral, "Princess, underneath Zelda vas Hylia you are technically Duchess Zelda vas Lawren, correct."

You frown at that bit of ancient trivia.

"Yes, that was the title of my ancestor when he ascended to the Hylia name."

"Well, while no one can accuse Zelda vas Hylia of failing in her duties, they could accuse Zelda vas Lawren."

"That's impossible," you protest, "Zelda vas Lawren doesn't hold... any... lands..."

"That's bullshit," Karkariko comments, "They can't make that work, can they?"

"I'm not saying that that's the purpose," Marionette holds up her hands, "but its legally feasible that you could have your background title stripped from you and if you're not a noble you can't be a royal."

Basically, it makes things really complicated really fast, so odds are our current Elector Count is basically just leaving it be to avoid untangling that thorny issue which might start setting precedent she might not like. Especially since it also involves the Colleges, which just makes it 10 times more complex.


Then one day, on a day where Morrisleb was full, a fog rose from the river over the Docklands of Altdorf. Many of the citizens of the Docklands took to the streets and danced incredibly vigorously in a way that they've never done before, just continuing on and on to a tune that only they could hear. Anyone who tried to stop them was ignored or trampled under the press of bodies, and they kept going through the night until they collapsed dead.

Then Priests of Morr and black armored knights wandered the streets. They staked the bodies of everyone who died, regardless of whether they danced or not, blessed them, decapitated them and took their bodies away on plague carts.

I mean, there is some RL parallels, so it could be that, or something else entirely.

Actually, this bit makes me think Vampires were probably involved somewhere. Then again, this being the WHF Empire, there's always Vampires involved somewhere.
That or the Cult was just not willing to take chances, and figured even if there wasn't vampires, best to get rid of all the potential zombies any vampire in the city could raise up. Save them a lot of headaches down the line and all that.
 
I'm honestly not sure the College invented that ritual. I mean, what use could they put it to? It just seems needlessly malicious and convoluted/inefficient. If you can cast the ritual, you can just kill someone. The only reason you'd want to use it is to spread chaos, fear, psychological warfare and torture. The fact that the Dance's spread is uncontained makes it very unfortunate, because if you use it in any public space you'll get bystanders involved. I don't think every Magister cares about morality, but I do think they care about image, and this spell doesn't produce a good one.

It seems very inefficient for the Colleges. I could see it being invented by a horrible person who wanted to torture an entire community and the Colleges came across it and recorded it though.
It seems very useful for attacking fortresses actually. One spell, then wait and watch as the fortress falls apart. The Colleges are primarily designed to supplement the Empire's military forces after all. Not the mention the "I saw a phenomena and want to recreate it to prove I can" thing, which definitely exists.
 
It seems very useful for attacking fortresses actually. One spell, then wait and watch as the fortress falls apart. The Colleges are primarily designed to supplement the Empire's military forces after all. Not the mention the "I saw a phenomena and want to recreate it to prove I can" thing, which definitely exists.

It could free a whole mountain from greenskins to be fair
 
I think it's reasonable if you assume it's a combination of every tax, rather than just what we'd call income tax. So a lot of it is done under sales tax instead.
Technically speaking 33%-50% taxation is, at least in theory, believeable. That's roughly what we pay here in Denmark*, and people are plenty capable of surviving here. And we do also have a 25% sales tax in addition to that.
*Is what I would say if I earned enough to pay taxes...

Of course, whether or not a society on the Empire's technological level could do it I have absolutely no idea, and I like to believe Denmark in general has a better welfare system than a civilisation that still relies on barber-surgeons, but still, there's a precedent.
 
In a way it is a good thing this world is much less densely populated then our world. I suspect that using that ritual in modern England might take out the whole country.
1) England has huge stretches of country side. The only way it could take out a whole country is if the entire place is one big city.
2) People can resist with willpower checks, so it's not a surefire kill method. Great for distraction, great for disproportionate numbers, not a surefire way to take out a country.
 
The only reason not to explain matters is that it would be mildly embarrassing to explain that the King of Ulthuan is no longer the King of all Elves.
To be fair, I think "mildly embarrassing" is underselling it a bit. If the Dwarves had the option of pretending the Dawi Zharr didn't exist to outsiders, I think there's at least a fair chance they'd take it. One thing the Dwarves and Elves have always had in common is debilitating excesses of pride, and part of that is not wanting to confess your greatest shames to outsiders.

That said, Caledor II did still handle it like a git.
Now I want a setting in which research and historical studies have unearthed the authors hand and "the universe suddenly wants X to happen" is a known quantity people watch out for.
Can I interest you in A Practical Guide to Evil? The setting is one where story tropes are as real as the laws of physics, and potentially have equally lethal consequences for those who fall afoul of them.
It could free a whole mountain from greenskins to be fair
Literally anyone who sees this can get sucked into the ritual. Would you want to bet on greenskins not being tough enough to last long enough to reach a human population center? I mean, imagine giving a report like this:

Wizard: Good news and bad news, my Emperor.
Emperor: ...Good news first, please.
Wizard: Our ritual appears to have successfully cleansed Karak Ungor.
Emperor: That's amazing! Surely the bad news must pale in comparison.
Wizard: Aha, well, about that. The ritual has also accidentally wiped out Ostermark. And it's still spreading. Apparently Grimgor Ironhide is now known by the greenskins as The Dancing Git, and he is... unamused. And keen on attacking the Empire in retribution. Evidently, it's proving difficult to fight him when laying eyes on him sucks soldiers into the ritual's effects.
Emperor: ...
Wizard: ...My liege?
Emperor: The Grand Theogonist was right. Wizards were a mistake.
 
To be fair, I think "mildly embarrassing" is underselling it a bit. If the Dwarves had the option of pretending the Dawi Zharr didn't exist to outsiders, I think there's at least a fair chance they'd take it. One thing the Dwarves and Elves have always had in common is debilitating excesses of pride, and part of that is not wanting to confess your greatest shames to outsiders.

That said, Caledor II did still handle it like a git.

Can I interest you in A Practical Guide to Evil? The setting is one where story tropes are as real as the laws of physics, and potentially have equally lethal consequences for those who fall afoul of them.

Literally anyone who sees this can get sucked into the ritual. Would you want to bet on greenskins not being tough enough to last long enough to reach a human population center? I mean, imagine giving a report like this:

Wizard: Good news and bad news, my Emperor.
Emperor: ...Good news first, please.
Wizard: Our ritual appears to have successfully cleansed Karak Ungor.
Emperor: That's amazing! Surely the bad news must pale in comparison.
Wizard: Aha, well, about that. The ritual has also accidentally wiped out Ostermark. And it's still spreading. Apparently Grimgor Ironhide is now known by the greenskins as The Dancing Git, and he is... unamused. And keen on attacking the Empire in retribution. Evidently, it's proving difficult to fight him when laying eyes on him sucks soldiers into the ritual's effects.
Emperor: ...
Wizard: ...My liege?
Emperor: The Grand Theogonist was right. Wizards were a mistake.

They may be greenskins, but even they can't walk all the way to mordor while dancing and without food
 
There's actually a very interesting event in Altdorf mentioned in Shades of Empire. It's not really a "riot", but it's somewhat related? The name of the event is actuall The Night of the Black Waltz.

Paraphrasing what happened, the Night happened when the Colleges were first legalised. People were super mad and starting riots all over.

Then one day, on a day where Morrisleb was full, a fog rose from the river over the Docklands of Altdorf. Many of the citizens of the Docklands took to the streets and danced incredibly vigorously in a way that they've never done before, just continuing on and on to a tune that only they could hear. Anyone who tried to stop them was ignored or trampled under the press of bodies, and they kept going through the night until they collapsed dead.

Then Priests of Morr and black armored knights wandered the streets. They staked the bodies of everyone who died, regardless of whether they danced or not, blessed them, decapitated them and took their bodies away on plague carts.

This event killed the furies of the mobs who wanted to riot over the Colleges.

I'm still not really sure what caused this. There is a ritual with a somewhat similar effect called "The Dance Without End" that involves cursing one person with endless dancing. Anyone who watches the Dancing person must resist a difficult willpower test or start dancing without end too.

My first thought was that a Wizard from the Colleges cast this spell on someone to terrify the populace into submission, but I'm not so sure. Seems pretty extreme. Also, there is the whole Priests of Morr being involved in there, which has nothing to do with the ritual, so maybe I'm on a completely wrong track and it's just a consequence of Morrisleb+the recent magical infusion of the colleges causing wonky stuff.

This seems based on a real event, a sort of mass hysteria or possibly a neurological disease, that swept Europe in the Renaissance, only this has a bit of a supernatural twist (or does it?)

EDIT: Weber'd
 
They may be greenskins, but even they can't walk all the way to mordor while dancing and without food
Without food? Why without food? They don't need their arms to dance, they can still carry shit and/or load it onto beasts of burden.

Relatedly, saying "they don't need their arms to dance" makes me picture Grimgor Ironhide angrily riverdancing into the Empire to dance his way to vengeance and YOU WILL NOT TAKE THIS FROM ME
 
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